[jjcha]

I'll be the first person to say that it really doesn't matter.  I think I have an old post here about listening to a HD600 straight out of the iPod.  But having said that, I will say when trying for that last 5%, it does matter.  It actually matters a lot.  I'm here listening to my speaker rig fed by my Grace m902 DAC and I am seriously missing the Chord DAC64 rig I sold a few years back.  There's a certain 3D-ness from my old speaker rig that this setup right now just does not capture.
 
So take it for what you will.  Most adequately manufactured audio equipment will competently produce pleasurable audio.  But producing that extra step that pushes the experience to that additional step, to give the illusion of reality, the equipment does matter.  I miss my old speaker rig.  I also recognize the awesomeness of tjkurita's amp and senn headphone rig as well as jaybar's Stax/Ayre setup. 
 
Actually, in this regard, I should dig up the old Qualia 010 which matched well with the m902...
 
Best,
 
-Jason

 

[Divvy]

Quote:

What kind of equipment have you been listening to?
 

Musical Fidelity V-DAC, Asus Xonar D2X, Asus Xonar Essence STX, Creative X-Fi XtremeMusic, Integrated Realtek audio codec, Heed Canamp, Sennheiser HD650's, AKG K701's. The only one that produced a definite audible difference was the Realtek compared to the other DAC's. All the rest are very difficult to tell apart. The V-DAC might sound a bit more lush than the rest, which could be related to the less exceptional harmonic distortion measurements. Or maybe I'm just imagining it. In any case, switching between DACs and amps always has me trying hard to find differences and when I think I do, I always end up doubting whether they're imagined or real. In the case of different headphones and speakers, the differences are clear beyond any shadow of doubt.
 
I will soon be adding HD-800's to the list, but I have little doubt my perceptions will remain the same.

 

[mikemalter]

Quote:

Quote:

What kind of equipment have you been listening to?
 

Musical Fidelity V-DAC, Asus Xonar D2X, Asus Xonar Essence STX, Creative X-Fi XtremeMusic, Integrated Realtek audio codec, Heed Canamp, Sennheiser HD650's, AKG K701's. The only one that produced a definite audible difference was the Realtek compared to the other DAC's. All the rest are very difficult to tell apart. The V-DAC might sound a bit more lush than the rest, which could be related to the less exceptional harmonic distortion measurements. Or maybe I'm just imagining it. In any case, switching between DACs and amps always has me trying hard to find differences and when I think I do, I always end up doubting whether they're imagined or real. In the case of different headphones and speakers, the differences are clear beyond any shadow of doubt.
 
I will soon be adding HD-800's to the list, but I have little doubt my perceptions will remain the same.

I'm trying to sort out what you are saying so I can give you an answer to your issue of all equipment sounding the same.
 
From what I see, you are basically sourcing music from a windows computer through a sound card to a DAC to your headphone amp.
 
Also, you are making a comparison to Realtek in terms of other DAC's.  Isn't Realtek a soundcard driver?
 
Also, I am not sure what you mean by, "less exceptional harmonic distortion measurements."  Are you listening to the music, or measuring something else?
 
From my perspective, when I use my laptop to source music (I have a Realtek driver and use either Media Monkey or J River as my output manager) there is an immediate drop in audio quality.  I did purchase a Monarchy DIP which sits between my computer and DAC which basically reclocks the signal and reduces jitter to result in better audio quality. 
 
My question to you is why do you care about the differences, imagined or real, between equipment?  It is not clear to me what you are trying to accomplish.
 
A Musical Fidelity V-DAC with a pair of Sennheiser HD650's are a really good combination.  I'm not familiar at all with Heed, but from their website that they are making phono stages and turntable power supplies tells me they have a solid engineering base.  I can see from their website that the Canamp got an award from Hi-Fi magazine, so that has to be good.  You should have a really nice setup.
 
If you wanted to get the most out of it, I would focus on your media server on your PC and what works best with your operating system and sound card.  My limited understanding is that WSAPI is the best protocol to use in that it allows your media server to manage your sound card drivers directly and gets as much of the operating system as possible out of the way.  I think this is only available on Windows 7, prior to that audio quaility on a PC is limited because of operating system conflicts with sound card drivers.  A lot of this got ironed out in Windows 7 as os designers had audio quality as a requirement where before it was a factor low in priority.
 
What is the resolution of your music?  Some media servers will allow you to increase sampling frequency and bit length to present something that your DAC can handle.  What is the highest frequency and bit length can your DAC handle, and are you sending that?
 
I would also look into something like the Monarchy DIP that will reclock your signal which will really clean it up. I would think you are using coax to come out of your sound card and something like the DIP can help.
 
Hope this was helpful to you.  Apologies if this went somewhere that was not what you were looking for.

 

[Currawong]

With different DACs, you'll either get tonal differences, or a difference in overall resolution.  However, the latter requires sufficiently capable headphones and amp to discern.  With a group of mid-range DACs (or proabably amps for that matter) there probably wont be a lot of difference between them.  You'd hope that if you spent a lot more money on a DAC than your current one that you'd get a noticeable increase in resolution though.  I did experiment with using a pair of older, cheaper headphones to try the different gear I have and there wasn't a lot of difference. I was mainly seeing how I might have felt if I had been starting from scratch now, versus back in 2007, by buying a combo DAC/amp as an upgrade from straight out of my computer.

 

[mikemalter]

Quote:

With different DACs, you'll either get tonal differences, or a difference in overall resolution.  However, the latter requires sufficiently capable headphones and amp to discern.  With a group of mid-range DACs (or proabably amps for that matter) there probably wont be a lot of difference between them.  You'd hope that if you spent a lot more money on a DAC than your current one that you'd get a noticeable increase in resolution though.  I did experiment with using a pair of older, cheaper headphones to try the different gear I have and there wasn't a lot of difference. I was mainly seeing how I might have felt if I had been starting from scratch now, versus back in 2007, by buying a combo DAC/amp as an upgrade from straight out of my computer.

What is your thinking about using windows computers as sources?
 

 

[Divvy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikemalter /img/forum/go_quote.gif


From what I see, you are basically sourcing music from a windows computer through a sound card to a DAC to your headphone amp.
 
Either I'm using the V-DAC with USB, or the soundcards as DACs.
 
Also, you are making a comparison to Realtek in terms of other DAC's.  Isn't Realtek a soundcard driver?
 
Realtek audio chips are common in motherboards and are basically soundcards integrated onto the motherboard. As such, they can do D/A conversion.
 
Also, I am not sure what you mean by, "less exceptional harmonic distortion measurements."  Are you listening to the music, or measuring something else?
 
I'm just speculating if the difference I'm possibly hearing in music is related to the not-so-good harmonic distortion measurement results for the V-DAC from Stereophile. In other words, if the difference that I'm supposedly hearing on the V-DAC is the result of the device being of lower engineering quality than the Xonar STX soundcard. If there even is an audible difference. I might just be imagining it, and if there is, it's a tiny one.
 
My question to you is why do you care about the differences, imagined or real, between equipment?  It is not clear to me what you are trying to accomplish.
 
I'm basically trying to justify to myself spending money on better DACs and amps. I'd hate to spend 1000$ on something that is in effect similar or the exact same as a 200$ piece of hardware. I want more expensive sources, amps and cables to provide better sound, but I have yet to hear this happen. All that seems to make a difference is headphone/speaker choice. And in the case of the latter, room acoustics of course.
 
A Musical Fidelity V-DAC with a pair of Sennheiser HD650's are a really good combination.  You should have a really nice setup.
 
Thank you. I'd assume so as well. I don't really have reason to complain, I'm quite happy with how it sounds. But a 180€ soundcard with a simple IC-stage headphone output is basically matching the V-DAC and Canamp, a combo costing ~700€ here. The differences are marginal if they even exist, and it's impossible for me to claim one or the other as the better one. For reference, the differences between actual headphones are clear as day. Source and amp choice seem to me largely irrelevant to audio quality after a very entry-level point, and it is this belief that I'm hoping to find proof against, but haven't yet.
 
If you wanted to get the most out of it, I would focus on your media server on your PC and what works best with your operating system and sound card.
 
Thanks for the suggestion, but I already have all that sorted out. I've also tried playing music from a Harman Kardon cd-player costing alone more than my whole headphone rig, but to me, it's indistinguishable from my PC.
 
What is the resolution of your music?  Some media servers will allow you to increase sampling frequency and bit length to present something that your DAC can handle.  What is the highest frequency and bit length can your DAC handle, and are you sending that?
 
All my music is 44khz 16-bit, either in high bit-rate MP3 or uncompressed FLAC. I can't tell a difference between 16-bit and 24-bit or different sample rates above 44khz when playing these files.
 
I would also look into something like the Monarchy DIP that will reclock your signal which will really clean it up. I would think you are using coax to come out of your sound card and something like the DIP can help.
 
I don't really believe in jitter causing audible differences, as it's never been proven. There's actually more proof showing it false than true. But thanks for the suggestion anyway. I'm sure I'll try a reclocking USB DAC at some point, though I don't expect it to make an audible difference.

 

 

[mikemalter]

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikemalter /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
My question to you is why do you care about the differences, imagined or real, between equipment?  It is not clear to me what you are trying to accomplish.
 
I'm basically trying to justify to myself spending money on better DACs and amps. I'd hate to spend 1000$ on something that is in effect similar or the exact same as a 200$ piece of hardware. I want more expensive sources, amps and cables to provide better sound, but I have yet to hear this happen. All that seems to make a difference is headphone/speaker choice. And in the case of the latter, room acoustics of course.
 
A Musical Fidelity V-DAC with a pair of Sennheiser HD650's are a really good combination.  You should have a really nice setup.
 
Thank you. I'd assume so as well. I don't really have reason to complain, I'm quite happy with how it sounds. But a 180€ soundcard with a simple IC-stage headphone output is basically matching the V-DAC and Canamp, a combo costing ~700€ here. The differences are marginal if they even exist, and it's impossible for me to claim one or the other as the better one. For reference, the differences between actual headphones are clear as day. Source and amp choice seem to me largely irrelevant to audio quality after a very entry-level point, and it is this belief that I'm hoping to find proof against, but haven't yet.
  
I would also look into something like the Monarchy DIP that will reclock your signal which will really clean it up. I would think you are using coax to come out of your sound card and something like the DIP can help.
 
I don't really believe in jitter causing audible differences, as it's never been proven. There's actually more proof showing it false than true. But thanks for the suggestion anyway. I'm sure I'll try a reclocking USB DAC at some point, though I don't expect it to make an audible difference.

 

Very good and well thought out answers.  FWIW, here are some thoughts on a few points that may be helpful to you.
 
On the first two answers.  This is the deal with equipment, pricing and audio enjoyment.  I personally have found no correlation between price and quality.  It has never been a yardstick or mark of quality for me.  If you look at vendors like Vandersteen and PS Audio (for example, I am sure there are others), you'd be paying double from other vendors just to get even.  So, yeah, it is not a surprise that a simple 180 euro combination would sound just as good as something 700 euros.  This is a little hazy, and breaks down somewhat, but it seems to me that equipment fall into low-fi, mid-fi and hi-fi.  And when you are swimming around in low to mid-fi it can be quite astonishing how much equipment sounds alike with great price spreads.  One more point on this, your system will only sound as good as the weakest link.  Everything works with everything else, so putting in a 1k euro DAC might do nothing based on everything else you have.
 
On the deal with the DIP and jitter.  How can I say this... for every study that says jitter kills audio quality, there will be one that says it doesn't.  My personal thinking here is to find people that are credible and are willing to share their experiences and move in that world.  In this internet world there are so many caffine and other drug fueled posts thrown out by people just venting more than anything.  Let go of this proven / not proven stuff and find credible people who are willing to share their actual experiences with you and build on that to your tastes.  Let's take the DIP as an example.  Look up on the internet the sum total of DIP reviews and Monarchy in general.  I can tell you from my own personal experience that without the DIP computer audio feels like someone is cleaning out my ears with steel wool, and with it, the difference between computer and other sources is so slight that it is an exersize in hair-splitting.
 
Anyway, hope you get what you are looking for and that I have been a little helpful to you.
 

 

[maverickronin]

Quote:

 
On the first two answers.  This is the deal with equipment, pricing and audio enjoyment.  I personally have found no correlation between price and quality.  It has never been a yardstick or mark of quality for me.  If you look at vendors like Vandersteen and PS Audio (for example, I am sure there are others), you'd be paying double from other vendors just to get even.  So, yeah, it is not a surprise that a simple 180 euro combination would sound just as good as something 700 euros.  This is a little hazy, and breaks down somewhat, but it seems to me that equipment fall into low-fi, mid-fi and hi-fi.  And when you are swimming around in low to mid-fi it can be quite astonishing how much equipment sounds alike with great price spreads.  One more point on this, your system will only sound as good as the weakest link.  Everything works with everything else, so putting in a 1k euro DAC might do nothing based on everything else you have.
 
On the deal with the DIP and jitter.  How can I say this... for every study that says jitter kills audio quality, there will be one that says it doesn't.  My personal thinking here is to find people that are credible and are willing to share their experiences and move in that world.  In this internet world there are so many caffine and other drug fueled posts thrown out by people just venting more than anything.  Let go of this proven / not proven stuff and find credible people who are willing to share their actual experiences with you and build on that to your tastes.  Let's take the DIP as an example.  Look up on the internet the sum total of DIP reviews and Monarchy in general.  I can tell you from my own personal experience that without the DIP computer audio feels like someone is cleaning out my ears with steel wool, and with it, the difference between computer and other sources is so slight that it is an exersize in hair-splitting.
 
Anyway, hope you get what you are looking for and that I have been a little helpful to you.
 

Why would would anyone want to do that?  Do you care about what is actually true?  Shouldn't you investigate things a little before you actually spend money on something?  The questions go on and on.
 
What other context would you ever say that in, and why would it be ok in this one?

 

[Dibster]

I suppose we are the type to demand empirical study on things instead of relying on faith. There are some things in the audio world that continuously amaze me. For example, whenever someone switches the cable on their headphones for a better one, the change is always for the better. Or when someone switches amps or DACs for more expensive ones, again the supposed difference in sound is always an improvement. Has there ever been anyone who thought their new 200$ cable sounded worse than the original? Has there ever been anyone who could reliably point out the cables in a blind test?
 
Placebo is the worst detractor from value of advice on the internet. For audio and other things as well. It's most lamentable for people to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on things based on placebo-affected advice, only to listen back-to-back for hours just to force themselves to hear some difference that might or might not be there and succumb to the same effect to justify their spending.

 

[mikemalter]

Quote:

Quote:

 
On the first two answers.  This is the deal with equipment, pricing and audio enjoyment.  I personally have found no correlation between price and quality.  It has never been a yardstick or mark of quality for me.  If you look at vendors like Vandersteen and PS Audio (for example, I am sure there are others), you'd be paying double from other vendors just to get even.  So, yeah, it is not a surprise that a simple 180 euro combination would sound just as good as something 700 euros.  This is a little hazy, and breaks down somewhat, but it seems to me that equipment fall into low-fi, mid-fi and hi-fi.  And when you are swimming around in low to mid-fi it can be quite astonishing how much equipment sounds alike with great price spreads.  One more point on this, your system will only sound as good as the weakest link.  Everything works with everything else, so putting in a 1k euro DAC might do nothing based on everything else you have.
 
On the deal with the DIP and jitter.  How can I say this... for every study that says jitter kills audio quality, there will be one that says it doesn't.  My personal thinking here is to find people that are credible and are willing to share their experiences and move in that world.  In this internet world there are so many caffine and other drug fueled posts thrown out by people just venting more than anything.  Let go of this proven / not proven stuff and find credible people who are willing to share their actual experiences with you and build on that to your tastes.  Let's take the DIP as an example.  Look up on the internet the sum total of DIP reviews and Monarchy in general.  I can tell you from my own personal experience that without the DIP computer audio feels like someone is cleaning out my ears with steel wool, and with it, the difference between computer and other sources is so slight that it is an exersize in hair-splitting.
 
Anyway, hope you get what you are looking for and that I have been a little helpful to you.
 

Why would would anyone want to do that?  Do you care about what is actually true?  Shouldn't you investigate things a little before you actually spend money on something?  The questions go on and on.
 
What other context would you ever say that in, and why would it be ok in this one?

Here is something to think about that gets at the root of what I was trying to say in my prior post. 
 
In this month's column in Stereophile, Art Dudley wrote about the findings of Harry Nyquist which became the Nyquist Theorum.  In his article, Dudley further wrote that this theorem suggested that for an energy continuum spanning a given range of frequencies, a sampling rate of just over twice the highest frequency present with a complex waveform is all that's required in order to digitally store and reporduce it - perfectly.  So, if the audioband is defined as 20Hz-20kHz, the Nyquist Theorem suggests that the sample rate only need be slightly more than 40kHz.  The CD's rate of 44.1kHz was choosen in the belief that the extra 4kHz was more than enough safety margin.
 
Dudley further writes in his column that during the CD's first few years on Earth, the common response by the mainstream press and to those who suggested the need for sampling rates higher than 44.1kHz was to deride them as idiots.
 
Basically what was happening was that people were hearing CD's and saying they were experiencing something different than what experts were saying, and that higher sampling rates produced better sound and they were ridiculed for it.
 
So what I am trying to get across is that the description of a theory is not the music; much the same way in the military it is said the map is not the battlefield or in a restaurant the menu is not the meal.  What I am trying to say is:
 

• trust ourselves about what sounds good.
• there is no correlation between price and quality

 
So, yes we should investigate things a little before spending our hard-earned money; yes.  Yes, I do care about what is actually true, and my enjoyment is the acid test of true, not someone else's description or theory.
 
I'm thinking we are not so far apart in this, probably I am saying it poorly and not expressing it very well.

 

[Dibster]

 
I can accept point nr. 2. There's even science to back up the claim. Measurements propose to serve as an objective means to discern which piece of audio equipment is of high quality, and which isn't. And they certainly do not correlate with price.

 

However, the first point is a difficult one. I believe the basis of Hi-Fi is the effort to reproduce what's on the CD as faithfully as possible. If something, such as an amp or a DAC, audibly deviates from that, then it might very well sound better to many of us. This might still be acceptable, but it poses the problem where another song might sound worse. You might have more treble detail in a song due to a DAC emphasizing it, but this turns into added sibilance on another song. If a song is sibilant, I want it to sound like that from my audio equipment. I can't tell by ear what the "correct" sound is. I believe nobody can. But I can at least count on science and measurements to point me into a direction. My ears just leave me walking in circles, so to speak.

 

[maverickronin]

Quote:

Has there ever been anyone who thought their new 200$ cable sounded worse than the original?

 
I've seen one person who said a fancy cable for his PC made his Asus soundcard sound worse.  I think the the point does still hold in general though.
 
Quote:

So what I am trying to get across is that the description of a theory is not the music; much the same way in the military it is said the map is not the battlefield or in a restaurant the menu is not the meal.  What I am trying to say is:
 

• trust ourselves about what sounds good.
• there is no correlation between price and quality

 
So, yes we should investigate things a little before spending our hard-earned money; yes.  Yes, I do care about what is actually true, and my enjoyment is the acid test of true, not someone else's description or theory.
 
I'm thinking we are not so far apart in this, probably I am saying it poorly and not expressing it very well.

 
I'm not trying to tell someone that they shouldn't enjoy the sound they enjoy.  The problem lies in figuring out what you'll enjoy and why you enjoy it, and that's why I can't completely agree with #1.
 
Some differences are quite easy to figure out.  The difference between most headphones is plain as day.  Amps are often differentiable as well.  Most DACs that aren't intentionally broken are pretty hard to distinguish.  Even people who really know what to listen for can't identify a when a good ADC and DAC stage superfluously added into the signal chain though.
 
I'm saying people should be suspicious of things which are purported to provide small incremental changes or contradict established theory.  We can't always trust out senses because our senses are not 100% reliable.  We have to test and confirm them.  You could fooling yourself.  You could be a victim of psychology, brain chemistry, and of our imperfectly evolved cognitive machinery.  Or established theory may be wrong instead.  We won't know until we test it.

 

[mikemalter]

I'm not trying to tell someone that they shouldn't enjoy the sound they enjoy.  The problem lies in figuring out what you'll enjoy and why you enjoy it, and that's why I can't completely agree with #1.
 
Some differences are quite easy to figure out.  The difference between most headphones is plain as day.  Amps are often differentiable as well.  Most DACs that aren't intentionally broken are pretty hard to distinguish.  Even people who really know what to listen for can't identify a when a good ADC and DAC stage superfluously added into the signal chain though.
 
I'm saying people should be suspicious of things which are purported to provide small incremental changes or contradict established theory.  We can't always trust out senses because our senses are not 100% reliable.  We have to test and confirm them.  You could fooling yourself.  You could be a victim of psychology, brain chemistry, and of our imperfectly evolved cognitive machinery.  Or established theory may be wrong instead.  We won't know until we test it.
 
I totally get your perspective, and I truly hope it makes you happy.
 
What matters to me is results. I don't care if I am fooling myself, or if I am a victim of psychology, brain chemistry or cognitosis.  I don't care.
 
My goal is to enjoy myself, be happy and comfortable in my own skin.  I buy what I like and leave the rest.  I'm totally happy with my system, and willing to listen to the experiences of others and try it to see if I like it.  If I don't care for something I let it go.  If I like it, I buy it.  Why would I want to dilute my happiness with worry about whether I really should be happy?
 
Have a nice day.

 

[maverickronin]

Quote:

I totally get your perspective, and I truly hope it makes you happy.
 
What matters to me is results. I don't care if I am fooling myself, or if I am a victim of psychology, brain chemistry or cognitosis.  I don't care.
 
My goal is to enjoy myself, be happy and comfortable in my own skin.  I buy what I like and leave the rest.  I'm totally happy with my system, and willing to listen to the experiences of others and try it to see if I like it.  If I don't care for something I let it go.  If I like it, I buy it.  Why would I want to dilute my happiness with worry about whether I really should be happy?
 
Have a nice day.

If that is truly your position then there is probably little I can do to persuade you otherwise with reasoned arguments.  Despite that, here's A.C. Grayling defending and describing my position better then I can at the moment.
 
And that's about as far as can go without this wandering way, way OT...

 

[mikemalter]

Quote:

Quote:

I totally get your perspective, and I truly hope it makes you happy.
 
What matters to me is results. I don't care if I am fooling myself, or if I am a victim of psychology, brain chemistry or cognitosis.  I don't care.
 
My goal is to enjoy myself, be happy and comfortable in my own skin.  I buy what I like and leave the rest.  I'm totally happy with my system, and willing to listen to the experiences of others and try it to see if I like it.  If I don't care for something I let it go.  If I like it, I buy it.  Why would I want to dilute my happiness with worry about whether I really should be happy?
 
Have a nice day.

If that is truly your position then there is probably little I can do to persuade you otherwise with reasoned arguments.  Despite that, here's A.C. Grayling defending and describing my position better then I can at the moment.
 
And that's about as far as can go without this wandering way, way OT...

Persuade me to what? 
 
Yes, it is truly my goal to make myself happy and comfortable in my own skin.  And yes, It is truly my position to decide for myself what I like and what makes me happy and enjoy myself.  I'll listen to anyone and then I will decide what is best for me and what I like.  I don't see what the problem is.
 
As this relates to audio and my original point.  Each person is the arbitor of their own likes and dislikes.  Try it.  If you like it then buy it.  If you don't like it, then don't buy it.  Don't drive your self crazy by over-analyizing what you have, and then nit-picking yourself into distraction by worrying if it is good or not.  It is not that complicated.  That was my point.
 
I liked what A. C. Grayling had to say by the way, nice suggestion, thanks.