[togiff]

Yeah i totally think they had an array of mics recording that, then they mixed it down to stereo for headphones to demo the effect of SBX 3D surround.. When you listen you are getting the equivolent output of SBX as it outputs to your headphones after mixing it in hardware.

 

[arcwindz]

Yeah i totally think they had an array of mics recording that, then they mixed it down to stereo for headphones to demo the effect of SBX 3D surround.. When you listen you are getting the equivolent output of SBX as it outputs to your headphones after mixing it in hardware.

Just fyi, binaural recording is recorded using a dummy head with microphones in the ear area.this method is used on many recordings, including the creative demo video, which represent what sbx could possibly do but not how it really works. And no, sbx doesn't do it as well as binaural recording.
If you want to hear how sbx really sound, just go to madlustenvy thread and find some youtube video there.

 

[DigitalRonyn]

Hey there this is Ryan from the Sound Blaster team.

In regards to SBX Surround, I thought I could give a bit of our methodology.  We are indeed taking individual streams as delivered by the game engine (or software player) and then placing them "virtually" in their correct positions via HRTF functions (and some other functions as well).
 
We're able to determine what is a static or stationary source of audio by directly comparing all the streams in real-time and this allows us to make an analysis of what's ambiance, what's a moving audio cue etc by comparing the various channel information. The more channels the more realistic the effect.

Some of the competing "virtual surrounds" are really just applying a reverb to different streams and sources and "spatializing" the sound which gives a more open sound, but also doesn't really focus in on audio cues and putting them in an accurate place relative to your head. Our expertise in the area really stems from our PC gaming background where that accuracy is really coveted by that demographic (and criticized pretty hard if it's not accurate enough).
 
I've noted the comments on the demo content from those contributing to this thread (as well as other critical feedback from everyone here as well). 
 
I also promise I'll be stopping in a lot more often and contributing where I can.

 

[togiff]

Thanks for stepping up Rony. Um, got a Q, this is something I haven't tested yet, but I intend to.

Can you confirm, as someone said a page back, is this stereo device the SB E5, is it taking the 5.1 or 7.1 or the individual streams in game, and is it doing the full SBX 3D surround effect?

Reason I ask is the E5 is in fact only capable of outputting stereo, so I think this was a point where one user believed back a few pages, that it must then just be "virtual surround" as in when you turn on the SBX surround on the panel settings, because it might not enable the rendering of all surround channels/etc. I know there should be no problem the E5 taking in unlimited channels/etc and mixing them to stereo, but just want to confirm it's supported

As I see it SBX surround is a setting on the control panel like a reverb and spacial enhancement you talked about, but there is also a 3D SBX surround effect that does the channel mixing mentioned on Creative's side but I haven't been able to test it out or confirm it's supported yet. Where can we confirm or test the 3D SBX surround portion of this on the E5?

Up to this point I assume it supports it but have not verified besides it saying it supports SBX Studio on the Creative specs page..

 

[HotIce]

Other two question that popped up in this thread.
What are the output power ratings, which are nowhere to be found in the specs?
Any option for preventing the E5 from charging an attached device?

 

[arcwindz]

Regarding the sbx studio, can the e5 receive the multi channel audio from game when it is displayed as stereo in the windows?

 

[salve]

Hi all, I just bought an E5 yesterday and wanted to provide some much needed feedback as it seems that some advanced questions have yet to be answered. While I can't answer every question right now I did want to share what I have encountered. Keep in mind that these are opinions and are not backed up by any formal testing.
 
My Equipment:
 
Headphones:
-Audio Technica MTH-M50
 
Devices: 
-Sound Blaster E5
-Fiio E06
-Nexus 5 running a custom Lollipop Rom (5.0.2)
-Windows 8.1 PC using standard USB OR integrated Realtek
 
Source Media:
 
-Google Play
-Tidal (FLAC enabled)
 
 
The Charging Issue. Sigh
 
So yeah, when you go into OTG mode it starts draining the device. The bigger gotcha was what I discovered when I had the E5 plugged into the wall (wall->e5->Nexus 5). It appears that it is not feeding it 2.1 amps so if you are using your phone a lot expect you phone battery to drain as well (sigh). So far this morning I 've been listening to it connected as above for about two hours and my phone battery status, previous quite discharged, has increased about 12% while playing Tidal Flac music and some minor texting. This is definitely a let down and I am evaluating whether this is a deal breaker. Having both the E5 and my Nexus 5's batteries drain badly during a movie is very bad juju.
 
UDPATE 1:37pm - my phone is at 98% battery and the device is at like 1 light (20%'ish in the graphic) when I unplugged i. Really bad :| This explains why it kept shutting off last night (came with one dot of charge) while on OTG via host and  plugged into AC via USB mini. this sucks. this makes it seem as though I can only use it for a few hours until it fully dies and then I have to switch to Bluetooth while it recharges. 
 
I do understand that this is due to Android Open Accessory (AOA) protocol issues but it is still very annoying. This issue thread makes for unenjoyable reading: https://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=30612
 
OTG and Bluetooth Priority 
 
Some folks mentioned that they configured this with the Android client and I am not sure how. What I have been doing to make sure OTG kicks off is either disabling Bluetooth (enabling it renables BT audio, sigh) or going into an app like Google Play music and disconnecting the Bluetooth connection using the Chromecast-type icon. Overall it is finicky but workable.
 
Games
 
Source: Windows 8.1, configured with 2 speakers. Haven't tried it with anything else.
 
Feedback(pc): So far I only tried out Portal 2 while fiddling with the settings and I didn't notice any benefits from SBX yet. The audio itself sounds great though with or without SBX, with nice subtle positioning over the Realtek. Overall much louder and clearer than the Realtek.
 
Movies
 
Source: Tested out with JJ Abrams' Star Trek via Google Play. 
 
Feedback(android): Sounded a little more substantive that the headphone jack, with increased volume and reduced distortion at these higher volumes. When using SBX, the bass function came in very handy with the ability to pick what frequency focus you wanted to boost. Enabling / disabling Surround was different but no necessarily better, I did like Crystalizer - it's like Treble with a little more going on and I found it a welcome addition for a variety of movies / music depending on their source material faults.
 
Once thing that I noticed that caught my eye is that although my Nexus 5 does not support Apt-X, or better yet, Apt-X low latency, the google play movie on my phone was well in sync with the audio when using the Bluetooth option. I know Creative using something proprietary with their "Creative services" phone service app and it seems to do the trick. Useful if I am using both and charging them separately (lets say while in bed with a powerstrip nearby.
 
Music
 
Source: Google Play - Brian Eno - Another Green World
 
Feedback(android): Reduced Hiss and audio definition at lower volumes when using the E5 over the other two. The bass tracks have a little extra punch but nothing that appreciable. This is a limited quality source so YMMV.
Feedback(pc): very dramatic difference over the realtek (expected)
 
 
Source: Tidal - Lee Ann Womack - The Way I'm Livin - The Way I'm Livin
Feedback(android): The source is amazing and my my 36 Ohm M50's perform really well as is.This song is quite bright and lively so while there were some improvements, they were slight at best.
Feedback(pc): very dramatic difference over the realtek (expected)
 
Source: Tidal - Paul McCartney - NEW - Road
Feedback(android / pc): Once again my M50's do a decent job with this natively. The E06 incrased volume and reduces his but only at extreme levels. When using both USB and OTG I noticed slight but increased definition (less muddy) with the opening bass line - the chord strums were clearer and more defined. 
 
So far I've continued to toy with SBX and it does provide a benefit when kept at 30% or below for music, whether listening to music over movies.
I have not had a chance to plug it into my tv yet (blueray/cable TV - > TV -> optical -e5->M50s)
 
I've also tried out Bluetooth and while it has reduced volume levels and hits hiss much sooner, it is very good. I haven't had enough time with it so I haven't analyzed sound quality over OTG for example, but it is definitely acceptable. If you are chillin and just have music playing in the background during work, for example, it is fine.
 
 
So is it worth it? For the improvement in the audio over native, sure? For the Bluetooth connectivity? Not sure. I guess if I have it in a big, sure, but otherwise it seems kind of moot for these types of tests.
 
 
I would also like to echo arcwindz's request for more info on the multi-channel. I kind of knew it was going to be limiting going into it, but I still decided to get the E5 instead of something like the X7. From what I saw in the thread linked below, and unless the Creative rep was wrong, it looks like the X7 might not support multi-channel downmixing to 2 channel for headphones correctly or it might be glitchy. Evshrug seems to have gotten it to work but they seem unsure. 
 
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/745916/sound-blaster-x7-impressions-thoughts/105 
 
 
UPDATE Typos, grammar 
 
UDPATE 1:37pm - not being able to use it effectively without a computer without the battery dying sucks. I like the sound but this really makes it useless as a portable except when using it via bluetooth. 
 
*urge to return rising*
 
UPDATE 2PM: it appears that the E5 is charging, albeit slowly, but the app battery status gets screwed up. You have to unplug both the OTG and the wall and refresh the app battery status. It then checks out. the second I plug it back in it reads that it has almost no battery left (e5 battery light blinking rapidly and the app battery status says its almost dead)

 

[AUserName501]

Spoiler: Quote: arcwindz

Originally Posted by arcwindz /img/forum/go_quote.gif

Regarding the sbx studio, can the e5 receive the multi channel audio from game when it is displayed as stereo in the windows?

 
No.
 

Spoiler: Quote: DigitalRonyn

Originally Posted by DigitalRonyn /img/forum/go_quote.gif

Hey there this is Ryan from the Sound Blaster team.

In regards to SBX Surround, I thought I could give a bit of our methodology.  We are indeed taking individual streams as delivered by the game engine (or software player) and then placing them "virtually" in their correct positions via HRTF functions (and some other functions as well).
 
We're able to determine what is a static or stationary source of audio by directly comparing all the streams in real-time and this allows us to make an analysis of what's ambiance, what's a moving audio cue etc by comparing the various channel information. The more channels the more realistic the effect.

Some of the competing "virtual surrounds" are really just applying a reverb to different streams and sources and "spatializing" the sound which gives a more open sound, but also doesn't really focus in on audio cues and putting them in an accurate place relative to your head. Our expertise in the area really stems from our PC gaming background where that accuracy is really coveted by that demographic (and criticized pretty hard if it's not accurate enough).
 
I've noted the comments on the demo content from those contributing to this thread (as well as other critical feedback from everyone here as well). 
 
I also promise I'll be stopping in a lot more often and contributing where I can.

 
Is the virtual surround sound processing being done on the processor on the sound card or the CPU?
 
Some general feedback. SBX Pro Studio 7.1 would be useful to have as software that can output to a stereo USB DAC. No Creative hardware requirements because people want to use their own DAC and Amp. There are many here with very expensive DAC/Amp setups but want to use virtual surround sound for games. This is the one thing I really want from Creative and many others would want. This is what Razer Surround does but SBX Pro Studio sounds better than Razer Surround.
 
I don't know if you have control over what information is put in the technical specifications but the specifications for Creative DAC/Amp/Sound cards is awful. No mention of basics such as power output and output impedance. Your specifications should really be as detailed as Fiio's.
 
 

Spoiler: Quote: togiff

Originally Posted by togiff /img/forum/go_quote.gif

SBX actually is a hardware processing system developed by Creative Labs. It has a virtual surround mode - it may be as limited as a home theater DSP, or as powerful as what Creative Labs says on YouTube (SBX 3D surround mode is awesome, fully 3D, from stereo headphones). A cystalizer which I think is just a fancy digital compressor. A bass enhancement system. An on the fly normalizer. Another one for enhancing dialog like spoken word. Plus a full EQ. How many other amps have a full EQ in hardware?

When you play games with this thing you are going to have full EAX hardware acceleration if the game supports it. In theory EAX can do a virtual surround and output it to stereo/headphones. When watching movies you are going to want to use PowerDVD and the headphone down mix for Blu-ray and DVD to get the 5.1 virtual surround effect. It should be equiv of Dolby Headphone, where 5.1 is mixed into a virtual surround mode for headphones.

If this device supports the full SBX Studio Pro, here is a demo of its 3D surround mode which is ******* HQ: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlsIPwSj6Q0&list=PLjs0Dp6OVhbk6aQJI0ElCFCXNU21TPwHm

 
EAX is dead and has been for a very long time. Hardware sound processing was removed in Windows Vista onwards. All sound processing is done on the CPU. Most game developers use middleware such as Fmod or WWise.

 

[salve]

After further analysis and chats with their reps:
 
- It appears that pass-through charging works but both the device and app battery data are through completely off.
- It appears that the battery issue is going to be permanent due to an android issue so this really reduced what you can do with this thing on the go without another power supply to tag along.
- still not sure about the x7 vs e 5 when it comes to multiple source channels (not sure if the mix is better so to speak)

 

[arcwindz]

I hope we get some clear answer from the SB representative regarding the sbx pro studio.
I want a sound card for the virtual surround when gaming but want to pass through an external amp/dac, and e5 seems like the perfect replacement. The only thing i want to know is whether the e5 work like the sound blaster z or not (except that e5 is external)
If it works like dreyka said it is, then e5 would be pretty much a no go for me.

 

[DigitalRonyn]

Dreyka - We deploy SBX surround in both software and with hardware accelerated offerings. If a product is using an SBAxx-1 chipset (like the E5 or X7) the SBX Surround is being processed on the chipset. If it's a non-hardware accelerated product, we use the host (CPU) to process SBX Surround (like in the case of the E1 or E3).

To be clear though..the E5 is only a stereo device. So even though it's using the onboard CPU for SBX Surround processing, it's recognized by Windows as a Stereo device so windows downmixes to stereo and then the E5 will apply HRTF + Virtualizer using those stereo channels. The same goes for other forms of input like Optical / Bluetooth / Analog In.
 
(Arcwindz, I think this answers your request for clarification. Not with the answer you wanted, but with the current status, I'll update if anything changes).

And it's definitely noted on the standalone software front. I'll have more to talk about on that front soon

In regards to EAX, Microsoft did indeed kill off DirectSound in Vista which hampered our ability to get direct audio feeds, but with our driver installed we are able to take the audio streams and enhance them in real-time (via SBX tech). As a side note we do have our Alchemy software which allows you to play EAX enabled titles on the newer operating systems, but this is for legacy titles only.

 

[salve]

DigitalRonyn,

Thanks for the info.

Based on your comment about the E5 being stereo: what does that translate to in day to day use of an e5 vs an x7 when watching movies and playing games purely via good headphones? Is there a noticable different in positioning when listening to multichannel material down mixed by your tech?

At the moment I am using an e5, and while the SBX is beneficial, it definitely does not match up with I see in the videos.*

*I've tried some movies and only Portal 2 as a game. For the movies I am using PCM out from my TV and optical on the device.

 

[togiff]

Dreyka - We deploy SBX surround in both software and with hardware accelerated offerings. If a product is using an SBAxx-1 chipset (like the E5 or X7) the SBX Surround is being processed on the chipset. If it's a non-hardware accelerated product, we use the host (CPU) to process SBX Surround (like in the case of the E1 or E3).



To be clear though..the E5 is only a stereo device. So even though it's using the onboard CPU for SBX Surround processing, it's recognized by Windows as a Stereo device so windows downmixes to stereo and then the E5 will apply HRTF + Virtualizer using those stereo channels. The same goes for other forms of input like Optical / Bluetooth / Analog In.


 


(Arcwindz, I think this answers your request for clarification. Not with the answer you wanted, but with the current status, I'll update if anything changes).



And it's definitely noted on the standalone software front. I'll have more to talk about on that front soon



In regards to EAX, Microsoft did indeed kill off DirectSound in Vista which hampered our ability to get direct audio feeds, but with our driver installed we are able to take the audio streams and enhance them in real-time (via SBX tech). As a side note we do have our Alchemy software which allows you to play EAX enabled titles on the newer operating systems, but this is for legacy titles only.

 


Thanks for clarifying that. It would seem then that the E5 does not have SBX 3D surround, meaning it is stereo mix with some added reverb and spacial effects at best. Sad to see because i was looking for a reason to keep this thing, hardware mixed surround for headphone sounded cool. I was hoping the E5 could take a 5.1 or 7.1 signal and downmix to stereo, but it doesn't, or mix game sound streams to SBX 3D surround for headphones.

Also EAX is long dead as no current software supports it. I believe the last game to support Creative's tech is from 2007? No games since support EAX. The hardware acts as a regular soundcard.

Yes eax should work nicely but only on old games that actually used it!

After tinkering with this device I am back to the stage of disappointment. SBX doesn't work for nothing, sbx bass is mushy, something about its pure pass through of audio off (doesnt sound powerful or bassy w/o EQ like i am used to). Because of how crappy SBX effects are i prefer them off, but being off isnt a good experience either.

I am a purist, prefer no EQ, just pass thru of purist properly amped signal.

I secretly wonder if the problem is the dac ?

I have Sennheiser HD 650 & Westone 4 for headphones, i actually prefer the sound direct from my Galaxy S4 to the E5 hooked up as a dac..

But in theory the E5 should be bumping, it doesnt. Damnit!!

I did have a fiio e18, i definitely prefer that sound to this. It is so sad to me because the specs of the E5 rock, with all its features..

Reviewers also are saying it .. It should sound better w/o enhancements, more clarity, more power, more bass, etc..

 

[salve]

Dreyka - We deploy SBX surround in both software and with hardware accelerated offerings. If a product is using an SBAxx-1 chipset (like the E5 or X7) the SBX Surround is being processed on the chipset. If it's a non-hardware accelerated product, we use the host (CPU) to process SBX Surround (like in the case of the E1 or E3).



To be clear though..the E5 is only a stereo device. So even though it's using the onboard CPU for SBX Surround processing, it's recognized by Windows as a Stereo device so windows downmixes to stereo and then the E5 will apply HRTF + Virtualizer using those stereo channels. The same goes for other forms of input like Optical / Bluetooth / Analog In.


 


(Arcwindz, I think this answers your request for clarification. Not with the answer you wanted, but with the current status, I'll update if anything changes).



And it's definitely noted on the standalone software front. I'll have more to talk about on that front soon



In regards to EAX, Microsoft did indeed kill off DirectSound in Vista which hampered our ability to get direct audio feeds, but with our driver installed we are able to take the audio streams and enhance them in real-time (via SBX tech). As a side note we do have our Alchemy software which allows you to play EAX enabled titles on the newer operating systems, but this is for legacy titles only.

 


Thanks for clarifying that. It would seem then that the E5 does not have SBX 3D surround, meaning it is stereo mix with some added reverb and spacial effects at best. Sad to see because i was looking for a reason to keep this thing, hardware mixed surround for headphone sounded cool. I was hoping the E5 could take a 5.1 or 7.1 signal and downmix to stereo, but it doesn't, or mix game sound streams to SBX 3D surround for headphones.

Also EAX is long dead as no current software supports it. I believe the last game to support Creative's tech is from 2007? No games since support EAX. The hardware acts as a regular soundcard.

Yes eax should work nicely but only on old games that actually used it!

After tinkering with this device I am back to the stage of disappointment. SBX doesn't work for nothing, sbx bass is mushy, something about its pure pass through of audio off (doesnt sound powerful or bassy w/o EQ like i am used to). Because of how crappy SBX effects are i prefer them off, but being off isnt a good experience either.

I am a purist, prefer no EQ, just pass thru of purist properly amped signal.

I secretly wonder if the problem is the dac ?

I have Sennheiser HD 650 & Westone 4 for headphones, i actually prefer the sound direct from my Galaxy S4 to the E5 hooked up as a dac..

But in theory the E5 should be bumping, it doesnt. Damnit!!

I did have a fiio e18, i definitely prefer that sound to this. It is so sad to me because the specs of the E5 rock, with all its features..

Reviewers also are saying it .. It should sound better w/o enhancements, more clarity, more power, more bass, etc..

It looks like they have the same tech (sbx surround or whatever) but you only have stereo sources to work with when using the E5 so the effect is minor at best.

As for the raw output, I will admit that it is a tad bight with my cans (m50) but that was to be expected. Bass is light but it is accurate.

As for the bass, I actually had really good results with SBX when bumping it up. I had to keep the Frequency response and levels pretty low (40-70hz) but it sounded great. Using it right now @ 13% / 80hz and it adds a clean boost.

Like you I might also return it. Based on this video http://youtu.be/d1_20T8x_OI it looks like the X7 might be the one for me.

 

[AUserName501]

Spoiler: Quote: DigitalRonyn

Originally Posted by DigitalRonyn /img/forum/go_quote.gif

Dreyka - We deploy SBX surround in both software and with hardware accelerated offerings. If a product is using an SBAxx-1 chipset (like the E5 or X7) the SBX Surround is being processed on the chipset. If it's a non-hardware accelerated product, we use the host (CPU) to process SBX Surround (like in the case of the E1 or E3).

To be clear though..the E5 is only a stereo device. So even though it's using the onboard CPU for SBX Surround processing, it's recognized by Windows as a Stereo device so windows downmixes to stereo and then the E5 will apply HRTF + Virtualizer using those stereo channels. The same goes for other forms of input like Optical / Bluetooth / Analog In.
 
(Arcwindz, I think this answers your request for clarification. Not with the answer you wanted, but with the current status, I'll update if anything changes).

And it's definitely noted on the standalone software front. I'll have more to talk about on that front soon

In regards to EAX, Microsoft did indeed kill off DirectSound in Vista which hampered our ability to get direct audio feeds, but with our driver installed we are able to take the audio streams and enhance them in real-time (via SBX tech). As a side note we do have our Alchemy software which allows you to play EAX enabled titles on the newer operating systems, but this is for legacy titles only.

 

 
Is the hardware-accelerated and non hardware-accelerated algorithms the same? If you processed the same 5.1 audio clip through software and the other through hardware would the end result be the same?
 
I'm aware the E5 is a stereo device. The problem is that it isn't possible to have 5.1 or 7.1 virtual surround sound in games with it. Many games will only send 5.1 or 7.1 channel audio if the playback device in Windows appears as a 5.1 or 7.1 speaker setup. As the E1/3/5 doesn't appear as a 7.1 speaker setup it means that 7.1 virtual surround sound isn't possible in these games. This is my core problem with the E series lineup because 7.1 virtual surround sound is a strong selling point to headphone users and the E series is made for headphones.
 
I know that you have your Alchemy work around and if you are playing older games then it may be of value (though too complex to setup for most people) but in the current industry it is dead. AMD has their "trueaudio" on some of their GPUs but no developer is using it. It's a shame this technology is dead when Oculus with RealSpace 3D is pushing for simulating how the room affects sound because they have recognized its huge importance for VR.