[Nostoi]

My 250mW @16Ω WM1Z could handle the 300Ω Sennheiser HD820 without any issues, even on low gain (which is like 60mW?!?)

My TA-ZH1ES (1200mW @32Ω) was loud enough to make me deaf with them.

I don't understand why some Headphones need so much power, really. Im starting to think that they just built gigantic resistors inside them because people then think they will sound better.

My MDR-Z1R does have 64Ω and can be driven by a smartphone with its gigantic 70mm Drivers and the worlds biggest magnet(!)

What is wrong with the overear headphone world?

You may listen at a lower volume than me, or have different requirements, because when I had the WM1Z/A, I found it good for IEMs only. Driving anything more than the Audio-Technica WP900 without a portable amp, the results were fairly lifeless (especially the MDR-Z7M2, which sounded especially bad for some reason).

But it's true, what brings a headphone to life is dependent on many things, not just power output.

 

[Vamp898]

You may listen at a lower volume than me, or have different requirements, because when I had the WM1Z/A, I found it good for IEMs only. Driving anything more than the Audio-Technica WP900 without a portable amp, the results were fairly lifeless (especially the MDR-Z7M2, which sounded especially bad for some reason).

But it's true, what brings a headphone to life is dependent on many things, not just power output.

The MDR-Z7M2 is a pretty lifeless headphone to begin with^^

But about listening volume, im not sure.

When i go to full volume on low gain with the MDR-Z1R (which needs more power than the MDR-Z7M2) i feel pain in my ear and it is so loud, that i can no longer wear them, not even for a short time. Its just loud, like really loud. So loud that my smartphone can no longer measure it and clips when i try to check the volume with noise meter.

The headphone is then loud enough, that i could just place it on the table and use it like a speaker to listen to it.

I really hope that you don't listen to music at such volumes.

 

[Nostoi]

The MDR-Z7M2 is a pretty lifeless headphone to begin with^^

But about listening volume, im not sure.

When i go to full volume on low gain with the MDR-Z1R (which needs more power than the MDR-Z7M2) i feel pain in my ear and it is so loud, that i can no longer wear them, not even for a short time. Its just loud, like really loud. So loud that my smartphone can no longer measure it and clips when i try to check the volume with noise meter.

The headphone is then loud enough, that i could just place it on the table and use it like a speaker to listen to it.

I really hope that you don't listen to music at such volumes.

I don't think I listen excessively high, but I'm aware when a source is doing justice to a pair of headphones; that is, when the dynamics are flat and when the technical abilities of the headphone aren't fully articulate. I think headroom is certainly important here (my sense is that if one needs to go beyond 75% on the volume, then it's time for another source). So, my point is simply that "loudness" is only one part of the formula.

Anyway, this is all rather off topic. Hope to demo/trial/buy the M17 soon!

 

[uckexk]

My 250mW @16Ω WM1Z could handle the 300Ω Sennheiser HD820 without any issues, even on low gain (which is like 60mW?!?)

My TA-ZH1ES (1200mW @32Ω) was loud enough to make me deaf with them.

I don't understand why some Headphones need so much power, really. Im starting to think that they just built gigantic resistors inside them because people then think they will sound better.

My MDR-Z1R does have 64Ω and can be driven by a smartphone with its gigantic 70mm Drivers and the worlds biggest magnet(!)

What is wrong with the overear headphone world?

(Please point out if I make any error in my statement below, as I'm still learning some technical aspects)

The headphones you listed are not hard to drive, I fully agree modern DAPs should have no problem driving them.

But harder to drive headphones do exist, most are inefficient planars. For example DCA Stealth is measured at 83dB/mW, which is 20dB/mW less than HD820, so roughly ~100x times more difficult to drive.

Sometimes amps can make headphones sound loud enough but "flat". I can think of two reasons. First we perceive loudness as average SPL, not the peaks. It's not uncommon for average and peak SPL to differ by more than 20dB, so if the amp can't provide enough power for the peaks, which by this example is 100x more power than the average, music will sound clipped. The second reason is headphone frequency response is not flat, so different frequencies can differ by 10dB. If we compound the two factors we need to have 30dB headroom, that's ~1000x in power fluctuation. If say I listen to the Stealth at an average 80 dB SPL, then the peaks would require roughly 500mW, so I will most certainly hear clipping when using WM1Z.

Another thing to note is maximum output power is only achievable at optimal output impedance, which varies from amps to amps. The listed maximum output impedance probably can't be achieved when the headphone impedance deviates from the optimal output impedance of the amp, due to either voltage or current limit.

 

[qua2k]

Lost me at Android... looks pretty and shiny though

 

[Duncan]

Lost me at Android... looks pretty and shiny though

What would you want it to be, where it could still support third party software / streaming?

 

[Modwright01]

I think this beast can drive the HE6 haha

 

[Vamp898]

Lost me at Android... looks pretty and shiny though

What's wrong with Android?

 

[Vamp898]

(Please point out if I make any error in my statement below, as I'm still learning some technical aspects)

The headphones you listed are not hard to drive, I fully agree modern DAPs should have no problem driving them.

But harder to drive headphones do exist, most are inefficient planars. For example DCA Stealth is measured at 83dB/mW, which is 20dB/mW less than HD820, so roughly ~100x times more difficult to drive.

Sometimes amps can make headphones sound loud enough but "flat". I can think of two reasons. First we perceive loudness as average SPL, not the peaks. It's not uncommon for average and peak SPL to differ by more than 20dB, so if the amp can't provide enough power for the peaks, which by this example is 100x more power than the average, music will sound clipped. The second reason is headphone frequency response is not flat, so different frequencies can differ by 10dB. If we compound the two factors we need to have 30dB headroom, that's ~1000x in power fluctuation. If say I listen to the Stealth at an average 80 dB SPL, then the peaks would require roughly 500mW, so I will most certainly hear clipping when using WM1Z.

Another thing to note is maximum output power is only achievable at optimal output impedance, which varies from amps to amps. The listed maximum output impedance probably can't be achieved when the headphone impedance deviates from the optimal output impedance of the amp, due to either voltage or current limit.

Why do 83db/mw headphones exist? Who makes them and why?

No dynamic driver needs to have such an bad sensitivity.

 

[Vamp898]

I don't think I listen excessively high, but I'm aware when a source is doing justice to a pair of headphones; that is, when the dynamics are flat and when the technical abilities of the headphone aren't fully articulate. I think headroom is certainly important here (my sense is that if one needs to go beyond 75% on the volume, then it's time for another source). So, my point is simply that "loudness" is only one part of the formula.

Anyway, this is all rather off topic. Hope to demo/trial/buy the M17 soon!

The amp needs to be as good at 100% as it is at 70%.

At least with the Amps i tested so far and the Amp I own, that is the case.

Flat sound above 75% sounds like the amp is just not capable in delivering the power it is advertising. But that might explain why so many ChiFi Amps deliver 3000mW in Tiny boxes while Sony had to build a giant brick to be barely able to push out 1200mW

 

[DarginMahkum]

Why do 83db/mw headphones exist? Who makes them and why?

No dynamic driver needs to have such an bad sensitivity.

Stealth is planar magnetic.

https://musicalhead.de/2021/11/28/test-dan-clark-stealth/

 

[Nostoi]

The amp needs to be as good at 100% as it is at 70%.

At least with the Amps i tested so far and the Amp I own, that is the case.

Flat sound above 75% sounds like the amp is just not capable in delivering the power it is advertising. But that might explain why so many ChiFi Amps deliver 3000mW in Tiny boxes while Sony had to build a giant brick to be barely able to push out 1200mW

Quite, I agree. But in this particular case, I was talking about the R01 module from Cayin (although I don't remember why I was talking about it), which is sensitive to producing more noise because of its R2R architecture.

 

[Vamp898]

Stealth is planar magnetic.

https://musicalhead.de/2021/11/28/test-dan-clark-stealth/

Now all makes sense

 

[qua2k]

What's wrong with Android?

With it being Android, you are effectively limiting it's OS's upgradability in the future. Also, non-Android DAP's having lower EMI typically, so a cleaner sound. Software aside, this thing... like 95% of all of the other DAP's, are huge bricks. Portability.... hah, maybe in a backpack. I do like the sheer number of outputs and inputs, but again... huge. Also curious to see how hot it runs mobile if it comes with that huge fan dock.

What would you want it to be, where it could still support third party software / streaming?

True. With those two options, you are forced with Android unfortunately. I prefer my DAP without both.

 

[zen87192]

Also curious to see how hot it runs mobile if it comes with that huge fan dock.

I have been listening on a regular basis at two hour + stages via Mains/Battery and have found that the heat is not as much as I thought. It gets warm, certainly, but doesn't need the fan.... yet. I have the M17 on the Fan Holder as it’s a very convenient way to operate it, and if needs be, I can flick the fan switch on if required. Bere in mind that I have the M17 fitted in its supplied Case as I feel this will actually assist with the cooling due to its loose fitting to concentrate and circulate the air flow around the unit. I think Saturday will be the day I can dedicate to a constant few hours more where I will see what happens about the heat levels.