[Sonic Defender]

I beg to disagree. There are some rather chip DACs which are hands down better than the Mojo that's for sure, however they're rather old designs that cost more even than Dave (that's more than 15 Mojos...). But they do exist indeed and they do sound heavenly...

Well, that could be, but first you note the massive price difference and you do need to consider that Rob was clear he was talking about measurements and not subjective opinion on how something sounds, if that is what you are talking about which is somewhat unclear. Cheers.

 

[Leo-]

Well, that could be, but first you note the massive price difference and you do need to consider that Rob was clear he was talking about measurements and not subjective opinion on how something sounds, if that is what you are talking about which is somewhat unclear. Cheers.

Yes, even Rob has written before that NOS DACs can be very good with high quality analog filters, however they end up being very expensive. I would add that very good power supplies are also very important, which end up making them very expensive indeed - however above he suggested that Mojo would be superior to all those DACs regardless of their cost, something to which my ears won't to agree with.

 

[UNOE]

Anyone know if I could make a USB data able with out 5v for Mojo? I want to make a high grade cable and if 5V is not needed for music port I might as well leave it out. This cable will only be used on Mojo. I will have another cable for charging.

 

[x RELIC x]

Anyone know if I could make a USB data able with out 5v for Mojo? I want to make a high grade cable and if 5V is not needed for music port I might as well leave it out. This cable will only be used on Mojo. I will have another cable for charging.

Nope.

Mojo needs the +5v on the USB VBUS wire permanently; I use this wire simply to tell the FPGA to select the USB as an input, then to shut down power to the OPT receiver and coax SPDIF interface chip.

The wire is just used to sense, and is very heavily filtered; there is no way RF noise from this line can affect Mojo, so don't worry about it.

Rob

 

[UNOE]

Okay thanks

 

[Sonic Defender]

... however above he suggested that Mojo would be superior to all those DACs regardless of their cost, something to which my ears won't to agree with.

I'm not sure he meant sound better, that is subjective, I still think he meant measure better, but at the level any well designed and implemented DAC measures the discussion is very academic. What does the difference between 0.00265% distortion versus 0.00325% distortion sound like (hypothetical figures)? I'm just trying to illustrate the point that measurements can be taken and expressed, but that doesn't mean they are audible. I know that you weren't making that point, I'm just throwing it into the discussion because I sometimes get the sense that some people feel that if a measurement of say distortion is already well beyond the threshold of hearing that going lower yet can somehow produce an audible benefit which essentially is poppycock as they say. Not sure what my aggregate point is? Oh well.

 

[Rob Watts]

I'm not sure he meant sound better, that is subjective, I still think he meant measure better, but at the level any well designed and implemented DAC measures the discussion is very academic. What does the difference between 0.00265% distortion versus 0.00325% distortion sound like (hypothetical figures)? I'm just trying to illustrate the point that measurements can be taken and expressed, but that doesn't mean they are audible. I know that you weren't making that point, I'm just throwing it into the discussion because I sometimes get the sense that some people feel that if a measurement of say distortion is already well beyond the threshold of hearing that going lower yet can somehow produce an audible benefit which essentially is poppycock as they say. Not sure what my aggregate point is? Oh well.

Actually my opinion is that Mojo sounds very much better than any DAC at any price point; but of course that is my subjective opinion, no matter how rigorous my subjective evaluations are. I have had some of Mojo's competitors at my home, and was shocked at how badly they perform sonically; but at the end of the day, that's just my personal opinion.

But as regards measurements no you are incorrect - the key measurement that Mojo has over all other DAC's is lack of noise floor modulation, and this is - again in my opinion - highly audible.

The red trace (no signal) has the exactly the same noise floor as the blue trace (2.5v RMS into 300 ohm load). This performance is unmatched by any other DAC at any price point; all other non Chord DAC's have the 2.5v noise floor at best at around -150dB - and some have even more noise floor modulation.

Mojo's unique performance is not limited to noise floor modulation - it will resolve small signals to a much better accuracy than all other DAC's - it will resolve a -120 dB signal with no measurable amplitude error - and no other DAC, at any price point, can do that. Small signal accuracy is essential for detail resolution and depth perception.

Of course any follower of this thread will know that the other feature - that is unique to my DAC's - is the interpolation filter. Conventional interpolation filters are poor, and have substantial timing errors when they come to reconstruct transients. Timing is a crucial perceptual cue, being used by the brain for soundstage, timbre, and pitch (particularly bass) perception; and because Mojo employs 44 DSP cores running in parallel, and has about 500 times more processing power than all other chip DAC's, it is able to do a much more accurate job of reconstructing the timing of transients for the original analogue signal.

So when I get to hear other DAC's, they sound flat (poor soundstage due to poor ability to resolve small signals), they sound hard, bright and fatiguing (exactly due from listening tests of noise floor modulation and confirmed by their poor measurements) and they have bad timbre reproduction and soft ill defined bass (due to the timing errors from low tap length interpolation filters).

There is no magic or hype associated with this; it's all down to decades of solid research and advanced engineering; all of the above effects are verifiable by measurement, and IMHO easily audible.

 

[bikutoru]

"...at the level any well designed and implemented DAC measures the discussion is very academic..."

If we do not take measurements into considerations and every person's hearing is subjective, then all we have people's opinion that:
1. NOS dacs are superiour to upsampling dacs, always
2. More expensive always better than less expensive
3. No matter what any of you say, Mojo is not good because they are right and you are wrong
4. LPSU, cables, cable lifters, etc, etc, etc in my system is better than your SPSU, cables, etc. etc....
stay on any audiophile forum for more than 2 hours and you can fill another dozen of these...
5.
6.
7.
....
...
...and nothing, absolutely nothing in this world can convince them otherwise, because they 'know' what they are talking about. I wish Rob had no desire to follow this thread to hear these over and over again, even some of us benefit from him being here.

I'd rather hear academic discussions...

On the other hand, I have a friend who makes music but cannot hear a difference between 128 and 320 bitrate of mp3. So, in theory, it is possible that Mojo, to him, will sound just the same as a headphone jack out of the worst computer. Does he argue that his computer's audio port sounds just the same or better? No, he makes music.
But here we seem to be the subject of these arguments non-stop. I just wonder, if Mojo does not sound any better than some other dac, why not use that dac and be happy - why do they need to prove something to people enjoying Mojo?

 

[Deftone]

I just wonder, if Mojo does not sound any better than some other dac, why not use that dac and be happy - why do they need to prove something to people enjoying Mojo?

These type of people don’t like that someone else is enjoying things a lot more than them so they try to ruin it for others and knock them down to their miserable level.

 

[GrussGott]

These type of people don’t like that someone else is enjoying things a lot more than them so they try to ruin it for others and knock them down to their miserable level.

For these consumer products forums there are really 5 use-cases:

(1.) I'm new to audio products and looking for neutral advice about this product (research)

(2.) I'm experienced, but new to this product, and need neutral practical knowledge (insights)

(3.) I'm in love with this product and want to share my love with others (camaraderie)

(4.) I hate this product and want to share my hate with others (activism)

(5.) I own this product and would like usage advice / ideas (collaboration)

Head-Fi forces all of us into one place and it results in some unhappy people and then a lot of insults get tossed about between lovers and haters confusing things for newbies. And for those of us who are neutral, the constant fawning can get annoying.

Amazon, amongst other sites for example, uses product ratings and separate discussion boards which helps separate out these different uses, and that might be a solution here. Adding to the problem is money: sponsorships can have the effect of turning threads like this into one long commercial.

But, until there's another solution, we're all stuck with each other in this thread.

 

[IamMathew]

Actually my opinion is that Mojo sounds very much better than any DAC at any price point; but of course that is my subjective opinion, no matter how rigorous my subjective evaluations are. I have had some of Mojo's competitors at my home, and was shocked at how badly they perform sonically; but at the end of the day, that's just my personal opinion.

But as regards measurements no you are incorrect - the key measurement that Mojo has over all other DAC's is lack of noise floor modulation, and this is - again in my opinion - highly audible.



The red trace (no signal) has the exactly the same noise floor as the blue trace (2.5v RMS into 300 ohm load). This performance is unmatched by any other DAC at any price point; all other non Chord DAC's have the 2.5v noise floor at best at around -150dB - and some have even more noise floor modulation.

Mojo's unique performance is not limited to noise floor modulation - it will resolve small signals to a much better accuracy than all other DAC's - it will resolve a -120 dB signal with no measurable amplitude error - and no other DAC, at any price point, can do that. Small signal accuracy is essential for detail resolution and depth perception.

Of course any follower of this thread will know that the other feature - that is unique to my DAC's - is the interpolation filter. Conventional interpolation filters are poor, and have substantial timing errors when they come to reconstruct transients. Timing is a crucial perceptual cue, being used by the brain for soundstage, timbre, and pitch (particularly bass) perception; and because Mojo employs 44 DSP cores running in parallel, and has about 500 times more processing power than all other chip DAC's, it is able to do a much more accurate job of reconstructing the timing of transients for the original analogue signal.

So when I get to hear other DAC's, they sound flat (poor soundstage due to poor ability to resolve small signals), they sound hard, bright and fatiguing (exactly due from listening tests of noise floor modulation and confirmed by their poor measurements) and they have bad timbre reproduction and soft ill defined bass (due to the timing errors from low tap length interpolation filters).

There is no magic or hype associated with this; it's all down to decades of solid research and advanced engineering; all of the above effects are verifiable by measurement, and IMHO easily audible.

What about these measruements from stereophile? https://www.stereophile.com/content/chord-electronics-mojo-da-headphone-amplifier-measurements

 

[Zojokkeli]

"...at the level any well designed and implemented DAC measures the discussion is very academic..."

If we do not take measurements into considerations and every person's hearing is subjective, then all we have people's opinion that:
1. NOS dacs are superiour to upsampling dacs, always
2. More expensive always better than less expensive
3. No matter what any of you say, Mojo is not good because they are right and you are wrong
4. LPSU, cables, cable lifters, etc, etc, etc in my system is better than your SPSU, cables, etc. etc....
stay on any audiophile forum for more than 2 hours and you can fill another dozen of these...
5.
6.
7.
....
...
...and nothing, absolutely nothing in this world can convince them otherwise, because they 'know' what they are talking about. I wish Rob had no desire to follow this thread to hear these over and over again, even some of us benefit from him being here.

I'd rather hear academic discussions...

On the other hand, I have a friend who makes music but cannot hear a difference between 128 and 320 bitrate of mp3. So, in theory, it is possible that Mojo, to him, will sound just the same as a headphone jack out of the worst computer. Does he argue that his computer's audio port sounds just the same or better? No, he makes music.
But here we seem to be the subject of these arguments non-stop. I just wonder, if Mojo does not sound any better than some other dac, why not use that dac and be happy - why do they need to prove something to people enjoying Mojo?

Don't forget that all DACs sound the same.

 

[Light - Man]

Don't forget that all DACs sound the same.

But they don't all taste the same?

 

[Rob Watts]

What about these measruements from stereophile? https://www.stereophile.com/content/chord-electronics-mojo-da-headphone-amplifier-measurements

Absolutely - but they are from the AP ADC itself. The APX555 - the most advanced Audio Precision - does not show ADC noise floor modulation with a single tone as it incorporates 4 ADC's, 2 two to measure the residual, and two to measure the fundamental. Stereophile does not have an APX555, and this will severely limit the measured performance. But even with the APX 555, the two tone intermod test shows noise floor modulation, but this entirely comes from the AP as you would need six ADC's to do this test properly.
Of course, Davina - my ADC project - does not suffer from noise floor modulation, so using a future Davina ADC would solve this measurement issue.

 

[Zojokkeli]

But they don't all taste the same?

Seems like double-blind tasting tests for DACs are in order.