[ClieOS]

  I got a Xonar U3 for £10 used today. It supports Optical Out (16/48Khz only though) and Dolby Headphone 7.1 with DH1, 2 and 3. It also has the capability to appear as a 7.1 Speaker Setup under Playback Devices in Windows as any product that sells virtual surround sound should. The Creative E1/3/5 don't support this when a cheap Xonar U3 does is just awful. An absolute embarassment that their headphone DAC/Amp products do not support such basic functionality as 7.1 virtual surround sound.
 

 
I have seen 1k+ DAC+amp that doesn't support Dolby Headphone or 7.1 surround sound as well. Shame on them too!
 
 
Quote:

   
Also Creative still don't specify important information such as Output Impedance for the Creative E1 and E3. At least they now specify the output impedance of the E5 is 2.2Ω.
 

 
...because Creative has transitionally never have that many customer that focus much on output impedance, same for most PC soundcard manufacturer. The reason for E5's output impedance being listed is exactly because we at Head-fi asked them to, after E1 and E3 release. It is, for the least, a progress. In fact, I do believe Creative was originally planning to have much higher output impedance on E5 as recommended by the chip manufacturer, but revised it before release because they have heard the feedback on Head-fi.

 

[AUserName501]

Spoiler: Quote: ClieOS

Originally Posted by ClieOS /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 
I have seen 1k+ DAC+amp that doesn't support Dolby Headphone or 7.1 surround sound as well. Shame on them too!
 
...because Creative has transitionally never have that many customer that focus much on output impedance, same for most PC soundcard manufacturer. The reason for E5's output impedance being listed is exactly because we at Head-fi asked them to, after E1 and E3 release. It is, for the least, a progress. In fact, I do believe Creative was originally planning to have much higher output impedance on E5 as recommended by the chip manufacturer, but revised it before release because they have heard the feedback on Head-fi.

 

 
Creative has had virtual surround sound for more than a decade and it was a staple of them being a brand that marketed to people who play video games. Not including it in your Headphone DAC/Amp line-up is simply a disaster.
 
Any brand that advertises to audiophiles but doesn't list output impedance needs to do better. That is critical information for people using balanced armature drivers. It's not hard to measure either.
 
If Creative was intending to release a higher output impedance E5 then it would confirm that they don't have a clue. The output impedance on their soundcards is already way too high.

 

[KritiKal]

...Not including it in your Headphone DAC/Amp line-up is simply a disaster...

Well that's going a bit too far IMO. It's still a well selling DAC, that performs well for the price, most are happy with it and it has received great reviews. It's a success IMO, and I'm sure it's a success in the eyes of Creative too.

Having said that, I would have loved 7.1ch virtualizer and would have made use of it, but it never came in to consideration when making my purchase.

 

[ClieOS]

  Creative has had virtual surround sound for more than a decade and it was a staple of them being a brand that marketed to people who play video games. Not including it in your Headphone DAC/Amp line-up is simply a disaster.
 
Any brand that advertises to audiophiles but doesn't list output impedance needs to do better. That is critical information for people using balanced armature drivers. It's not hard to measure either.
 
If Creative was intending to release a higher output impedance E5 then it would confirm that they don't have a clue. The output impedance on their soundcards is already way too high.

 
I don't disagree with you. But the E series is really their first foray into the portable headphone user oriented market that isn't entirely about the gaming world. So the way I see it, they do make a few mistakes on the way, but not something other companies haven't made before. The important bit is that Creative is listening and willing to make change to its products on the fly to better suit what the user wants. Now if we were to look at, say Sony - it has similar portable DAC/amp products (PHA series) as well, and in fact, for quite a few more years and currently in its third generation.  Output impedance is never officially listed for any of them either, even for the latest gen (*not to mention the eailer one has pretty high output impedance too). They too have virtual surround sound products decades ago but never implement any into the PHA series, and this is one of the largest gaming company in the world. You would have thought that maybe someone from Sony would realize that perhaps some of their PHA user are also their gamer as well, but I guess not.
 
While criticism has its place, I think constructive criticism is even better, especially to someone who are willing to listen. We should also give them the time to make change of course - if it is for the better, then the user benefit as well. If it is not for the better, at least we have given them the chance and we don't have anything to lose anyway. The current E series is far from perfect, and even E5, as I reckon, still lacks a few things to really match up with the best of the competition. But what I am seeing is not just E5 and certainly not just now. Creative has the capability to do things right and they have, so far, shown to be willing to do things right. What they need, I think, is for us to tell them exactly what we want. So there is no need to disregard them entirely just yet, I think. It is just as much a learning process for them as it is for any newbie into the headphone world - and from the look of it, they are certainly still learning their way around the headphone world.

 

[AUserName501]

Spoiler: Quote: ClieOS

Originally Posted by ClieOS /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 
I don't disagree with you. But the E series is really their first foray into the portable headphone user oriented market that isn't entirely about the gaming world. So the way I see it, they do make a few mistakes on the way, but not something other companies haven't made before. The important bit is that Creative is listening and willing to make change to its products on the fly to better suit what the user wants. Now if we were to look at, say Sony - it has similar portable DAC/amp products (PHA series) as well, and in fact, for quite a few more years and currently in its third generation.  Output impedance is never officially listed for any of them either, even for the latest gen (*not to mention the eailer one has pretty high output impedance too). They too have virtual surround sound products decades ago but never implement any into the PHA series, and this is one of the largest gaming company in the world. You would have thought that maybe someone from Sony would realize that perhaps some of their PHA user are also their gamer as well, but I guess not.
 
While criticism has its place, I think constructive criticism is even better, especially to someone who are willing to listen. We should also give them the time to make change of course - if it is for the better, then the user benefit as well. If it is not for the better, at least we have given them the chance and we don't have anything to lose anyway. The current E series is far from perfect, and even E5, as I reckon, still lacks a few things to really match up with the best of the competition. But what I am seeing is not just E5 and certainly not just now. Creative has the capability to do things right and they have, so far, shown to be willing to do things right. What they need, I think, is for us to tell them exactly what we want. So there is no need to disregard them entirely just yet, I think. It is just as much a learning process for them as it is for any newbie into the headphone world - and from the look of it, they are certainly still learning their way around the headphone world.

 
I can't help but think you are arguing for the sake of arguing even though you agree with me. You're just making excuses but this isn't their first time making audio products. They've been making them for years.
 
The E3 is awful and suggests no clear idea of what they actually wanted it to be. The desire for it to be powerful and power two headphones at once ended up killing its use with IEMs. It doesn't even support Virtual Surround Sound which is a key feature of Creative that Fiio can't offer. At the moment it seems the Noble BTS is going to be a far better product that does what the E3 should have done well.
 
Do you really think Creative is willing to make changes though. Their software has been notorious for being buggy and terrible for years. X-Fi MB3 is a buggy mess when it could have been something great. Their own forums are littered with spam and derelict. Nothing about Creative has given me the impression that they have passion to make something and do it well. It's all half-baked ideas and poor execution. They've got so many advantages over Fiio but they just haven't executed them well.
 
If Creative actually listens and implements changes then that would be great but their history hasn't given me much hope. At least they actually have a presence on Head Fi but that doesn't mean much unless that feedback makes it back to the engineers. Creative, unlike Fiio, seem to have one foot in average consumer audio and one foot in audiophile audio which is how you end up with ideas like being able to power two headphones at once even though nobody here really wants that. When you are torn in different directions you usually end up with a product that simply isn't as good for enthusiasts.
 
They should really stop using digital volume control as well. I couldn't go above 5% in Windows with IEMs and the Creative E3 due to how loud they got.
 

 They too have virtual surround sound products decades ago but never implement any into the PHA series, and this is one of the largest gaming company in the world.

 
Sony has separate divisions that don't really work together and are pretty much their own entities. It's not surprising that their DACs do not have VSS. They don't seem to have any presence on audiophile forums but they might just stick to Japanese ones.

 

[ClieOS]

   
I can't help but think you are arguing for the sake of arguing even though you agree with me. You're just making excuses but this isn't their first time making audio products. They've been making them for years.

 
...and I too think there are too many complaints in thread just for the sake of complaining, but to each of his/her own, I guess. I'll only point out that complaining about not getting things that are not promised in the first place doesn't make any sense to me. That's all.
 
There are definitely cons in the E series, as you have pointed out, and I have pointed out some of them in the past as well. If Creative as a company really doesn't inspire any confidence for you, then I think it is best to avoid it all together.My first Creative was decades ago and I have seen the company's rise and fall. To be honest, I never thought they will ever make a comeback because they are always slow to change and even fail to change sometime. The E series, to me at least, show that not all hope is lost. So instead of hitting them with a big stick, my prefer way is to pat them on the back and tell them to do better next time. You might not agree or believe in this, but I have seen some positive change coming out of it. E5 is the best example so far, and I am hoping for more.
 
p/s: There are actually Sony reps in the forum btw.

 

[Kodhifi]

virtual surround sound what? Unless I missed something, the E5 does NOT have surround sound. It has an effect it can apply but that effect is based on a stereo signal. Contrast this with something like the Plantronics gamecon which accepts a 5.1 or 7.1 signal from the windows audio system, runs it through Dolby headphone, and outputs it as HRTF stereo. The E5 is only utilized as a stereo device by the operating system, meaning there is no way to send it surround information to encode. What it's doing is taking a stereo signal and doing Left minus Right type of Dolby Surround (the old kind that wasn't digital) to fake it.
 
The difference is large. Actual 5.1 input mixed with a HRTF model results in sounds that are very much like what you'd get with a surround system. If somebody is behind you in a game, or a helicopter flies overhead, you hear the sound behind you or overhead.
 
With what the E5 is doing this wouldn't be the case. Instead it's taking a stereo image that has no surround information and trying to make it sound like surroundn, so an enemy behind you would sound the same as an enemy in front of you, the surround layer has no link to depth information in the audio signal.
 
You actually configure the windows sound device as a 5.1 or 7.1 speaker system with the Plantronics setup, but the E5 is still only detected as stereo, headphone, or 2.1.

 

[KritiKal]

virtual surround sound what? Unless I missed something, the E5 does NOT have surround sound. It has an effect it can apply but that effect is based on a stereo signal. Contrast this with something like the Plantronics gamecon which accepts a 5.1 or 7.1 signal from the windows audio system, runs it through Dolby headphone, and outputs it as HRTF stereo. The E5 is only utilized as a stereo device by the operating system, meaning there is no way to send it surround information to encode. What it's doing is taking a stereo signal and doing Left minus Right type of Dolby Surround (the old kind that wasn't digital) to fake it.

The difference is large. Actual 5.1 input mixed with a HRTF model results in sounds that are very much like what you'd get with a surround system. If somebody is behind you in a game, or a helicopter flies overhead, you hear the sound behind you or overhead.

With what the E5 is doing this wouldn't be the case. Instead it's taking a stereo image that has no surround information and trying to make it sound like surroundn, so an enemy behind you would sound the same as an enemy in front of you, the surround layer has no link to depth information in the audio signal.

You actually configure the windows sound device as a 5.1 or 7.1 speaker system with the Plantronics setup, but the E5 is still only detected as stereo, headphone, or 2.1.

Yep, and it's been the main topic for the past 30 pages, the same thing again and again.

 

[Sam21]

How Can I pair the Sound Blaster EVO ZxR with the E5 wirelessly ? which scenario below works ?
 
 
PS4/XBone Optical out --> E5 Optical in --> SBX effects --> E5 DAC -->(Wirelessly) ZxR
 
PS4/XBone Optical out --> E5 Optical in --> SBX effects --> (Wirelessly) ZxR DAC
 
PS4/XBone Optical out --> E5 Optical in --> (Wirelessly) ZxR
 
Does the ZxR have its own integrated DAC ?
 
How can I use it with E5 to be able to game wirelessly on consoles and of course the PC ?

 

[ClieOS]

  How Can I pair the Sound Blaster EVO ZxR with the E5 wirelessly ? which scenario below works ?
 
...

 
You can't, as they are both designed as receiver and none of them is transmitter.

 

[zzffnn]

Can an owner kindly tell me E5's weight? I am guessing it is lighter than 200 gram? Also does its plastic case heat up less than a typical portable amp (say Fiio E12 or E18), when using AptX mode (without USB/charging connection)? Thank you so much.

 

[Kodhifi]

It's about the same weight as my Galaxy S4. The finish looks like brushed aluminum not plastic. The bottom is a soft plasticized rubber so it won't scuff or scratch your phone. It can get a little warm when you're playing loudly but not too hot. It's larger than a Fiio E17, wider and about twice as thick. It's about the thickness and size of a pack of cigarettes but slightly wider because of the < and > sides. I leave it plugged into USB nearly all the time and it doesn't really get hot. Heat depends more upon how loud you're playing your cans. It gets much warmer when driving 2 sets of phones at once.

 

[zzffnn]

^ Thank you very much Kodhifi. Since S4 weights 130 grams (4.59 oz), I take that E5 also weights bout 130 grams. I read somewhere that E5 is mostly hard plastic, which I would like actually for a portable amp (as it would be light). I could be wrong.

I was asking about heat production, because I often wear thin board shorts when I take along a portable amp in my pocket. An overtly warm amp might be uncomfortable to wear in our mostlly hot weather.

 

[Kodhifi]

As far as amps go it's not too warm. My Galazy gets hotter than that browsing the web. If you get a case of hot thighs from any electronics you can easily resolve that with a little stick on foam. For instance you could use a stick on foam sheet, cut to size, to cover the top of the E5 and that should prevent any unwanted heat regardless of how warm the amp gets.

 

[ClieOS]

165g, to be precise.