[oqvist]

As mentioned much earlier I have no problem hearing differences with any of my dacs/soundcards.
But of course some may encounter two that are very similar.
If my only experience with amps would been the Goldpoint Headphone Pro and Trafomatic Head one I may also be in the group that say amps doesn´t matter they all sound the same.
 

 

[dura]

I always wonder what would happen if people like Dalamar start to meddle with red wine.
 
"Hmm, nice bouquet".
-"What do you mean nice bouquet, what is a bouquet, define bouquet! this is a completely useless empty statement."
"Well , I just meant it smelled nice".
-"Who care if you think it smells nice! This is subjective!!
You are probably imagining things.
Have you tested objectively if it smells nice?"
"well no, but why should I, I mean"
-"No, I thought so, too lazy, too imcompetent, not an engineer like me with a real degree, you are just trying to convince yourself it smells nice, because you bought this far too expensive bottle".
"It wasn't that expensive and I really like the taste of it, goes well with cheese too".
-"Ah, another fallacy, is there no end to your ignorance and stupidity? You use that cheese to mask the hideous taste of that rotten wine.
My god, no testing, not any attempt to make this objective, just saying he likes the wine because it tastes nice! Where are your measurements man?!".

 

[RonaldDumsfeld]

^^ Well put and most amusing. Thx.

 

[volume]

Quote:

I always wonder what would happen if people like Dalamar start to meddle with red wine.
 
"Hmm, nice bouquet".
-"What do you mean nice bouquet, what is a bouquet, define bouquet! this is a completely useless empty statement."
"Well , I just meant it smelled nice".
-"Who care if you think it smells nice! This is subjective!!
You are probably imagining things.
Have you tested objectively if it smells nice?"
"well no, but why should I, I mean"
-"No, I thought so, to lazy, to imcompetent, not an engineer like me with a real degree, you are just trying to convince yourself it smells nice, because you bought this far too expensive bottle".
"It wasn't that expensive and I really like the taste of it, goes well with cheese too".
-"Ah, another fallacy, is there no end to your ignorance and stupidity? You use that cheese to mask the hideous taste of that rotten wine.
My god, no testing, not any attempt to make this objective, just saying he likes the wine because it tastes nice! Where are your measurements man?!".

That was one awesome post, I feel you should right a book.

 

 

[ROBSCIX]

Funny. Gotta write that down.
 
You should read some of his posting in the other forums.
According to him:
You can use onboard soundchip with ANY cheap cable, connected to any cheap amplifiers and have the best sound humanly possible! 
Also, ALL headphones do not require an amplifier at all...
When I ask him what experience he has in the hobby as he seems to have little to none, he said that stereophile RMAA'd his card so he can sit and compare RMAA measurements.
I guess he thinks he can look at gear and know how it sounds.
 
How is it that a person can get so misguided in something so simple?

 

[maverickronin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROBSCIX /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
You should read some of his posting in the other forums.
According to him:
You can use onboard soundchip with ANY cheap cable, connected to any cheap amplifiers and have the best sound humanly possible! 
Also, ALL headphones do not require an amplifier at all...

He has a point, but really he's taking it a bit to far there.  Plus he's just being obnoxious.  I believe in policing your own, partially agree with his position, and would like to state it in a more civil manner.  Even if he needs to be denounced, there are some nuggets of truth that need to be dug out and properly presented.
 
In reality you can take any decent soundcard, any decent cable, any decent amp, and get 90-plus percent of the SQ of a money-is-no-object system, transducers and source held constant.  It is easily possible to make DACs (Yey! finally back on topic!) fully transparent.  Once a component is transparent, you essentially can't tell that it's there.  It doesn't change the sound in any audible way.  This also means, by definition, that one transparent DAC is sonicly indistinguishable from the next.
 
If you're after euphonics and not transparency, then that's ok too.  One of those Audio GD DACs might be for you.  I know I'm not always after transparency.  I wouldn't own any tubes if I was, but my personal opinion is that adding more color to the DAC circuit itself is largely counterproductive.  Between combinations of headphones and amps, and opamps and tubes within the amps, along with various DSPs, software or hardware, I think there are plenty of other more controllable ways to add whatever color you want to your sound.
 
I'm not trying to tell people that they shouldn't buy intentionally colored DAC though.  I'm not trying to force anyone to do it my way.  I'm just saying that its quite possible to get a completely or very nearly completely transparent DAC for not a lot of money if that's what you're after.  In addition, it shouldn't be surprising that DACs which are transparent, or close to it, aren't easily distinguishable.  If you're after transparency, an X-Fi, Xonar, HT Omega, or a semi-pro DAC of some kind is just about as good as it gets.  If you're after something else, then well, the sky is not even the limit.  I don't know if there is a limit at all.
 
Also, that video in his sig is actually quite good.

 

[jcx]

properly understood the wine analogy makes the "just listen" crowd look bad - wine tasting and certification as a sommelier is done with perceptual controlled taste testing and blinding protocols
 
so the hostility to scientific controls in audio perceptual testing is not justified by referral to wine
 
" 
Candidates who successfully complete the Introductory Sommelier Exam with a minimum 60% passing score on the written examination:

1. Have received intensive instruction over two days from a team of Master Sommeliers.
2. Have received an overview of all the major wine growing regions of the world, as well as instruction in spirits, beer, saké and proper wine service.
3. Have passed a written examination based on the material covered throughout the 2-day course.
4. Are capable of discussing, buying and serving a comprehensive range of alcoholic beverages with confidence and skill.
5. Have learned the Deductive Tasting method of blind tasting from some of the best wine tasters in the world--a tasting method that is an integral part of the Certified Sommelier Exam, the Advanced Course and the Master Sommelier Diploma. The acquired tasting skills will enable them to confidently recognize both wine quality and flaws.
6.  Have received adequate direction to successfully study and prepare for the Certified Sommelier Exam, the prerequisite for the Advanced Course and Master Sommelier Exam itself.

 " {emphasis added}

 

[gsilver]

Well, I decided at the beginning this week to go ahead and put to rest the DAC question in my own mind. I have a fair chunk of change saved up, so I went ahead and ordered a Sony XA5400ES, a supposed "giant killer". I'll be comparing it to my current setup using my HD-650s and my Sony MDR-SA5000s.
 
Now, while the player is more than I probably feel comfortable spending on one, it's held its resale value. Since I'm living out in the middle of nowhere, there are not any Hi-Fi stores anywhere near here, so I can't exactly try it or other high-end players/DACs in stores. I figure that it's worth it (to me) to see what kind of difference a high-end player makes over my DacMagic and NS975v.
 
If the difference is small, I can sell it for close to what I paid for it. If the difference is large, then music will be all that more exciting. Not too bad, IMO.

 

[aimlink]

I don't see a price for that Sony SACD player.  How much did it set you back?

 

[onef]

I had the slight misfortune of reading this thread in its entirety, and recalled something quoted from the Great Raja Russell's website:
 
[size=16pt]"The more components sound alike, the more inventive people become about describing the differences they think they hear."[/size]

 

[oqvist]

Quote:

I had the slight misfortune of reading this thread in its entirety, and recalled something quoted from the Great Raja Russell's website:
 
[size=16pt]"The more components sound alike, the more inventive people become about describing the differences they think they hear."[/size]

You surely have to be more inventive yes. But anyway in most review you do focus on differences. If the reviewer forget to mention they sound very much alike it may not be as helpful of course.
 
I am having that problem currently with two fresh amps.I find it a bit humorous that the two amps I found that sounded the same is one tube and one solid state! All my previous solid state amps have had their clear signatures.

 

[haloxt]

jcx, the fact that wine tasting has such standards also says something about the people who criticize audiophiles and their claims. It's not just audiophile's responsibility to try to raise the scientific standard of subjective audio testing, which obviously is inferior to many fields, but who is really to blame when a field is allowed to be steeped in ignorance? I think the people who constantly whine for audiophiles to be more scientific have at least a little responsibility to practice what they preach.
 
Dalamar, you say audio-gd dac's are the most colored and least neutral dac's, but coloration is a psychological phenomena, and to make your claim a certainty the coloration must be measured by scientific listening tests, which I don't think has been done yet. Audio-gd dac's do measure a little funny on RMAA so you could say measurement-wise they are not neutral. But there are other dac's that measure a lot weirder on RMAA, so it is not correct to say audio-gd dac's are the least neutral dac's in the world. Although I agree with some parts of your criticisms, much of it is poorly written and shows a disregard for scientific objectivity. Instead of being so critical and insulting, you could try to help make this hobby more scientific yourself, if that's what you really want.

 

[kite7]

This great thread reminds me of this recent amp comparison thread. I like these comparison threads because it goes against the belief that more expensive is better.
 
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/521988/amp-a-b-comparisons

 

[Divvy]

I can hardly tell any differences between amps and dacs. I'm close to believing Hi-Fi is a big lie, religion, snake oil. IME what matters is you have any decent DAC that measures well, any amp that gets you enough volume with good measurements and the best speakers or headphones you like that you can afford. Only the last truly matters as far as audio quality goes.
 
I'm still open to being proven wrong, but so far it's not been happening.

 

[mikemalter]

Quote:

I can hardly tell any differences between amps and dacs. I'm close to believing Hi-Fi is a big lie, religion, snake oil. IME what matters is you have any decent DAC that measures well, any amp that gets you enough volume with good measurements and the best speakers or headphones you like that you can afford. Only the last truly matters as far as audio quality goes.
 
I'm still open to being proven wrong, but so far it's not been happening.

What kind of equipment have you been listening to?