[vipervick]

Hi all,

Just trying to twist my thoughts around the best way to upgrade my computer's audio. I am currently running Windows 10 with Logitech Z-5500 plugged straight into the motherboard.

1. Get a sound card and plug the Z-5500's into that.
2. Get a USB DAC and run RCA to a stereo receiver and get 2 bookshelves and a sub.
3. Other options?

I already own a Schiit Audio Modi DAC and an Onkyo TX-NR 5007 that I can use. If 2.1, I'd need recommendations on a good near-field bookshelf. For a sub I will most likely go SVS under my desk, they are the king of bass...

 

[PurpleAngel]

Hi all,

Just trying to twist my thoughts around the best way to upgrade my computer's audio. I am currently running Windows 10 with Logitech Z-5500 plugged straight into the motherboard.
1. Get a sound card and plug the Z-5500's into that.
2. Get a USB DAC and run RCA to a stereo receiver and get 2 bookshelves and a sub.
3. Other options?
I already own a Schiit Audio Modi DAC and an Onkyo TX-NR 5007 that I can use. If 2.1, I'd need recommendations on a good near-field bookshelf. For a sub I will most likely go SVS under my desk, they are the king of bass...

Are you connecting to the Z5500 using analog connection or digital connection?
Does your on-board audio come with Dolby or DTS?
Budget?

 

[vipervick]

Are you connecting to the Z5500 using analog connection or digital connection?
Does your on-board audio come with Dolby or DTS?
Budget?

1. Analog. Green, Brown, and Black.
2. No idea, I built this computer in 2009.
3. Depends on price to performance ratio.

 

[Pharmaboy]

I've been on the desktop audio journey for the past decade or so. I'll admit this upfront: my bias in everything I tell you is purely sound quality (I'm a reformed audiophile who used to have big/amazing living room systems).

If sound quality matters to you, the only way that makes sense to get audio out of the computer is USB, not the soundcard. There are many reasons, but the big one is that any competent standalone DAC (and the Schitt Modi is certainly that) will outperform D-A-C conversion done by your soundcard. So you'd connect a USB cable to a USB output on your desktop & run it to the USB-in of the Modi.

Then what? Well, for now, I'll ignore your Logitech Z-5500 and proceed the way I would for my own tastes. I'm also inspired to a degree by your mention of an SVS sub--I have one and it's very good:

• The RCA outputs of your Modi presumably go to the Magni, which takes care of your headphone amplifications.
  
• For the next step, unless you want to get into powered monitors, you would just run the RCA outs from the Magni to one of the RCA inputs of your Onkyo, which obviously has its own volume control
  
• Then you would wire in a pair of speakers in the conventional speaker-wire manner.
  
• I suspect the Onkyo has bass management, such that it could separately output a L+R or mono signal (via RCA interconnet) to the SVS sub. I have the SB-1000 (single), which is more than enough for my small home office. Or you could bump it up the the SB-2000, also 12" but w/more power. It all depends on how high you crank it. My preference being musical fidelity, sealed subwoofer designs appeal more to me. But if you listen to a lot of movies w/sound effects, you may want to go in the ported direction...
  
  • If the Onkyo can output L+R RCA signal for the sub, you could run 2 subs, instead of 1.

As for passive speakers to go w/the Onkyo, there are so many options. This is where your budget comes in...speakers can cost $500, $5,000, or 10X that (not kidding). But a couple suggestions that jump to my mind are:

1. SVS makes its own highly regarded bookshelf speakers that would work well w/one or two of their subs.
2. ELAC is getting a ton of press for their bookshelf speakers:
   • Their entry-level 2-way is under $300/pr & getting lots of good reviews: https://www.crutchfield.com/p_970B6...&awnw=g&awcr=175692918139&awdv=c&awug=9004273
   • And their next model up is a 3-way costing $500: https://www.crutchfield.com/p_970B6...&awnw=g&awcr=175692918139&awdv=c&awug=9004273

However, it you want to go towards power monitors, that's a whole other conversation. I know a lot about those--they relieve you of need for amp & interconnects, but bring their own challenges. I'm about to upgrade my current powered speakers & did months of research on alternatives.

Hope all this makes sense & is helpful.

 

[PurpleAngel]

1. Analog. Green, Brown, and Black.
2. No idea, I built this computer in 2009.
3. Depends on price to performance ratio.

Get a low cost sound card, like the Asus Xonar DG ($25)or DGX ($45), it comes with DDL.
Just run optical from the Asus xonar DG/DGX to the Z-5500.
Or if you can get a good deal on an Asus Xonar D2X sound card, comes with nice DAC chips (run analog).
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ASUS-Xonar-...320155?hash=item2f0372d4db:g:hIcAAOSwIWVY~RiK

 

[ProtegeManiac]

2. Get a USB DAC and run RCA to a stereo receiver and get 2 bookshelves and a sub.

Or if you're not using your network HT receiver in a dedicated HT set up might as well use that. Use SPDIF or WLAN to get audio into it, it drives the speakers, and it has a DSP that has a subwoofer crossover and dedicated sub output.

 

[vipervick]

I've been on the desktop audio journey for the past decade or so. I'll admit this upfront: my bias in everything I tell you is purely sound quality (I'm a reformed audiophile who used to have big/amazing living room systems).

If sound quality matters to you, the only way that makes sense to get audio out of the computer is USB, not the soundcard. There are many reasons, but the big one is that any competent standalone DAC (and the Schitt Modi is certainly that) will outperform D-A-C conversion done by your soundcard. So you'd connect a USB cable to a USB output on your desktop & run it to the USB-in of the Modi.

Then what? Well, for now, I'll ignore your Logitech Z-5500 and proceed the way I would for my own tastes. I'm also inspired to a degree by your mention of an SVS sub--I have one and it's very good:

• The RCA outputs of your Modi presumably go to the Magni, which takes care of your headphone amplifications.
  
• For the next step, unless you want to get into powered monitors, you would just run the RCA outs from the Magni to one of the RCA inputs of your Onkyo, which obviously has its own volume control
  
• Then you would wire in a pair of speakers in the conventional speaker-wire manner.
  
• I suspect the Onkyo has bass management, such that it could separately output a L+R or mono signal (via RCA interconnet) to the SVS sub. I have the SB-1000 (single), which is more than enough for my small home office. Or you could bump it up the the SB-2000, also 12" but w/more power. It all depends on how high you crank it. My preference being musical fidelity, sealed subwoofer designs appeal more to me. But if you listen to a lot of movies w/sound effects, you may want to go in the ported direction...
  • If the Onkyo can output L+R RCA signal for the sub, you could run 2 subs, instead of 1.

As for passive speakers to go w/the Onkyo, there are so many options. This is where your budget comes in...speakers can cost $500, $5,000, or 10X that (not kidding). But a couple suggestions that jump to my mind are:

1. SVS makes its own highly regarded bookshelf speakers that would work well w/one or two of their subs.
2. ELAC is getting a ton of press for their bookshelf speakers:
   • Their entry-level 2-way is under $300/pr & getting lots of good reviews: https://www.crutchfield.com/p_970B6...&awnw=g&awcr=175692918139&awdv=c&awug=9004273
   • And their next model up is a 3-way costing $500: https://www.crutchfield.com/p_970B6...&awnw=g&awcr=175692918139&awdv=c&awug=9004273

However, it you want to go towards power monitors, that's a whole other conversation. I know a lot about those--they relieve you of need for amp & interconnects, but bring their own challenges. I'm about to upgrade my current powered speakers & did months of research on alternatives.

Hope all this makes sense & is helpful.

Indeed, SVS is awesome. I have a PC-13 Ultra in my home theater. I'd most likely get the SB-1000 since the office is small and all the speakers are so close.

I'm think of just using what I have already. So, the Onkyo is a flagship AVR and has more than enough power and outputs. It sounded great in my HT, but I upgraded to UHD components.

For speakers, the only problem I see is size. That may be a limiting factor. My office is smaller and I share it with my wife. I'd take pics but it's a disaster at the moment. The Logitech speakers are small and fit well on my desk. The bookshelves I'd love to get are the SVS Ultras, but they'd take up most of my desk. That, and the fact they are $500 a piece. For a little less I could get the Aperion Verus II Grand bookshelves. I use the Intimus 6T's in my HT.

 

[Pharmaboy]

PC-13 Ultra? Damn, I'd love to have that. Simply no room in the home(ly) office.

The SB-1000 is very compact, the smallest 12" sub I've ever seen. It's also very solid sonically...has no room equalization software, smartphone apps, etc.--you get on your hands and knees and adjust it 'til it sounds good (OK by me!). FYI, I'm feeding signal to my powered speakers (Swan M200 MkIII's) from the high-pass RCA output pair of the SB-1000, and it sounds far better than it has any right to...the crossover in question must be simple/inexpensive, but sounds good. I have an external crossover that I plan to insert in the system (Marchand XM66 w/variable crossover point)...but I don't feel pressure to do so (which I would if that high-pass output sounded bad).

Re form factor of speakers, it sounds like you're in a difficult place:

• To really "up your game" sonically, you need to upgrade to classic bookshelf speakers that will work well w/your Onkyo and (future) SVS SB-1000
• Most really small speakers don't sound very good because most are inexpensive "computer" speakers
• By contrast, many normal-size 2-way bookshelf speakers (~6" woofer + tweeter) sound very good indeed; even relatively inexpensive ones get terrific reviews.
• How to reconcile...?

You might do well to focus on coincident-driver designs, which tend to be somewhat smaller, particularly in the height dimension (classic example is the KEF LS50 non-powered speaker).

 

[Puppysmith]

Pi-Dac Pro HAT/DAC I SABRE V3 0, Raspberry Pi3, RuneAudio player - headphones - Pi-DigiAmp+ if you are using external speakers. Cheap solution to good sound.

https://goo.gl/QInt1Z

 

[JoshuaTheKvlt]

There's always the option of picking up an audio interface, but probably not necessary if you can find a DAC to do the same thing.

 

[fillswitch]

I've been on the desktop audio journey for the past decade or so. I'll admit this upfront: my bias in everything I tell you is purely sound quality (I'm a reformed audiophile who used to have big/amazing living room systems).

If sound quality matters to you, the only way that makes sense to get audio out of the computer is USB, not the soundcard. There are many reasons, but the big one is that any competent standalone DAC (and the Schitt Modi is certainly that) will outperform D-A-C conversion done by your soundcard. So you'd connect a USB cable to a USB output on your desktop & run it to the USB-in of the Modi.

Then what? Well, for now, I'll ignore your Logitech Z-5500 and proceed the way I would for my own tastes. I'm also inspired to a degree by your mention of an SVS sub--I have one and it's very good:

• The RCA outputs of your Modi presumably go to the Magni, which takes care of your headphone amplifications.
  
• For the next step, unless you want to get into powered monitors, you would just run the RCA outs from the Magni to one of the RCA inputs of your Onkyo, which obviously has its own volume control
  
• Then you would wire in a pair of speakers in the conventional speaker-wire manner.
  
• I suspect the Onkyo has bass management, such that it could separately output a L+R or mono signal (via RCA interconnet) to the SVS sub. I have the SB-1000 (single), which is more than enough for my small home office. Or you could bump it up the the SB-2000, also 12" but w/more power. It all depends on how high you crank it. My preference being musical fidelity, sealed subwoofer designs appeal more to me. But if you listen to a lot of movies w/sound effects, you may want to go in the ported direction...
  • If the Onkyo can output L+R RCA signal for the sub, you could run 2 subs, instead of 1.

As for passive speakers to go w/the Onkyo, there are so many options. This is where your budget comes in...speakers can cost $500, $5,000, or 10X that (not kidding). But a couple suggestions that jump to my mind are:

1. SVS makes its own highly regarded bookshelf speakers that would work well w/one or two of their subs.
2. ELAC is getting a ton of press for their bookshelf speakers:
   • Their entry-level 2-way is under $300/pr & getting lots of good reviews: https://www.crutchfield.com/p_970B6...&awnw=g&awcr=175692918139&awdv=c&awug=9004273
   • And their next model up is a 3-way costing $500: https://www.crutchfield.com/p_970B6...&awnw=g&awcr=175692918139&awdv=c&awug=9004273

However, it you want to go towards power monitors, that's a whole other conversation. I know a lot about those--they relieve you of need for amp & interconnects, but bring their own challenges. I'm about to upgrade my current powered speakers & did months of research on alternatives.

Hope all this makes sense & is helpful.

@Pharmaboy - I'm curious what you would prefer; powered + DAC or passive + DAC + amp? I'm in the same boat as OP and I'm trying to decide powered or not.

 

[Pharmaboy]

My preference 100% is a pair of powered monitors/speakers fed by RCA outputs of a DAC. My reasons may differ from others--mainly, it's that I'm maxxed out for desktop space, to an extreme. I have so many components in a limited space, that I've built 2 table/stands to allow vertical stacking of components w/out having them actually rest on each other. For example, 2 of my 3 routers are underneath a 10" stand, on which sits a Marchand external crossover (large), and on top of that is an Aphex 124A unbalanced-to-balanced (and b-to-u) converter. There's just no room for even a modest sized amp to run passives speakers. Wish there was--there are many very attractive candidates.

Also, I've used powered speakers for 10+ years in home office w/pretty good results. After 10+ years listening to crappy "computer speakers" (no DAC, just soundcard as source), I wised up ~2006 and got a then SOTA system: Stello DAC + NHT M-00 powered speakers w/NHT S-00 powered sub. That was a huge step up, and yet...the Stello through those speakers was fairly bright to my ears. I messed around w/various tweaks (Margoles Audio "Digital Lens" ... iFi iTube line-stage), but finally bagged just upgraded the DAC to something that sounded better to me (Peachtree Audio iTx). Then I upgraded the speakers to Swan M200 MKIII's; then got an R2R DAC, which transformed the whole "digital experience" for me (Audio GD NOS 19). And finally, in next 2 weeks Ill replace the Swans w/a pair of Yamaha HS7 powered monitors.

Which raises a critical/related point: if you try to find high-quality, "audiophile" powered speakers, there are just a few names (KEF; Paradigm; Swan), and 99% of what you'll see are relatively small (5" woofer), modestly powered speakers. Some of these, like the KEFs, are said to sound very good (the Swans are quite good IMO)--but I want a larger woofer (6-7") for better upper bass/lower midrange (the SVS handles everything below 80 Hz).

...which leaves the really vast, perplexing array of powered studio monitors. There are countless choices, all different designs, sizes & power ratings. The problem w/powered monitors isn't lack of choice--it's trying to figure out which ones might actually sound good for music listening--which is beside the point of studio monitors' primary design objective: "flat," uncolored audio reproduction permitting forensic/clinical sonic judgements used in building of audio "mixes" (music pre-production). Because "pretty sound" is of near-zero concern for designers & builders of studio monitors, and because 99% of the "user comments" are from studio pros, not music lovers/audiophiles--it has taken me months of research to identify studio monitors that might actually sound good. It's all guesswork; I'll find out if my bet pays off when the Yamaha's (actually, the ZenPro modded HS7's) arrive and finish burning in.

The above paragraph is an extremely truncated explanation of a rather deep & ongoing debate about "good sound" vs "accurate sound" in studio gear. There remains a pretty wide gulf between "audiophile equipment" (and users) and "studio equipment" (and users), though you can find all sorts of bridges/connections between these camps if you look hard enough.

(sorry for long answer to short question)

PS: Due to space limitations, and in some cases, cost concerns, I'm unable to purchase the powered studio monitors I really dream of (ATC SCM20ASL; Hedd Audio Type 07; Quested MKIII S8R; a few others). It's just not a perfect world, sad to say...

 

[fillswitch]

My preference 100% is a pair of powered monitors/speakers fed by RCA outputs of a DAC. My reasons may differ from others--mainly, it's that I'm maxxed out for desktop space, to an extreme. I have so many components in a limited space, that I've built 2 table/stands to allow vertical stacking of components w/out having them actually rest on each other. For example, 2 of my 3 routers are underneath a 10" stand, on which sits a Marchand external crossover (large), and on top of that is an Aphex 124A unbalanced-to-balanced (and b-to-u) converter. There's just no room for even a modest sized amp to run passives speakers. Wish there was--there are many very attractive candidates.

Also, I've used powered speakers for 10+ years in home office w/pretty good results. After 10+ years listening to crappy "computer speakers" (no DAC, just soundcard as source), I wised up ~2006 and got a then SOTA system: Stello DAC + NHT M-00 powered speakers w/NHT S-00 powered sub. That was a huge step up, and yet...the Stello through those speakers was fairly bright to my ears. I messed around w/various tweaks (Margoles Audio "Digital Lens" ... iFi iTube line-stage), but finally bagged just upgraded the DAC to something that sounded better to me (Peachtree Audio iTx). Then I upgraded the speakers to Swan M200 MKIII's; then got an R2R DAC, which transformed the whole "digital experience" for me (Audio GD NOS 19). And finally, in next 2 weeks Ill replace the Swans w/a pair of Yamaha HS7 powered monitors.

Which raises a critical/related point: if you try to find high-quality, "audiophile" powered speakers, there are just a few names (KEF; Paradigm; Swan), and 99% of what you'll see are relatively small (5" woofer), modestly powered speakers. Some of these, like the KEFs, are said to sound very good (the Swans are quite good IMO)--but I want a larger woofer (6-7") for better upper bass/lower midrange (the SVS handles everything below 80 Hz).

...which leaves the really vast, perplexing array of powered studio monitors. There are countless choices, all different designs, sizes & power ratings. The problem w/powered monitors isn't lack of choice--it's trying to figure out which ones might actually sound good for music listening--which is beside the point of studio monitors' primary design objective: "flat," uncolored audio reproduction permitting forensic/clinical sonic judgements used in building of audio "mixes" (music pre-production). Because "pretty sound" is of near-zero concern for designers & builders of studio monitors, and because 99% of the "user comments" are from studio pros, not music lovers/audiophiles--it has taken me months of research to identify studio monitors that might actually sound good. It's all guesswork; I'll find out if my bet pays off when the Yamaha's (actually, the ZenPro modded HS7's) arrive and finish burning in.

The above paragraph is an extremely truncated explanation of a rather deep & ongoing debate about "good sound" vs "accurate sound" in studio gear. There remains a pretty wide gulf between "audiophile equipment" (and users) and "studio equipment" (and users), though you can find all sorts of bridges/connections between these camps if you look hard enough.

(sorry for long answer to short question)

PS: Due to space limitations, and in some cases, cost concerns, I'm unable to purchase the powered studio monitors I really dream of (ATC SCM20ASL; Hedd Audio Type 07; Quested MKIII S8R; a few others). It's just not a perfect world, sad to say...

While lengthy, this was very useful. I could also see myself going down a DAC + powered route because of space limitations too. Also good to know of good powered brands. Thanks for your insight!

 

[theveterans]

My preference 100% is a pair of powered monitors/speakers fed by RCA outputs of a DAC. My reasons may differ from others--mainly, it's that I'm maxxed out for desktop space, to an extreme. I have so many components in a limited space, that I've built 2 table/stands to allow vertical stacking of components w/out having them actually rest on each other. For example, 2 of my 3 routers are underneath a 10" stand, on which sits a Marchand external crossover (large), and on top of that is an Aphex 124A unbalanced-to-balanced (and b-to-u) converter. There's just no room for even a modest sized amp to run passives speakers. Wish there was--there are many very attractive candidates.

Also, I've used powered speakers for 10+ years in home office w/pretty good results. After 10+ years listening to crappy "computer speakers" (no DAC, just soundcard as source), I wised up ~2006 and got a then SOTA system: Stello DAC + NHT M-00 powered speakers w/NHT S-00 powered sub. That was a huge step up, and yet...the Stello through those speakers was fairly bright to my ears. I messed around w/various tweaks (Margoles Audio "Digital Lens" ... iFi iTube line-stage), but finally bagged just upgraded the DAC to something that sounded better to me (Peachtree Audio iTx). Then I upgraded the speakers to Swan M200 MKIII's; then got an R2R DAC, which transformed the whole "digital experience" for me (Audio GD NOS 19). And finally, in next 2 weeks Ill replace the Swans w/a pair of Yamaha HS7 powered monitors.

Which raises a critical/related point: if you try to find high-quality, "audiophile" powered speakers, there are just a few names (KEF; Paradigm; Swan), and 99% of what you'll see are relatively small (5" woofer), modestly powered speakers. Some of these, like the KEFs, are said to sound very good (the Swans are quite good IMO)--but I want a larger woofer (6-7") for better upper bass/lower midrange (the SVS handles everything below 80 Hz).

...which leaves the really vast, perplexing array of powered studio monitors. There are countless choices, all different designs, sizes & power ratings. The problem w/powered monitors isn't lack of choice--it's trying to figure out which ones might actually sound good for music listening--which is beside the point of studio monitors' primary design objective: "flat," uncolored audio reproduction permitting forensic/clinical sonic judgements used in building of audio "mixes" (music pre-production). Because "pretty sound" is of near-zero concern for designers & builders of studio monitors, and because 99% of the "user comments" are from studio pros, not music lovers/audiophiles--it has taken me months of research to identify studio monitors that might actually sound good. It's all guesswork; I'll find out if my bet pays off when the Yamaha's (actually, the ZenPro modded HS7's) arrive and finish burning in.

The above paragraph is an extremely truncated explanation of a rather deep & ongoing debate about "good sound" vs "accurate sound" in studio gear. There remains a pretty wide gulf between "audiophile equipment" (and users) and "studio equipment" (and users), though you can find all sorts of bridges/connections between these camps if you look hard enough.

(sorry for long answer to short question)

PS: Due to space limitations, and in some cases, cost concerns, I'm unable to purchase the powered studio monitors I really dream of (ATC SCM20ASL; Hedd Audio Type 07; Quested MKIII S8R; a few others). It's just not a perfect world, sad to say...

Accurate sound and good sound don't have to be separate. My stock HS7s while considered to be accurate enough to mix tracks, sound great and gives as much enjoyment as those audiophile endorsed speakers.
As for 6-7" woofers for upper bass/lower midrange, even a 3" woofer will give the same effect. The reason to go 6.5" or larger woofer is for that lower than 40Hz accurate bass response.

 

[Pharmaboy]

Accurate sound and good sound don't have to be separate. My stock HS7s while considered to be accurate enough to mix tracks, sound great and gives as much enjoyment as those audiophile endorsed speakers.
As for 6-7" woofers for upper bass/lower midrange, even a 3" woofer will give the same effect. The reason to go 6.5" or larger woofer is for that lower than 40Hz accurate bass response.

Very interesting to read that you use the HS7's for music enjoyment. The primary reasons I'm getting these are:

1. They fit on my desktop
2. And a significant minority of the 100s of user comments I read for the HS7's & HS8's were either from music listeners, not professionals--or music pros who also used them regular listening. I found more of that for the Yamahas than most other monitors--which may be happening because anyone who looks for affordable powered speakers of quality, and who goes outside "audiophile" names, will immediately run into Yamaha monitors.

Not sure I agree w/your comment about larger vs smaller woofers. I don't think it's quite so simple. It's certainly true that a smaller woofer (say, 4") that has a larger magnet & has been selected/optimized for the intended range (in a 2-way, let's say from 2 kH down to -6 dB roll-off point) will acquit itself quite well until the volume is cranked. Then things tend to fall apart. Larger woofers (again, carefully selected/optimized for intended range) will go considerably louder w/out breaking up, "pumping," etc.

I also hear a subtle/subjective difference in the same frequency range coming off a small woofer vs a large one. This has been described as the woofer's relative ability to "move air." It may be involve other psycho-acoustic or structural aspect of the monitor's design, crossover, case, etc. But it's something I generally can hear.

Not all 6.5" woofers (or monitors that use them) are created equal, that's for sure...design is a major factor in sound output. For example, when I first started out in audio, I had 3-way speakers w/12" woofers (several inexpensive brands before I wised up)...those woofers crossed over @200-300 Hz. Their bass was loud, muddy, indistinct. Later on, I heard 12" woofers in subs--the ultimate in optimized use for a 12" woofer, w/huge magnets, constrained upper frequencies, bracing, etc. The bass from those 12" woofers was astounding, deep impact & timbral fidelity.