May 9, 2020 at 12:48 PM Post #4,771 of 7,189
Hey guys, thanks to conversations I've had with the owner of Ciunas Audio I discovered a few things that would hopefully clear a few recent misconceptions on their power filters - copied here with his permission.

Very nice. Thanks for sharing. I think at around the under $250 price point, other options maybe more optimal than an LPS. Otherwise, you need an LPS around the same price as a Qutest just to filter out all the RFI. RFI is the #1 enemy for Chord devices, but some prefer the RFI brightness. I tried to put myself in the shoes of a Qutest owner to see what options are available if the ISO-PS is not suitable.

I did some digging and confirmed with Sir Rob this past week:

rwpsu.png

PSU.png



Battery Type

Dynamic

Impedance
Car BatteryX0.02 ohm
LiFePo4X<8mohm
SupercapacitorX<3.2mohm
USB Battery BankUnknown. Assuming > [Car Battery, LiFePo4 or Super caps]

Car battery maybe impractical, so I came to the conclusion that LiFePo4 maybe the most optimal after Supercapacitor. If it wasn't for the 12V down-convert 5V bottleneck, it would be the most optimal. For HMS, I believe it to be the most optimal since it's straight 12V. If LiFePo4 can power a Tesla 0-60 in under 3 seconds, it should do fine with the dynamic swings of audio.

So the question you may want to raise with JK is if there is any down conversion to 5V for the ISO-PS or if it's close to native 5V. Also how it handles RFI. Super caps seem to filter out the RFI somehow so a confirmation from JK on how this works would be great. My main concern tho is safety. Maybe check what safeguards are in place to ensure it doesn't start a fire. With the teardown, that's what immediately caught my attention.

The ISO-PS should pair well with your Furman.

Thanks for inspiring me to look into this path. I'm going to eventually get a LiFePo4 for my digital source with the 12V to 5V down for about the same price as a regular USB battery bank with 3A output.

11230947.jpg
11230974.png


11230946.jpg


11230951.jpg


11230945.jpg


For the Shanti, the impressions seem good especially at that price. You can purchase the Shanti at Raspberry Pi online shops if you don't want to buy direct from Allo. Just worried about the undervoltage.

shanti.png


AA
 
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May 9, 2020 at 5:21 PM Post #4,772 of 7,189
Very nice. Thanks for sharing. I think at around the under $250 price point, other options maybe more optimal than an LPS. Otherwise, you need an LPS around the same price as a Qutest just to filter out all the RFI. RFI is the #1 enemy for Chord devices, but some prefer the RFI brightness. I tried to put myself in the shoes of a Qutest owner to see what options are available if the ISO-PS is not suitable.
Granted there may be better LPS for over $1800, but the 5v ISO-PS from Ciunas Audio seems like a pretty low risk at only $165 + shipping though, and it's less than most other options around.
So the question you may want to raise with JK is if there is any down conversion to 5V for the ISO-PS or if it's close to native 5V. Also how it handles RFI. Super caps seem to filter out the RFI somehow so a confirmation from JK on how this works would be great. My main concern tho is safety. Maybe check what safeguards are in place to ensure it doesn't start a fire. With the teardown, that's what immediately caught my attention.
I've already ordered their supercapacitor LPS (ISO-PS) for me personally I have no interest in chasing a rabbit hole of myriads of unnecessary technical questions / banter, nor do I have the time - I think I speak for most of us as well. But it may be beneficial to some to know. So maybe @aspro has any words on if his units output native voltage and how they handle RFI. As for safety, as mentioned there does not seem to have ever been an incident with any of his power supplies... and I'd say to don't judge a book by it's cover, or a product by a biased review of a 7 year old broken product by a brand that was not even the item in question.

Please accept my apologies for sounding frank. I don't proclaim to be the biggest proponent of Ciunas Audio nor have I tried them yet, but my strong impression from multiple forums and speaking with the owner is that they make solid products that perform exceptionally and have been a victim of biased reviews, but moreso that I am satisfied with the choice that I made and have no desire to chase after minuscule details on the inner workings of a power supply. If you do, I think you should join another thread and link to it here. You can probably find even better answers that way and post about experience rather than derailing things too much about speculations on the Qutest DAC thread.

Also if you are interested in the LiFeP04 battery option, perhaps you can just add a few resistors on the DC output or find one that outputs 5v natively.
 
May 9, 2020 at 6:11 PM Post #4,773 of 7,189
Ironically the Qutest takes 5V power and internally switches it up to 12v.
This was a change from the 2Qute which took 12v. One theory someone put forward is that the change to 5V was to allow people to use the variety of 5V Phone supplies out there, but if those very supplies are often risky and forbidden by Chord Anyway the change makes no sense. Personally I would have preferred it stay at 12v but it is what it is.

To downconvert yourself you would need voltage regulators. Poor voltage regulators may add noise, or if they fail, no more Qutest.
Even manufactured 5V battery supplies would need good regulation to be trusted. Rob has mentioned one he has used for his Mscaler is the a Pilot Pro2 . But apart from that I wouldn’t trust any Cheap power supplies battery or not.

But not being cheap is definitely not a guarantee of them sounding better than the stock power supply. I know 2 well regarded well regulated supplies in the hundreds of dollars, that sound terrible with the Qutest.

Stick with the stock supply. Unless you are getting one of a very short list of quality supplies that sound good with the Qutest, I would stay well away from power supply experiments and tweak elsewhere.
 
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May 9, 2020 at 7:16 PM Post #4,774 of 7,189
Granted there may be better LPS for over $1800, but the 5v ISO-PS from Ciunas Audio seems like a pretty low risk at only $165 + shipping though, and it's less than most other options around.

I've already ordered their supercapacitor LPS (ISO-PS) for me personally I have no interest in chasing a rabbit hole of myriads of unnecessary technical questions / banter, nor do I have the time - I think I speak for most of us as well. But it may be beneficial to some to know. So maybe @aspro has any words on if his units output native voltage and how they handle RFI. As for safety, as mentioned there does not seem to have ever been an incident with any of his power supplies... and I'd say to don't judge a book by it's cover, or a product by a biased review of a 7 year old broken product by a brand that was not even the item in question.

Please accept my apologies for sounding frank. I don't proclaim to be the biggest proponent of Ciunas Audio nor have I tried them yet, but my strong impression from multiple forums and speaking with the owner is that they make solid products that perform exceptionally and have been a victim of biased reviews, but moreso that I am satisfied with the choice that I made and have no desire to chase after minuscule details on the inner workings of a power supply. If you do, I think you should join another thread and link to it here. You can probably find even better answers that way and post about experience rather than derailing things too much about speculations on the Qutest DAC thread.

Also if you are interested in the LiFeP04 battery option, perhaps you can just add a few resistors on the DC output or find one that outputs 5v natively.

That's a good deal. Low risk, high reward. I'm glad the process is over and the ISO-PS is on it's way soon.

No need for further questions to the owner, your previous post was more than enough. The ISO-PS Supercapacitor is still my primary choice for the Mojo battery replacement after you eased my concerns. Hope it can be sort of like a Mojo TT w/ the Super Caps.

No worries, it takes years to get acclimated to all the Chord lingo and acronyms. It can be overwhelming. I just follow the solid principles and advice from the DAC designer.

LiFePO4 is just another option. Just like if I had to choose between the ISO-PS SC vs. ISO-PS LiFePO4 solutions:

https://www.ciunas.biz/product-page/iso-ps

Just trying to provide a 1B plan if you were on the fence with the 1A plan. When you mentioned you purchased, it was under "Other Comments"; so I wasn't sure if those were your comments or someone else's comments.
 
May 9, 2020 at 7:21 PM Post #4,775 of 7,189
Ironically the Qutest takes 5V power and internally switches it up to 12v.
This was a change from the 2Qute which took 12v. One theory someone put forward is that the change to 5V was to allow people to use the variety of 5V Phone supplies out there, but if those very supplies are often risky and forbidden by Chord Anyway the change makes no sense. Personally I would have preferred it stay at 12v but it is what it is.

That's really good to know. I'll have to re-visit the 2Qute thread. Has anyone opened the Qutest to see if you can bypass the 5V USB and connect PWR directly?

Also, has this ever been discussed? The ASR site mentions this could be due to mains-related noise? I'm wondering if battery will improve things.

qut.png
 
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May 10, 2020 at 2:17 AM Post #4,776 of 7,189
Strange that everyone is focussed on Lithium batteries of one sort or another event though these must supply some form of electronic regeneration in order to provide 5V.

Good old-fashioned NiMH cells provide 1.2V - 1.3V so 4 of them in series would give 4.8V to 5.2V directly without regeneration.

You can get NiMH 'D' cells in 10,000mAh form which would drive Qutest directly for up to 16 hours.

Simply buy 8 and you can have 4 in the supply and another 4 standing by in the charger.
 
May 10, 2020 at 6:30 PM Post #4,777 of 7,189
Strange that everyone is focussed on Lithium batteries of one sort or another event though these must supply some form of electronic regeneration in order to provide 5V.

Good old-fashioned NiMH cells provide 1.2V - 1.3V so 4 of them in series would give 4.8V to 5.2V directly without regeneration.

You can get NiMH 'D' cells in 10,000mAh form which would drive Qutest directly for up to 16 hours.

Simply buy 8 and you can have 4 in the supply and another 4 standing by in the charger.

Lovely. Thanks for providing another battery option. I love the 4+4 standby scalability option. I had a similar 'thought process' with rotating LiFePO4 (~AA sized) batteries.

I think it's more an issue of why the Qutest is not 12V in the first place. Then you can run 12V natively like the HMS and not have to worry about the 5V down. I think I'll wait for a Qutest2 w/ 12V.

This is all that's needed if your device is 12V input:

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1220.jpg


Simple, powerful and clean. No down-conversion, no 'half-measures' noiseless 12V solution.

emi.png


I would want the on-demand power of a car battery or LiFePO4 tho and not having to charge everyday. For e-bikes, e-scooters and Teslas having that on-demand dynamic power of going uphill or immediate acceleration is mandatory. For audio needs, imo it would be mandatory. Depending on the size of battery you may only have to charge once or twice a month.

Here's a very demanding veteran Chord poster's comment w/ a regular USB battery bank (3-4 hours max):

christer.png

cc2.png
 
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May 10, 2020 at 9:59 PM Post #4,778 of 7,189
Okay. Good luck everyone. My arc is finished here. Too many 12-hour work days this month to think about audio stuff...

Leave you with this:



Mother Of Tone Link

Air and Electric Current

What do air and the electric current have in common ?


They are both media needed for musical recording and reproduction.


As air is the medium in front of the microphone and again after the loudspeaker, the electrical current is the musical medium for all processes between the microphone and the speaker.


If you want to listen to music the very first prerequisite is silence, that means the absence of any disturbances in the medium air.


You cannot record or enjoy music while someone operates the vacuum cleaner in the same room. It is impossible.


The same holds true for the electrical current. You can neither record nor reproduce a musical performance in high-fidelity, if your recording or replay-equipment is powered from disturbed current.


As a vaccum cleaner makes unwanted noise in the air, there can also be unwanted noise in the electrical current.


This is a point that is often overlooked, but as a matter of fact, the quality of the electrical current that powers your equipment has the same influence on the sound, as for example the circuitry that is used.


The great majority of hifi-equipment is mains (AC) powered. But not only your hifi-stuff is mains powered, but many electrical devices in your house, neighborhood, block, region. You all virtually hang on the same wire. As any electrical device is powered on or off, a ripple is generated on the AC-wave. So if you live in a large city or near an industrial complex, your AC mains voltage can be quite noisy. This AC-induced noise also enters your hifi-system and generates signals that are not on the recording you want to listen to.


A practical proof for the above statement is the variety of products that are available in order to improve the current that enters your hifi-system: All kinds of purifiers, filters, power conditioners, power cables are available just to clean the AC-current before it enters the hifi-system.


The following 10-sec. scope-shot shows you the voltage variation on the transformer secondary of a mains powered audio amplifier (no signal or load applied to amplifier):






As you see, there are some larger drops, but also take a look on the smaller ripples.


If you think your hifi-system sounds much better in the night-time, this is not necessarily related to the amount of beer or wine you drink, it can also depend on the AC-current that is naturally cleaner during night, since less electrical consumers are active.


But let's assume, you live in a remote region with only few electrical consumers and your AC is clean.


The 'clean' mains AC voltage (110 .. 250V) is reduced to lower voltages by a transformer. Since all hifi-gear needs direct current, the lowered AC voltage must be rectified. This is done by a couple of diodes which load a capacitor in a switching manner, that means when the capacitor voltage is lower than the tranformer voltage the diode is switched on, charging the capacitor. As soon as the voltage across the capacitor reaches the actual level of the transformer secondary voltage, the diode switches off.


Let's take a closer look. The following shots show the voltage across one diode of an audio amplifier's full bridge rectifier. The picture series features continuous magnification.


123


456


7



There is a spike, each time the diode shuts off. Pic #4 shows, that the spike is really a longer ringing.

Pic #5 and #6 measure the frequency of the shut-off ringing. It's about 40kHz. But you see that this is not all. There are spikes within the ringing. Pic #7 shows am even greater stretch. You see that much higher frequencies are involved, the spike is a second ringing at around 600kHz. These measurements are made with no signal applied to the amplifier and thus with low forward current. With the amplifier being loaded, the amplitude of the spikes and ringing is higher.

Do you think I'm counting peas ? This is the reason you eventually hear a mains hum from your speakers. Normally the feedback of the amplifier would zero out the switching spikes, but the frequency of the ringing is so high, that the amplifier is not able to eliminate it.

The distortion mechanism of switching diodes is very low in numbers. It is part of the total-harmonic-distortion figure of your amplifier, but even if your amp's distortion is 0,0001%, this kind of high-frequency burst distortion is not at all correlated to the music and thus you may well be able to hear it.

There are ways to lessen or change the effect of diode switching (i.e. placing a capacitor over the rectifier diodes, chosing fast recovery diodes, etc.) but in practice I have not encountered any AC powered amplifier without a certain level of mains hum.

Even if the mains hum is very low, it changes the sound character of the musical performance. It throws some kind of grain and aggression into the picture. This deteriorating effect is smaller with vacuum tube amplifiers that employ a rectifier-tube which does not generate high-frequency bursts.

However, there is a very effective way, we can completely eliminate the negative effects of AC induced noise and switching bursts:


Battery Power

Car%20battery.jpg



If we were able to power our hifi-system with a battery, we would not only avoid the mains- and diode-switching-noise, we would also have a fast power source with a very low impedance. No need to employ large (and slow) electrolytic capacitors. No need for expensive power cords, no filters, purifiers or AC-conditioners required.

What makes a high-quality audio amplifier expensive ? It is the power supply.

In order to lessen the effects of AC noise and switching HF bursts while maintaining a low output impedance, sophisticated circuitry and expensive components are needed. And even then, the performance of an expensive hi-end amplifier may still be improved by certain power cords or expensive AC-conditioners.

Does that make sense ?

In any case, AC power may be convenient, but it makes our hifi-gear very expensive as soon as a - higher than standard - qualitiy is desired.

Even if we were willing to spend larger sums of money to buy expensive equipment, power cords, purifiers and power conditioners, the performance even of your average car battery in terms of current capacity, noise and speed is very difficult to match.

In other words, with the use of - just your old car battery -, audio equipment of high sound quality could be achieved with moderate cost.

BYOB - Bring Your Own Battery

EDIT: Almost forgot the AudioBacon comments:

ab1.png


ab2.png


AB
 
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May 11, 2020 at 5:04 PM Post #4,783 of 7,189
I've the Pilot Pro2 but I prefer the stock PSU. The instruments were much more distinct, quick and punchy bass, and better layers.

Battery always sounded soft to my liking. I've ordered some rechargeable NiMH to try out. The charger has a 5V USB out.

Everyone's situation is different + the preferences. But it's nice to see you keep an open mind and experiment. This was posted yesterday:

pp2tt2.png


For them, the PP2 worked out on their TT2. But then lost me when they threw a regulator in the mix. It's fine, whatever works for each individual. I just tried to put out there are other options available since battery tech is so robust nowadays.

I know batteries are not labeled "audiophile" so it may not be as appealing:

tt2psu.png

RW--

Knowing now that I can get a simple LiFePO4 for $50. I rather go this route than a regular USB battery bank. They last 5-10 years and less freq charging.

https://www.bioennopower.com/collections/12v-series-lifepo4-batteries

bp.png


You have the power of a car battery in a small safe form factor. That's what I would want going forward to power audio equipment. Only a few alternatives listed below offer dynamic power with low impedance. Regular USB battery banks don't offer this performance so I'm moving on from USB battery banks. I want the fast twitch dynamic power that only LiFePO4 and car battery offer. It's close to the same price here as a USB battery bank in California so might as well evolve to LiFePO4. No risk, high reward situation. Another option is the PP2 powering the ISO-PS SC to give you dynamic power and low impedance, but dependent on situation. I don't consider PP2 or regular USB battery banks high performers, but do provide clean power.


Battery Type

Dynamic

Impedance
Car BatteryX0.02 ohm
LiFePo4X<8mohm
SupercapacitorX<3.2mohm
USB Battery BankUnknown. Assuming > [Car Battery, LiFePo4 or Super caps]

Edit: It kinda threw me off you were using PP2 for USB PWR since most are using it for the DC (4.5A). Are you plugging into USB1 (2A)? Sometimes USB ports share the same bus so best to only use one port at a time to ensure one port is not taking away power from another port.

pp2specs.png


pp2usb.png
 
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May 12, 2020 at 5:22 AM Post #4,784 of 7,189
Edit: It kinda threw me off you were using PP2 for USB PWR since most are using it for the DC (4.5A). Are you plugging into USB1 (2A)? Sometimes USB ports share the same bus so best to only use one port at a time to ensure one port is not taking away power from another port.

You have brought up a good point! I couldn't remember which USB port I used for testing. Just plug and play, ;)

Thought Rob said 1A is sufficient to power the Qutest.
 
May 12, 2020 at 2:06 PM Post #4,785 of 7,189
You have brought up a good point! I couldn't remember which USB port I used for testing. Just plug and play, :wink:

Thought Rob said 1A is sufficient to power the Qutest.

Thanks for your refreshing honesty. In my experience, the Hugo2 will auto-shutoff if your listening and charging at the same time with 1A. It's not enough for that purpose. Supplying 2A+ should give you a better impression by giving it proper power. I'm only looking for 3A solutions going forward. That's why I was so overjoyed when the USBbuddy specs revealed a HQ 3A output:

11232063.jpg


A random USB micro cable may not be enough. I recommend at least a Anker microUSB cable:

https://www.amazon.com/Anker-Powerline-Premium-Motorola-Smartphones/dp/B019Q6Y2MK?ref_=ast_sto_dp

I had a cable that works fine for all devices I have tried except for Hugo2. It would stop charging after 10 minutes. Once I insert the Anker, everything works normally.

On the extreme end, I use a Ghentaudio Gotham with 5 layers of shielding. This gives it proper bandwidth and since I work so hard to keep RFI out of the system I don't want it sneaking in via the cable.

fungal.png

RW--

qut.png


gotham.jpg


WARNING: The Gotham cable will likely NOT work with the Qutest. It's a PWR only cable, no DATA. From my understanding the Qutest needs a 5V handshake to turn on. I don't see a physical ON/OFF button. For example, the gold thin 5V cable on the photo below conducts the handshake. The Gotham cable does not have this soldered in... I have no idea how the Qutest turns off and on so could be completely in the wrong.

cc.png


I noticed audio equipment and sound systems listed in the description:

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The battery targeting avionics looking inviting:

avionics.png


Another option are Tesla replacement batteries:

tesla.png


GL GG
 
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