[shigzeo]

i have been reading the same phorum at iaudio and have not found it to be at all similar music. also, considering it is the iaduio phorum, it is quite suspect to finding faults with a player.

my headphones: dt770 - some bass smear
atrio m5 - smears
denon c700 - smears quite a bit.

with the ipod touch there is no smearing and a much larger soundstage with trance. however, the point in favour of the d2 is that is is more focused. however, it is no trance player.

still, those tests are not done to show bass roll off or loss of detail, merely how well the current holds up with load for a specific level. i would really like to see some sqaure wave tests done on the cowon d2 if possible. if i had windows i would do it right now. i don't have it however and i don't know of what app i can use to test it in osx.

my observations only held true with bassy earphones. essentially, it cannot handle my earphones with my music: man with no name, paul van dyk, eddy watchman king, arman van buuren state of trance, chicane, ATB, paul okenfold dj tiesto etc. any trance i throw at it with those headphones, things seem out of control.

i did not notice this with my dt880 nor my former er4s. um2 did also exhibit bass smear, but more of a slow of the bass rather than proper smear.

as i have stated, i do not use eq settings as they hurt my ears.

the size is great, just a little fat and assuming that 24-33 hours of battery life is not bad (it isn't) i find it great. firmware 2.51 is not crashing for me, but every other one has had heaps of trouble.

anyway, i've read your posts on the iaudio phorum as well, quite an interesting read. again, it has lovely distortion free effects if you like them.

 

[wader]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sigsegv0x0B /img/forum/go_quote.gif Or just show us how well can a D2 do what people claim it does well but provide no backup for. DRIVE A PAIR OF HEADPHONES.

Your argument keeps mutating, I feel. It's like quicksand. What are you attempting to measure? Power? Dynamic range characteristics? Noise? Which headphone is best? Which headphone is worst?

Each phone yields a different graph.

My PX100s gave a neat mid-bass hump to the D2 that the shipped buds couldn't touch, for example (even using a horrendous soundcard for the RMAA test). This type of variability per phone (among other things) will be the same for any DAP tested.

There's other graphs at the site showing it driving different phones, too - as I mentioned. I could post further references here, but figured my direct information shared would lead you to search, unless you're just spouting nonsense from afar. I mean, relying on graphs for full interpretation is rather limiting and means little. The last defense for extreme claims, maybe?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sigsegv0x0B /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well I have no idea what it faults are but to this day I have no idea if the Cowon D2 is a useful as an audio player because I haven't seen how well it can drive headphones....

Funny, I've heard how well it can drive phones. Seeing has been an afterthought.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sigsegv0x0B /img/forum/go_quote.gif I am not saying D2 is a bad player, I am however saying I have seen nothing to suggest it is a good audio player. And certainly a lot of ppl feel emotional about their new toy also... which means it's a cute device that ppl like.

I simply like people to substantiate their claims in an open fashion. This isn't a competition - e.g., I heard the Sony in a local Circuit City and was impressed with the thick sound from default settings. It's a sweet spot lots of folks can like, I'm sure. High end wasn't something to write home about for me and there was unexpected colouring in the mids as I fiddled with the EQ a bit, but it was a high quality sound, overall.

Back to this thread, some of your claims about the D2 SQ are unique and somewhat extraordinary, IMHO. At first, I figured it was just the variability of elements in your listening scenario, personal preferences, etc. EDIT: you just provided some details above - thanks. Something to go back and try to recreate or simulate.

- wader

 

[sigsegv0x0B]

Your argument keeps mutating, I feel. It's like quicksand. What are you attempting to measure? Power? Dynamic range characteristics? Noise? Which headphone is best? Which headphone is worst?

Each phone yields a different graph.

Or Cowon cheats like Sony, cept their AMP can't back it up unlike Sony's.

However the explanation is prolly simpler.
It looks like you either had EQ going or some DSP effect that increases the BASS going. Make sure all settings are flat and retest it.

Quote:

My PX100s gave a neat mid-bass hump to the D2 that the shipped buds couldn't touch, for example (even using a horrendous soundcard for the RMAA test). This type of variability per phone (among other things) will be the same for any DAP tested.

No it will not. At least on any dap that isn't junk. At most with not push pull amps you can get roll off earlier or later, cross talk can be change, IMD will change. But freq response should stay flat, or roll off a little. Not JUMP. If it is something is affecting it.... Usually DSP.

Quote:

There's other graphs at the site showing it driving different phones, too - as I mentioned. I could post further references here, but figured my direct information shared would lead you to search, unless you're just spouting nonsense from afar. I mean, relying on graphs for full interpretation is rather limiting and means little. The last defense for extreme claims, maybe?

If you have more tests of ppl doing loaded tests on the D2 please show.

Here is a Nano for example (it's at least as good as the D2):
RightMark Audio Analyzer test: comparison

Quote:

Funny, I've heard how well it can drive phones. Seeing has been an afterthought.

No you have heard what you LIKE or got used to. How it can drive phones can be tested via equipment only.

Quote:

I simply like people to substantiate their claims in an open fashion. This isn't a competition - e.g., I heard the Sony in a local Circuit City and was impressed with the thick sound from default settings. It's a sweet spot lots of folks can like, I'm sure. High end wasn't something to write home about for me and there was unexpected colouring in the mids as I fiddled with the EQ a bit, but it was a high quality sound, overall.

My NWZ-S616F sounds very detailed to me. Not harsh or tinny which is what I find a problem with other players especially ones that roll off bass. Although with 32ohm headphones it seems D2 suffer any significant roll off.

 

[wader]

Quote:

Originally Posted by shigzeo /img/forum/go_quote.gif . . . my observations only held true with bassy earphones. essentially, it cannot handle my earphones with my music: man with no name, paul van dyk, eddy watchman king, arman van buuren state of trance, chicane, ATB, paul okenfold dj tiesto etc. any trance i throw at it with those headphones, things seem out of control. i did not notice this with my dt880 nor my former er4s. um2 did also exhibit bass smear, but more of a slow of the bass rather than proper smear. . .

OK, great - I have UM2s, as well.

I don't have much trance, more in the techno/electronica-influenced sounds.

So, I tested with Paul Okenfeld ("Starry Eyed Surprise", etc.), Curve ("Chinese Burn 2", etc.), Chemical Brothers ("Setting Sun", etc.), Aphex Twin ("Bucephalus Bouncing Ball", etc.) and others.

Listened at flat EQ and effects - rather uncompromising to the originals, so decided to let the EQ and effects roam for fun, caring little for side-effects (on purpose). Ended up with BBE = 1, shifting the first three EQ bars up 1 or two frequency ranges each and creating a minor U-curve that barely favored the upper end.

Threw Mach3Bass up to 2 once in awhile for the heck of it.

The big bass splashes sound fully grounded to the floor of each piece, with bass guitar-like sounds in layers above, as apparently desired by each work. There's presence without pain when things whomp, but I feel the virtual vibration in my head when the lows hit. And, I can hear what they represent easily, no matter how wide they were mixed in as - Setting Sun is just an unrelenting piece, but the detail and whomping sandwich a neat piece that doesn't kill my ears, yet keeps the original intention I hear from speakers. At least, for me. This is not an ideal EQ/effect mix, but I found it in about 20 seconds and it works well for each of these pieces, IMHO.

On some apparent loops, I'm hearing actual bass strings being pulled - or, at least the simulation of such textures. But, the bass frequencies come across on the bottom or a little higher, as apparently intended. Just as easily, I could let it all blend, but the D2 is unrelenting and doesn't forget the detail where it exists in each piece.

So, I suppose this "bleeding" of the bass condition is something I cannot easily understand, even with intentionally slapdash EQ-ing.

- wader

 

[wader]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sigsegv0x0B /img/forum/go_quote.gif It looks like you either had EQ going or some DSP effect that increases the BASS going. Make sure all settings are flat and retest it.

I make plenty of mistakes, but those tests were done flat onboard. I only use effects when the D2 is being amped offboard, but not in this test. Check out other tests of Sony phones and such for their own characteristics, though. I plan on retesting soon with a different soundcard, though - my old soundcard was *****, but convenient to get a quick test out. Relatively speaking, it's seemingly correct. Absolute values? I actually claimed in the post you couldn't rely on such.

And, I used the same settings for the COWON buds, too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sigsegv0x0B /img/forum/go_quote.gif No it will not. At least on any dap that isn't junk. At most with not push pull amps you can get roll off earlier or later, cross talk can be change, IMD will change. But freq response should stay flat, or roll off a little. Not JUMP. If it is something is affecting it.... Usually DSP.

My future tests should be interesting, then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sigsegv0x0B /img/forum/go_quote.gif Here is a Nano for example (it's at least as good as the D2): RightMark Audio Analyzer test: comparison

I don't know - I've heard Nanos. Plenty of them. I have a tough time putting their SQ up to a D2 and also don't know many who would say similarly. My nano-owning Uncle dropped it for his own D2 purchase after he heard mine, for small example. I found the Nano a bit tinny in the highs (sometimes oddly noisy) with not much mid-presence and a less complex bottom end. EQ was not as flexible, for me. Certainly, it was competent - but, if I wanted a small and more-than-competent player, I might go for a U3 or similar.

Quote:

No you have heard what you LIKE or got used to. How it can drive phones can be tested via equipment only.

You just completely lost me. Listening is the experience that matters - data certainly helps explain what you might be hearing, but it can only predict the experience when something highly obvious or extreme is apparent, IMHO. It can't define your actual listening experience, partially because it only offers slices of a data perspective at a time.

I've seen varying opinions on similar listening setups which happened to have been graphed, with complete understanding that personal preferences will also colour what we each find strong or weak in a listening experience. That makes plenty of logical sense to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sigsegv0x0B /img/forum/go_quote.gif My NWZ-S616F sounds very detailed to me. Not harsh or tinny which is what I find a problem with other players especially ones that roll off bass. Although with 32ohm headphones it seems D2 suffer any significant roll off.

D2 is better rounded with 32 Ohm phones, sure - I tend to discourage use of 16 Ohm phones when asked.

- wader

 

[shigzeo]

well mate, i am glad you like your d2. i did not like it with um2, but i really don't like it with m5, dt770 and denon c700. obviously if i liked anything much about it, i would argue in favour of it as well. compared to the touch, i find it steps below. cheers.

if i were in your part of the world, id bring some trance to show you with my headphones. the um2 has the slight advantage of control over its dynammic siblings though i prefer them heaps to it. my fav armature based phone was the er4s but... that was even more of a killer with the d2.

 

[wader]

Quote:

Originally Posted by shigzeo /img/forum/go_quote.gif well mate, i am glad you like your d2. i did not like it with um2, but i really don't like it with m5, dt770 and denon c700. obviously if i liked anything much about it, i would argue in favour of it as well. compared to the touch, i find it steps below. cheers.

Yeah, sorry I can't reconcile your reviews with my testing over here - no artificial mid boosts or loss of bass control (i.e., "bleeding") from my listening standpoint. Maybe others can offer their relevant opinions, though.

The iPod Touch is a nice piece of equipment for what it is, certainly. It's SQ is fine, just doesn't match what I would need in a listening experience for that kind of price. But, the WiFi feature is a cute grab in the pants - the reason I checked it out (with myriad other players, for their own advertised strengths) before deciding to buy a second D2.

- wader

 

[dman777]

I just bought a D2 and have had it for two weeks. I love the sound it has. With my Px100 headphones, the techno I lestion to sounds awsome. The instruments are very distinctive. The bass is full, powerfull, and is not muddy or distortive as some have said. Same goes with my hip hop also.

 

[jmageshazam]

I have read many opinions within thi thread that the d2 has slight bass roll, strong detail and emphasized highs. I have one in the mail. Should I buy pk3's to combat the bass roll off and detail.

thanks

 

[jmageshazam]

by the way, the sound sig of the pk3's is supposed to be similar o the pk2's but with slightly recessed mids, increased bass and less detail. Do think it would be a good match for the player? Anybody use a D2 with Yuin PK3's?

Thanks

 

[bubbagump]

Quote:

Originally Posted by shigzeo /img/forum/go_quote.gif i have been reading the same phorum at iaudio and have not found it to be at all similar music. also, considering it is the iaduio phorum, it is quite suspect to finding faults with a player. my headphones: dt770 - some bass smear atrio m5 - smears denon c700 - smears quite a bit. with the ipod touch there is no smearing and a much larger soundstage with trance. however, the point in favour of the d2 is that is is more focused. however, it is no trance player.

oh cool you tried the denon c700. Howd you like it overall? Are you amping with your cans? how did the c700 mids sound on the d2? what jeteffect setup do you use?

I like the same trance artists and use it as reference material. Right now the only setup I can bear until my c700s come is my pimeta->k501 and its great to my ears. granted this isn't a good setup to test the d2s ability to push 20-60hz detail, but in terms of midbass and upperbass detail I'm satisfied. reference tracks include a trance energy intro which pushes all over 20hz-16khz. mids and highs stand out, performing well. other reference tracks include tiesto's "just be" album as well as various PvD and asot. encodings are mp3 192+, flac and ogg.

If I could find a fault it would be that I can't get any of that bun-crushing bass hit (20-40hz stuff) like I can with my dual sub setup on the HT system, but then I don't have any cans that can make that stuff shine at the moment (my SR125s are padless atm)

I wen't back A and Bing on the aforementioned trance energy 2002 album between the d2 and my reference source, the oppo cdp using the same amp and flac encodings on the d2. I don't think my ears can even pick up any detail difference between the two. just a little less instrument spacing.

I have no complaints over here on this DAPs performance.

 

[darkninja67]

Voted Sony since I ordered an A818 last night. At least I am happy that it seems it is a good match for Ety ER4Ps.

 

[Ichinichi]

sony and i've owned both. i had the d2 and sold it three months into this hobby (may). SQ wise, my sony beats out the d2 as well as the iMod except on the noisefloor, but this may have to do with my earphones (denon's on the way).

 

[abitdeef]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ichinichi /img/forum/go_quote.gif sony and i've owned both. i had the d2 and sold it three months into this hobby (may). SQ wise, my sony beats out the d2 as well as the iMod except on the noisefloor, but this may have to do with my earphones (denon's on the way).

Which ones? denon AH C700s are freaking amazing, I can tell you they pair up great with the sony and excellent with the zune 80 also. I like them better than shure e500.

 

[neoufo51]

The Cowon is too lifeless sounding for my taste. The Sony is just a warm, enjoyable sounding player that goes well with a warm sounding headphone. The D2 may be feature-packed but an audio enthusiast who likes a warm sound and owns a D2 will enjoy its features while secretly coveting the A818's sound.