[rochm]

Update: today Creative push an update of the app "sound blaster central "to enable the 96000 playback with E5, now no issues... On IOS

 

[HotIce]

Was there a problem for 96KHz sample rate? I use 96K/24 from my Linux box, and never had issues.

 

[ClieOS]

Was there a problem for 96KHz sample rate? I use 96K/24 from my Linux box, and never had issues.

 
Not a problem per se, just that it was limited to 24/48 on iOS and 24/48 on Android until recent firmware update.

 

[DigitalRonyn]

Hey Kodhifi - Just wanted to clarify for you.

SBX in HEADPHONE mode is indeed using dynamic HRTFs. It's definitely not just applying a reverb signal. In fact our upmixer goes to 9.2 channels and applies HRTFs using that channel information versus the standard 7.1 of the other guys. This is processed in real-time and applied dynamically and accurately. The extra upmixer channels typically gives us a much better head to head result in sound placement once it's mixed back down to the stereo signal with HRTFs applied.
 
SBX in STEREO mode is not using HRTFs. 
 
So if you want accurate and dynamic surround virtualization on headphones, make sure to set your E5 (or X7) to HEADPHONE mode and this will do the trick.

 

[rochm]

Not a problem to playback flac at 32bit/384khz but hardware iPhone 5s limit to send to the DAC was 24/48 and now with the updated firmware is 24/96. On my pc Windows it was at 24/192 limited by DAC with foobar2000. More than 24/96 I didn't ear or having an impression of a better sound. What I told is flac player have a information of the hardware connected to iPhone and display the device and the sampling rate used by. My issues was it displays 48khz before the app update. So it appears telling right information after all... enjoy

 

[Kodhifi]

Quote:

  Hey Kodhifi - Just wanted to clarify for you.

SBX in HEADPHONE mode is indeed using dynamic HRTFs. It's definitely not just applying a reverb signal. In fact our upmixer goes to 9.2 channels and applies HRTFs using that channel information versus the standard 7.1 of the other guys. This is processed in real-time and applied dynamically and accurately. The extra upmixer channels typically gives us a much better head to head result in sound placement once it's mixed back down to the stereo signal with HRTFs applied.
 
SBX in STEREO mode is not using HRTFs. 
 
So if you want accurate and dynamic surround virtualization on headphones, make sure to set your E5 (or X7) to HEADPHONE mode and this will do the trick.

 

 


I appreciate an inside opinion, but since the WDM driver is only sending you 2 channel audio, you can upscale it to 1000 channels, and it won't make a lick of difference, the surround information isn't there, so there is nothing for HRTF to mix. It's applying a reverb effect to a 2 channel source, this is not surround no matter how you try to argue otherwise.
 
I can appreciate you have a company line to tote, but if you listened to even a mediocre dolby headphone setup like the Plantronics Gamecon, where you configure windows to use it as a 5.1 or 7.1 device, and you get true multi directional front rear and side HRTF encoding, the sound is superior to the 5's 'effect'.
 
You can see in the screenshots below that windows only detects the E5 as a 2 channel audio source. Stereo in, stereo out, no HRTF. HRTF for simulated surround requires the windows driver model to supply surround information. For comparison I included a screenshot of my vanilla realtek on board audio, which windows detects as a surround device.
 
If windows detected the E5 as more than just stereo, I might believe what you're saying. You can't create directional audio from a 2 channel source, that's not how it works. You can create a 2 channel output, from a 4, 5.1, or 7.1 input, apply HRTF to it and encode it as dolby headphone and it tricks the ears with directional cues and sounds like real surround. The E5 doesn't do this, it applies a reverb effect to a 2 channel source.

 

[Sam21]

"the surround information isn't there, so there is nothing for HRTF to mix."
 
when a game outputs 2 channels or 8 channels , no matter how many channels it outputs, it always outputs the same information. when it outputs 2 channels everything is crammed into 2 channels, when it outputs 8 channels , the game software separates the information and outputs them in 8 channels. That is my understanding. I could be wrong but I have several external soundcards from Asus and creative that only accept two input channels.

 

[Kodhifi]

  "the surround information isn't there, so there is nothing for HRTF to mix."
 
when a game outputs 2 channels or 8 channels , no matter how many channels it outputs, it always outputs the same information. when it outputs 2 channels everything is crammed into 2 channels, when it outputs 8 channels , the game software separates the information and outputs them in 8 channels. That is my understanding. I could be wrong but I have several external soundcards from Asus and creative that only accept two input channels.

 
For a HRTF based solution to create a convincing directional surround image, it needs input from more than 2 channels. The windows driver model or WDM, can send audio to a driver, encoder, or DAC as 2 channel, 4 channel, 5.1 channel, 7.1 channel, etc. The HRTF encoder then takes the directional information from the multiple channels, figures out how to use HRTF trickery to fool the ears, and re-encodes the signal as a 2 channel output with directional cues included. What your ears hear is a very convincing surround image where objects can be both in front of and behind you. If an enemy sneaks up behind you in a game to stab you in the back, they sound like they are coming from behind, not from the front.
 
The game isn't really outputting any channels of sound, it connects to the WDM driver model in windows, and the WDM renders the sound, and directs the WDM stream to the audio driver, which then takes care of the messy business of connecting it to hardware and making actual audio. The WDM framework includes surround information with the directx libraries so any directx game automatically sends positional information, but in order for an audio driver like soundblasters driver, or plantronics driver etc to make sense of it, the WDM model must detect it as multi channel, and send it a multi channel audio stream.
 
With the E5, windows and the WDM model detect it as only 2 channels. The driver ignores surround information from the game because the WDM model is only sending the audio driver 2 channel stereo. Since the E5 only receives a stereo stream, even if it had a HRTF surround encoder, there is no surround information to encode, only stereo, so it is impossible to have a surround output.
 
Now there are some games which have dolby headphone built into them, including some DVD and bluray software. Those are outputting directional surround, but it's doing the HRTF encoding in the software before it ever hits the WDM model or the audio driver. IE the software is doing the surround, not the end device and any sound device would output the signal including on board audio, even bluetooth.
 
I'm telling you as clearly as I can, if windows doesn't detect the device as multi channel, it won't send multi channel, if it does't send multichannel, there is no surround information, if there is no surround information, you can't encode surround.

 

[Sam21]

"I'm telling you as clearly as I can, if windows doesn't detect the device as multi channel, it won't send multi channel, if it does't send multichannel, there is no surround information, if there is no surround information, you can't encode surround."
 
Newer algorithms don't need multi channels to create virtual surround. By your thinking, A game that can output 2 channels or 5.1 channels, adds extra information to the output channels when one switches from 2 to 5.1 and cuts down information when switching from 5.1 to 2. That is absurd. 
 
So, conclusion is that whether a game outputs 2 channels or 5.1 channels, it always outputs the same information, newer algorithms make use of this fact. they take two channels from windows and apply the algorithm. and then you have virtual surround.

 

[arcwindz]

"I'm telling you as clearly as I can, if windows doesn't detect the device as multi channel, it won't send multi channel, if it does't send multichannel, there is no surround information, if there is no surround information, you can't encode surround."

Newer algorithms don't need multi channels to create virtual surround. By your thinking, A game that can output 2 channels or 5.1 channels, adds extra information to the output channels when one switches from 2 to 5.1 and cuts down information when switching from 5.1 to 2. That is absurd. 

So, conclusion is that whether a game outputs 2 channels or 5.1 channels, it always outputs the same information, newer algorithms make use of this fact. they take two channels from windows and apply the algorithm. and then you have virtual surround.

Dude, use quote lol

And no, i don't think you are right. I sure don't know how the game sound works, but a 5.1 sound channel will have more information than stereo channel, it's not the same.
And afaik sbx will need that extra information to downscale surround to stereo

Creative cards and even the x7 are all properly detected as surround output, i don't know whether it is because of e5 unique position as a mobile "audiophile" amp/dac, but there you have it.

 

[Kodhifi]

  "I'm telling you as clearly as I can, if windows doesn't detect the device as multi channel, it won't send multi channel, if it does't send multichannel, there is no surround information, if there is no surround information, you can't encode surround."
 
Newer algorithms don't need multi channels to create virtual surround. By your thinking, A game that can output 2 channels or 5.1 channels, adds extra information to the output channels when one switches from 2 to 5.1 and cuts down information when switching from 5.1 to 2. That is absurd. 
 
So, conclusion is that whether a game outputs 2 channels or 5.1 channels, it always outputs the same information, newer algorithms make use of this fact. they take two channels from windows and apply the algorithm. and then you have virtual surround.

I don't think you understand how computer audio works. I've tried to explain it to you but it's a complex subject. SBX takes a 2 channel input, applies an effect to it, and renders it as  2 channel output. Even if it creates 9.1 audio it's still 2 channels in, 9.1, 2 channels out and that is not HRTF.
 
There is a world of difference between creating 5 channels out of 2, and creating 2 channels out of 5.
 
The only way that surround information has ever been encoded in a 2 channel stream is phase encoding, like the old school Dolby surround where L = L, R = R, Surround = L-R, Center = L+R. If a sound arrives out of phase, L-R has a difference of potential and you get surround, but it's monophonic surround and it's only useful for encoding things like reverb, it's not directional, IE no airplanes flying overhead or Scorpions hand speak flying around the back channels in a circle. At most the SBX is doing something like L-R to try and extrapolate phase information, however I've tested this and it's not what it's doing.
 
There are a number of audio tracks that exhibit strong phase surround sound where you play the track on an old school Dolby system, and certain parts of the song trigger the surround effect strongly and come from the rear channel. I have listened to them on SBX and it doesn't do it. What it does do is apply a reverb effect to a stereo signal, and I can replicate the sound of SBX with any song, simply by adding a reverb effect to it.
 
HRTF or head related transfer function, is a conceptual encoding technique where in phase and filtering techniques attempt to trick the ear into localizing sound in all directions from only a set of headphones. It alters the phase of an incoming surround stream an mixes it down to 2 channels. A sound occurring dircectly behind you for instance will be out of phase but also have high frequencies rolled off because you're hearing the sound reflected off of other objects, the HRTF converter needs to know the sound is behind you, in order to encode it behind you. The E5 doesn't have some kind of direct line to a game's audio engine to tell where sounds are coming from, it is instead simply rendering a WDM or directx audio stream sent by windows. The games engine, and windows direct x do all of the surround processing and convert it into 2 or more channels of sound, which are then sent to a soundcard. The soundcard only receives audio streams and it doesn't really know 'where' a sound is coming from, it's dumb and just playing audio. The only reason it knows a sound is behind you is because the front channel streams don't have the sound in them but the back channels do. However if it's only sent 2 channels, there is no front and back, therefor there is no processing of positional audio.
 
In any case I have tried my best to explain it in both layman terms and technical detail. If you still don't understand then I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I am stating the technical specifications of the audio stream, not my opinion of them.

 

[DigitalRonyn]

 
I appreciate an inside opinion, but since the WDM driver is only sending you 2 channel audio, you can upscale it to 1000 channels, and it won't make a lick of difference, the surround information isn't there, so there is nothing for HRTF to mix. It's applying a reverb effect to a 2 channel source, this is not surround no matter how you try to argue otherwise.
 
I can appreciate you have a company line to tote, but if you listened to even a mediocre dolby headphone setup like the Plantronics Gamecon, where you configure windows to use it as a 5.1 or 7.1 device, and you get true multi directional front rear and side HRTF encoding, the sound is superior to the 5's 'effect'.
 
You can see in the screenshots below that windows only detects the E5 as a 2 channel audio source. Stereo in, stereo out, no HRTF. HRTF for simulated surround requires the windows driver model to supply surround information. For comparison I included a screenshot of my vanilla realtek on board audio, which windows detects as a surround device.
 
If windows detected the E5 as more than just stereo, I might believe what you're saying. You can't create directional audio from a 2 channel source, that's not how it works. You can create a 2 channel output, from a 4, 5.1, or 7.1 input, apply HRTF to it and encode it as dolby headphone and it tricks the ears with directional cues and sounds like real surround. The E5 doesn't do this, it applies a reverb effect to a 2 channel source.

Definitely see the point you're making here and appreciate you laying it out visually.
 
We are however still using an HRTF in the final downmixed result. Despite there being only a stereo source..we're upmixing that stereo source and making a compare between the two channels and making assumptions based on the comparison. It's nowhere near as accurate as having a 5.1 or 7.1 source, but an HRTF is being applied to the end result in headphone mode.

That being said, you are absolutely spot on. The more channels our intake has to deal with, the more realistic and accurate the surround result is going to be. A stereo source is only going to provide so much information that you can base assumptions on.

The basic functionality of our SBX surround over headphones works as follows:

Receive Input from Source Device (Stereo / 5.1 / 7.1) > Upmixer > Apply HRTF based algorithms > Downmix back down to stereo. The more channels (source information) we have to play with..the more convincing and realistic the result is going to be.
 
The E5 was conceived as a portable headphone amp / dac and thus the original intent was to keep it as "pure" a device as possible with stereo being the spec.

We've seen a lot of demand since launch from users for additional functionality as they are looking for a solution they can use at their desktop as an internal card replacement (with headphones) as well as something they can take on the road. The flexibility of the device and our chipset has allowed us to add additional functionality. Scout Mode being an example of something that our engineers could deploy due to the flexibility of the design and the way the tech utilizes the SBAxx-1 chipset that's in the E5.

We'll keep on improving as we see more requests and the ability with the product to do so.
 
And just to be clear..my tone here is definitely not combative! I love the fact that there's an extremely knowledgeable base of users here in the forum and this feedback definitely makes its way to our product team. My goal is just to clarify the tech and how we've deployed SBX Surround with the E5.

 

[moophus]

Sorry to hijack the ongoing conversation but since we have DigitalRonyn's attention in this thread, please explain the microphone profiles shown in the e5 control app!

 

[DigitalRonyn]

  Sorry to hijack the ongoing conversation but since we have DigitalRonyn's attention in this thread, please explain the microphone profiles shown in the e5 control app!

 
Hey moophus,
 
The mic profiles are preset EQ curves that provide different focuses for the microphones.

In the pic here you can see the basic idea / curve behind each mic EQ. 

We included them since some may be ideal for different situations where you'd be recording with the E5.

 

[Kodhifi]

 


Definitely see the point you're making here and appreciate you laying it out visually.
 
We are however still using an HRTF in the final downmixed result. Despite there being only a stereo source..we're upmixing that stereo source and making a compare between the two channels and making assumptions based on the comparison. It's nowhere near as accurate as having a 5.1 or 7.1 source, but an HRTF is being applied to the end result in headphone mode.

That being said, you are absolutely spot on. The more channels our intake has to deal with, the more realistic and accurate the surround result is going to be. A stereo source is only going to provide so much information that you can base assumptions on.

The basic functionality of our SBX surround over headphones works as follows:

Receive Input from Source Device (Stereo / 5.1 / 7.1) > Upmixer > Apply HRTF based algorithms > Downmix back down to stereo. The more channels (source information) we have to play with..the more convincing and realistic the result is going to be.
 
The E5 was conceived as a portable headphone amp / dac and thus the original intent was to keep it as "pure" a device as possible with stereo being the spec.

We've seen a lot of demand since launch from users for additional functionality as they are looking for a solution they can use at their desktop as an internal card replacement (with headphones) as well as something they can take on the road. The flexibility of the device and our chipset has allowed us to add additional functionality. Scout Mode being an example of something that our engineers could deploy due to the flexibility of the design and the way the tech utilizes the SBAxx-1 chipset that's in the E5.

We'll keep on improving as we see more requests and the ability with the product to do so.
 
And just to be clear..my tone here is definitely not combative! I love the fact that there's an extremely knowledgeable base of users here in the forum and this feedback definitely makes its way to our product team. My goal is just to clarify the tech and how we've deployed SBX Surround with the E5.

I didn't take your response as combative; no worries. I don't want people looking for a true HRTF headphone surround solution to mistake the E5 as being capable of that. And honestly with it's end audience being audiophiles we really don't care about HRTF or gaming features like scout mode. What I personally would have loved to see in the E5 would be L and R cross mixing to better replicate the sound stage of a speaker set up. This doesn't require a lot of processing, it just mixes a little of the left channel into the right, and right into the left and it makes the sound move out of the center of your head and puts it in front of you. There are certain sound effects in music tracks that sound natural on a speaker set up, but make your head hurt on a headphone because in real life your left ear hears sounds that your right ear would hear even if the sound was to the right, but on a headphone since the driver is directly over your ear, it's possible to play a sound in the left headphone and your right ear will never hear it. For instance an audio track that used a slight delay between left channel and right channel, on a speaker system may sound like an echo BOOMboom TATtat. But on a headphone it would cause confusion as the sound appears in left and then right miliseconds apart.
 
That being said, if Creative Labs wanted to add a true HRTF function to the E5 they need only enable it in the windows driver and let the PC do all the work of encoding surround to headphone. That is what Plantronics does with their Gamecon. The headphone is just a dumb USB device, it has no special processing built in, but the windows driver runs everything through the dolby headphone plugin before rendering it to the headphone's DAC. The driver is detected as a multi channel surround device by windows in order to provide the dolby headphone with surround information. I don't doubt that Creative Labs could easily do that on the driver side without modifying anything in the E5's firmware, but again, I think the emphasis should be kept on audiophile needs and not try to make it a gamer card, you have the Xfi for that.
 
One other request is that you unlock the other bit and sample rates that conform to the USB audio standard. Without installing Creative's drivers, the E5 is only allowed to use 24bit 48khz sampling with no other options available. My guess is because this is the native bit rate of the digital mixer built into the E5, and when you install the Creative driver it's simply re-converting anything higher or lower, back to 24/48 before sending it to the DAC. I know the DAC chip itself supports 24/192 but you guys obviously have a digital mixer built inline between the USB decoder and the DAC, hence the reason you can't enable a true direct mode. Blu-tooth is always mixed because the digital mixer is always on and can't be turned off, even in 'direct mode'.