*Comparison and Review* Magni/Modi vs O2/ODAC

[tdockweiler]

Quote:

Probably because transparent is a word that's shamefully used too much on head-fi where nobody really knows what it means.  At least, if they do, I know I've seen it used to represent 100 different ideas.  At least it's not as bad as musical or dynamic.

 
Not as bad as "wire with gain". Who came up with that non-sense? Is that even possible? I wish.
 
I have no problem calling an amp/dac transparent as long as it doesn't screw with how a headphone is supposed to sound. I'm ok with some coloration for those that like it.
I wouldn't call something like the E9 transparent, but it's still fairly neutral. I could barely tell apart the HRT MSII and ODAC with that thing. Not even kidding. With the Micro and probably O2 it's easy.
 
Maybe it's really possible for a 1000% transparent amp to really sound "bad" with a bright headphone. You know..I always wondered that.
 
I honestly have always just hated amps that are only good with specific headphones. After I had that happen with my amp (not Magni) I had to encounter the same thing with my DAC.
 
I would always describe my SRH-940 as having a slight touch of warmth and it was probably coming from my old DAC. Doh. My DAC made it sound like a mix between a K701 and HD-598

 
BTW one thing I've noticed with "transparent" amps (or all amps?) is that they don't seem to like surge protectors that are MOV based. It seems to make them sound more muffled.
I'd love some genius here to explain that for me! Sounds like extra distortion or something. Probably impossible...

 

[KamijoIsMyHero]

Not as bad as "wire with gain". Who came up with that non-sense? Is that even possible? I wish.

I have no problem calling an amp/dac transparent as long as it doesn't screw with how a headphone is supposed to sound.

That's basically what we mean by wire with gain

 

[adydula]

The O2 is close to a straight wire with gain at least on my oscilloscope.....its adds nothing and takes away nothing...and after months of ab'ing I sold all the other stuff...and dont worry about the amp anymore.
 
To me any other amp contenders have to live up to the specs of the O2 period. Its a great base to start from.
 
Whether you think of voldermorts diatribe as propaganda or not it has made many other vendors stand up and look at what they are doing....to all of our benefit.
 
The magni/modi is for sure head and shoulders above the O2/ODAC as far as aesthetics....they really look very very nice....but I really dont care that much about looks etc
 
Its all about the sound and being as transparent and neurtral as possible.
 
The O2 does this very well.
 
Alex

 

[TMRaven]

Wire with gain is indeed a very nonsensical term.  I will not listen to anyone who as so much tries to defend it.

 

[uchihaitachi]

Wire with gain is indeed a very nonsensical term.  I will not listen to anyone who as so much tries to defend it.

Audio engineers have always used the term 'wire with gain' to describe what an amp should strive to do and an o2 is just that. It is a much better term IMO than agressive, bright, warm, tizzy.....

 

[TMRaven]

In what way is O2 just a wire with gain?  Using the term 'wire with gain' to describe what an amp should ideally be and using it to actually describe an amp are two entirely different things.  You can actually partake in conversation with terms such as aggressive, bright, warm and tizzy, but the term 'wire with gain' is a mere idea, there's nothing tangible about it.

 

[uchihaitachi]

In what way is O2 just a wire with gain?  Using the term 'wire with gain' to describe what an amp should ideally be and using it to actually describe an amp are two entirely different things.  You can actually partake in conversation with terms such as aggressive, bright, warm and tizzy, but the term 'wire with gain' is a mere idea, there's nothing tangible about it.

The O2 is exactly that a wire with gain. It does not distort, does not add any unwanted audible artifacts. All it seeks to do is amplify the signal without altering anything or adding in any coloration etc.... If I remember correctly even its designer referred to it as a wire with gain.

 

[uchihaitachi]

In fact it is also very tangible. Wire with gain means transparency i.e. The technical definition of the word so there are several crteria that the amp should meet in order to be audibly transparent.

 

[TMRaven]

The O2 does in fact distort-- sooner than the Magni as an extra bonus.  Feed it too powerful source a while running it on high gain and things will start measuring nasty and sound nasty as well.  Also, trying to vindicate a nonsensical term by using another nonsensical term is just ridiculous.
 
 
There are a lot of amps that measure near ideal with the very limited tool of measurements used.  They almost all have a completely flat FR and distortion far below the threshold of reasonable listening levels, yet you will hear differences in a lot of those amps that measure near identical.  Anyone with a lick of experience in amplification will tell you that O2 isn't the end-all for headphone amps.
 
 
Now then, if you could do me a solid and be so kind as to stop being a mindless tool of nwavguy's, I would like this topic to not repeat the history of many others that had to be closed because they were ransacked by people like you who have a proclivity for engaging in circular arguments about ideals.  I know I'm stopping right now because I know it's a lost cause talking to walls. 

 

[miceblue]

^ I concur. I like the O2 for its price, as I don't want to shell our more than $500 on an amp, but I don't think it's the end of all amps.

 

[uchihaitachi]

Quote:

The O2 does in fact distort-- sooner than the Magni as an extra bonus.  Feed it too powerful source a while running it on high gain and things will start measuring nasty and sound nasty as well.  Also, trying to vindicate a nonsensical term by using another nonsensical term is just ridiculous.
 
 
There are a lot of amps that measure near ideal with the very limited tool of measurements used.  They almost all have a completely flat FR and distortion far below the threshold of reasonable listening levels, yet you will hear differences in a lot of those amps that measure near identical.  Anyone with a lick of experience in amplification will tell you that O2 isn't the end-all for headphone amps.
 
 
Now then, if you could do me a solid and be so kind as to stop being a mindless tool of nwavguy's, I would like this topic to not repeat the history of many others that had to be closed because they were ransacked by people like you who have a proclivity for engaging in circular arguments about ideals.  I know I'm stopping right now because I know it's a lost cause talking to walls. 

Yes all amps distort, but under certain conditions they do fulfil the criteria of audible transparency ie a wire with gain. Congratulations on figuring out that amps do not perform as designed under overpowered sources or taken to the limit. Vindicating a nonsensical term by using another? Are you referring to audible transparency ie the criteria involving frequency response, distortion, noise and time based errors? Mmm nonsensical indeed...
 
Lots of amps that measure near ideal with very limited tools of measurements. So I assume you trust your ears over professional measuring equipment. Obviously under certain conditions which you have mentioned already the same measuring amps may end up sounding vastly different... Have you recently just figured this out?
Did I ever say the O2 is the end all for headphone amps? Have a look at my gear list and see for yourself that it is evidently not the case. Yes I do have an O2 which I purchased out of curiosity and did measurements myself and which I use under conditions which allow it to perform to its best ie like a wire with gain. 
 
Before you go around calling others a tool, I think you should realise that you are being the tool, ridiculing definitions you don't understand and putting words in other people's mouth. 

 

[adydula]

The O2 does not distort if you operate it in its design parameters.
 
Its really silly to operate a device beyond its parameters just to say it distorts.
 
Really?
 
A.

 

[xnor]

The biggest audible differences result from:
- sighted, biased comparisons
- not properly level-matching the amps
- channel imbalances
- different output impedance (=> differences in frequency response and again volume)
 
Only after those things are fixed/close enough it makes sense to compare things like distortion and noise.
 
Many problems are improved by using the lowest possible gain, which is simple to adjust with the O2.

 

[Makiah S]

Quote:

 
I think these minimal differences are very important and you should have mentioned them in your review. It actually would be useful to people.
I would never suggest the Schiit Stack to someone with a bright headphone such as the Grado SR-325is, K701 or DT-990. Not even the Q701!
 
I can't even tell by your review if it's both or just the Schiit Stack that you thought was best suited for neutral or warm headphones.
 
IMO the O2/ODAC is fine with bright headphones..the Modi/Magni...not so much. The O2/ODAC doesn't sound bright at all but some may disagree.
 
I think the differences are enough to make one hate a specific headphone with one of these setups but like it with the other. I'm sure some will disagree.
 
I think the review is a bit over-simplified. So much that it's really not useful to the average consumer.
 
Basically it's making the Magni/Modi out to seem like a clone of the O2/ODAC and it's not. Magni sounds like a slightly more bright/tinny/thin version of the O2. No exaggeration there.
 
Not trying to argue and I hope I don't across as a jerk, but I just hope that people read tons of other reviews before deciding which setup to buy. Try both setups if you can. Schiit has a 15 day trial I think.
 
Right now i'm using O2+Modi and love it. Seems to play well with everything now just like my main setup.
 
Nothing wrong with the Magni and I'd probably have kept it if I had only warm/slightly dark headphones like the HD-650 or HD-598.
 
 
TL;DR
 
If an amp/dac combo is only good with a specific type of headphone, then i'd say that's quite a large difference and it's worth pointing out.

Indeed, actually a really good point you make there. I did NOT get the Magni because I had two Beyer cans, which are already BRIGHT enough as it is.
 
Although I wonder how much better or brighter my cans will sound of an Audio GD NFB 10ES2... any one compare the O2 to that amp [as it's my next upgrade] [and yes I have Fully Balanced cans] 

 

[tdockweiler]

The O2 actually does seem to have an ultra tiny bit of brightness to it in the treble also (despite not being measurable). It's still fine with the K400, Q701 and KRKs though. Not quite as bad as the Magni. It's almost impossible to hear with most music (like 95% of it). If you listen to the harshest of harsh music it's there. One example is on some Utada Hikaru Live tracks. Almost gives me a headache.
 
When switching from the Modi to E17 as a DAC it's maybe a little bit better, but still mostly the same. I can't hear any treble roll off on the E17 DAC.
 
How do you tell if it's really the music's fault, the O2 or the headphone? Impossible i'd think. I'm going to say it's just nit-picking.
 
I switched to my Micro Amp and it's smooth on nearly everything and the same song. Ruler flat with no drop off in the treble. I'm glad it's not caused by the Modi or E17.
 
Oh and I know you'll all say my Micro is just colored. My money is on it being more transparent than the O2

My ears tell me this.
 
Overall the O2 sounds great with all my headphones and 95% of my music. I think any music that's enough to bother me that badly is worth deleting.
 
Could be the O2 is just more revealing of crap. Basically they sound nearly identical, but that the Micro sounds like a very very slightly smoother O2.
 
O2 is definitely the best budget amp i've ever heard under $150. Well, duh.