[Beauregard]

Quote:

Originally Posted by applebook Some op-amps and other knick-knacks were changed on the DAC1 earlier this year, and Empirical Audio claims that the mods offer a "significant" improvement in SQ, but I'm not so sure because some use those terms much more loosely than I would: http://www5.head-fi.org/forums/showt...highlight=dac1

I'm not at all sure if those "op-amps and knick-knacks" were ever changed much less changed in the last year, or if they're consequential to the DAC1's performance if they indeed were changed. Another Audio Asylum thread I contributed to a while back:

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=digital&m=112923

Follow the branch beginning with audioengr's reply to the OP and draw your own conclusions about his credibility. Uncle Beau's thoughts are in the thread; he got a little ticked at Empirical's approach to empiricism and sharing information on the web.

FWIW, if you read the Head-Fi thread and the AA threads I linked to, you'll discover that audioengr only recently discovered the difference between a stepped attenuator and a potentiometer. And he can't seem to tell when opamps are in a signal path. My favorite touch was when Benchmark's chief engineer corrected the record on the latter point and audioengr condescended to say that Mr. Siau was "technically correct" - about the product he had designed! Sheesh...

Also... it seems I've done my bit at spreading unverified information about the DAC1. When I posted in the AA thread about Benchmark's $50 upgrade I hadn't rechecked Siau's Head-Fi post and didn't realize that it applied to an earlier product revision. I'll contact Benchmark this week to get info about current upgrade availability and pricing and post my findings here and on AA.

Best,
Beau

 

[Beauregard]

Forgot to say in the previous post: I regard comparisons using the DAC1's balanced outputs to be legitimate no matter when the unit was produced. And it would be helpful if folks using the single-ended ouputs would specify whether they have the 1k+ or 30 ohm version and if they think there might be an effect on their downstream equipment.

Beau

 

[elmoe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iron_Dreamer Hmm, well I've heard the E5, and it's neither as detailed nor as refined as the DAC1 you already have. Rega players I've heard before were a bit smoothede over and lacking in detail as a result. Either the Aqvox or Lavry represent a worthwhile upgrade from the DAC1 in my mind now, just depends on whether you're looking for more expansive soundstage (Lavry) or more midrange dynamics/musicality (Aqvox). Both offer a more subtle and nuanced sound than the DAC1. I don't want to give away too much of my review before I post it

The thing is, I'm actually looking for a decent CDP which can act as transport, and it seems to me the E5 can do the trick nicely. I want a source slightly less analytical, although I could care less about soundstage. I find the highs on the DAC-1 to be a bit organic, not very natural sounding although very detailled, fast and precise. A better bass response would be nice as well. Seems like the E5 can bring such positive changes in my rig.

Right now, rather than buying the best stand alone source, I'd rather buy the best synergic source with my rig, as I dont think I'll upgrade anything much anymore.

 

[Iron_Dreamer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jashugan The thing is, I'm actually looking for a decent CDP which can act as transport, and it seems to me the E5 can do the trick nicely. I want a source slightly less analytical, although I could care less about soundstage. I find the highs on the DAC-1 to be a bit organic, not very natural sounding although very detailled, fast and precise. A better bass response would be nice as well. Seems like the E5 can bring such positive changes in my rig.

The E5's looks, build quality, and reasonable cost make it a very good candidate as a cd transport. In that regard I'd certainly take it over any Rega player I've ever used. The DAC1's highs are fast, but are not that refined/controlled, as some grain obscures finer positioning-crucial detail, and the E5's analog output only fares worse in that regard, though I would say that it has a tone which leans slighly more musical. In essence, between the two you trade resolution for tone/musicality.

 

[akwok]

When you're talking about refined and controlled highs, the SA5000 doesn't seem like a good candidate to examine these qualities.

 

[elmoe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by akwok When you're talking about refined and controlled highs, the SA5000 doesn't seem like a good candidate to examine these qualities.

Sorry to say so but thats a pretty dumb remark considering that IMHO the SA5k is probably the most revealing can for highs that I know of...

 

[mshan]

"The DAC1's highs are fast, but are not that refined/controlled, as some grain obscures finer positioning-crucial detail"

Would you attribute this to some fine solid state grit, rather than some distortion of the digital to audio conversion in the DAC-1?

 

[akwok]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jashugan Sorry to say so but thats a pretty dumb remark considering that IMHO the SA5k is probably the most revealing can for highs that I know of...

Oops. I meant to emphasize controlled, not refined.. my bad.

 

[applebook]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jashugan The thing is, I'm actually looking for a decent CDP which can act as transport, and it seems to me the E5 can do the trick nicely. I want a source slightly less analytical, although I could care less about soundstage. I find the highs on the DAC-1 to be a bit organic, not very natural sounding although very detailled, fast and precise. A better bass response would be nice as well. Seems like the E5 can bring such positive changes in my rig. Right now, rather than buying the best stand alone source, I'd rather buy the best synergic source with my rig, as I dont think I'll upgrade anything much anymore.

The E5 can be modified down the road to surpass pretty much any stock DAC less than $1000 (depending on taste, of course).

 

[Iron_Dreamer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by akwok When you're talking about refined and controlled highs, the SA5000 doesn't seem like a good candidate to examine these qualities.

Actually it is a very good candidate, moreso than popular headphones that roll off so much of the high end that one might not hear the differences I have unless they're using a $12,000 headphone amp, of course

Anyway, if you've not heard the SA5000 sound good, it either doesn't fit your head right, or you heard it from poorly matched gear. I am sick and tired of having to defend these headphones to those that don't "get" them. I've owned them for almost a year now, heard many other high-end cans along the way, and never been tempted to change (unless someone wants to give me enough to go buy a Qualia). The bottom line is that they are very high performance headphones that some of us like, some don't, but in all odds the differences we hear in associated gear while using them would apply to any other similarly high-performance headphones.

At any rate, I can hear the differences I've discussed with the DAC's even on my "lowly" DT531's, although perhaps not always quite as clearly, the differences are still there, still perciptible, and still effect the listening experience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jashugan Sorry to say so but thats a pretty dumb remark considering that IMHO the SA5k is probably the most revealing can for highs that I know of...

Pretty much. I'd say that the R10, K1000, and Qualia are up there as well. Stax can be pretty brutally revealing with a good amp, as can the HE60 (and I'd imagine the HE90 as well).

Quote:

Originally Posted by applebook The E5 can be modified down the road to surpass pretty much any stock DAC less than $1000 (depending on taste, of course).

You've heard an E5 in this condition, and compared it to most all stock DAC's under $1000? Didn't think so. I wouldn't be surprised if mods could make the E5 sound much better than it does stock, but don't go around making such obviously ignorant and presumptive statments. If you are basing your opinion of most $1000> DAC's on the DAC1, well don't, it is not the top of its' class.

 

[applebook]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iron_Dreamer You've heard an E5 in this condition, and compared it to most all stock DAC's under $1000? Didn't think so. I wouldn't be surprised if mods could make the E5 sound much better than it does stock, but don't go around making such obviously ignorant and presumptive statments. If you are basing your opinion of most $1000> DAC's on the DAC1, well don't, it is not the top of its' class.

Actually, the DAC1 is in the top of its class. Just because you and five other people on this forum don't think so doesn't make you correct.

As for the E5, I don't know if a fully upgraded version would sound better than all sub $1500 DACs, but I'd be willing to bet that it would. Have you hear a fully modded one to make your statement?

 

[applebook]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iron_Dreamer Anyway, if you've not heard the SA5000 sound good, it either doesn't fit your head right, or you heard it from poorly matched gear. I am sick and tired of having to defend these headphones to those that don't "get" them. I've owned them for almost a year now, heard many other high-end cans along the way, and never been tempted to change (unless someone wants to give me enough to go buy a Qualia). The bottom line is that they are very high performance headphones that some of us like, some don't, but in all odds the differences we hear in associated gear while using them would apply to any other similarly high-performance headphones.

Are you serious? If someone doesn't like the SA5000, it MUST be because he/ she is improperly using it? LOL. Tyll thinks that the SA5000 is too bright. Does he not have the right gear?

No one is forcing or even asking you defend anything. You're the one being defensive about something that's really a matter of taste. Just because someone doesn't like YOUR gear, it doesn't make YOUR experiences invalid.

BTW, why were you selling your DAC1 BEFORE you even heard the Aqvox and the Lavry? I'd be interested to know.

 

[Iron_Dreamer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by applebook Are you serious? If someone doesn't like the SA5000, it MUST be because he/ she is improperly using it? LOL. Tyll thinks that the SA5000 is too bright. Does he not have the right gear?

I didn't say anything about not using them right, I said they probably don't fit right. That has nothing to do with the skill or diligence of the user, through my observation of folks at meets, it is simply clear they do not fit some people properly. If I wear them in a way that simulates that problem, I hear the same sort of issues some people have complained about with them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by applebook No one is forcing or even asking you defend anything. You're the one being defensive about something that's really a matter of taste. Just because someone doesn't like YOUR gear, it doesn't make YOUR experiences invalid.

But that is how people feel. He essentially asked, "what right does he have to comment about a DAC's treble with THOSE headphones?" In that case, I have a duty to defend what I hear from the headphones in question, lest all my thoughts be thrown under the bus, since if I let that happen, what is the point in commenting on the sound of any gear? I had to defend the SA5000, in order to defend the validity of my conclusions. Of course any idiot has the right to draw conclusions, but I would prefer to draw meaningful conclusions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by applebook BTW, why were you selling your DAC1 BEFORE you even heard the Aqvox and the Lavry? I'd be interested to know.

I didn't know I had posted an ad for it, must have done that while I was sleepwalking...

Well, unlike some folks, I'm not made of money, so I contacted a few folks looking for a DAC1 to let them know that mine might be avaliable in the near future, if I preferred one of the new DAC's I had on the way. Of course you are going to use my honesty about a personal financial matter to try and make it seem as if I am biased against a component I have been lauding for well over a year...

In the course of my testing of these DAC's I've done some family-assisted blind testing, and still found the DAC1 deficient compared to the other two. Of course I am not shocked that a mass-market device stuffed with cheap opamps is bested by niche-market products with sophisticated discrete designs. I for one, think many, myself included, got caught up in the hype cycle for the DAC1 building up to be more than it ever could be. Of course if one just listened to it on it's own, without every seriously comparing it to a high-end competitor, one could go on forever thinking it is as good as it's been made out to be, since it is very good in its' own right. But it is not without peers.

 

[Iron_Dreamer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by applebook Actually, the DAC1 is in the top of its class. Just because you and five other people on this forum don't think so doesn't make you correct.

You, my friend, are a victim of unrelenting and undeniable hype that has circulated for some time since the launch of a great PR campaign on Benchmark's part. The "five other people on this forum" and I have actually battle-tested the DAC1 under many circumstances, and have found even lower-priced options that best it. And I doubt we are alone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by applebook As for the E5, I don't know if a fully upgraded version would sound better than all sub $1500 DACs, but I'd be willing to bet that it would. Have you hear a fully modded one to make your statement?

Why would I need to have heard one? I was not the one running around saying it sounds better with absolutely no experience to back it up, I merely called you on it. I made no claims as to how it sounds, in fact I even reasoned it might sound quite good indeed. I don't object to speculation, I object to statements of supposed fact with no evidence. If you had said "I think a fully-modded E5 might sound better than any $1000 DAC," I wouldn't have raised an eye, since you would not have been sending out the idea that you knew something which in fact you didn't.

 

[applebook]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iron_Dreamer I didn't say anything about not using them right, I said they probably don't fit right. That has nothing to do with the skill or diligence of the user, through my observation of folks at meets, it is simply clear they do not fit some people properly. If I wear them in a way that simulates that problem, I hear the same sort of issues some people have complained about with them.

Not correctly using the headphones is not wearing them right. You also blatantly criticized the gear of those who disagree with your opinion, and if you actually know anything about these folks, you'd realize that they have had or still possess better equipment that few can only dream of.

Quote:

But that is how people feel. He essentially asked, "what right does he have to comment about a DAC's treble with THOSE headphones?" In that case, I have a duty to defend what I hear from the headphones in question, lest all my thoughts be thrown under the bus, since if I let that happen, what is the point in commenting on the sound of any gear? I had to defend the SA5000, in order to defend the validity of my conclusions. Of course any idiot has the right to draw conclusions, but I would prefer to draw meaningful conclusions.

He just doesn't necessarily listen to music the same way that you do and never discredited your impressions, nor do I, even if I do feel that the SA5000 is way too bright for my tastes. If people don't agree with your impressions because of your headphones, then they have every right to do so because their experiences with those cans are negative, and they are not incorrect to have those opinions. Your response does nothing to bolster the SA5000's claim to accuracy with HF; it merely regurgitates your opinon, which, as I've pointed out is actually in the minority. Many here, including Tyll, consider the SA5000 to be bright, not accurate.

Quote:

I didn't know I had posted an ad for it, must have done that while I was sleepwalking...

This is your attempt at "possibly" selling your DAC1 prior to your DAC shoot-out: http://www5.head-fi.org/forums/showt...ight=benchmark

I'll e-mail the user and ask if you and he/ she agreed to a deal.

Quote:

Well, unlike some folks, I'm not made of money, so I contacted a few folks looking for a DAC1 to let them know that mine might be avaliable in the near future, if I preferred one of the new DAC's I had on the way. Of course you are going to use my honesty about a personal financial matter to try and make it seem as if I am biased against a component I have been lauding for well over a year...

If you in fact were going to sell a product before even evaluating it against its competitors, then, yes, all of your impressions are seriously compromised.