Chord Electronics Qutest DAC - Official Thread
Jan 23, 2018 at 5:37 AM Post #376 of 6,740
3W, 2A3, SET paired with 105db speakers here and... if I set the volume knob beyond 1/3-1/4 the walls start shaking :p

I think that is the definition then of 'powerful enough'. Of course you might just have this walls!

At the moment I am trying a Chord SPM 1200 Mk (350W per channel) with 89dB speakers. That also shakes the walls.
 
Jan 23, 2018 at 7:52 AM Post #377 of 6,740
Talking about max volume... how many of you have tried playing their setup at high SPLs, a busy orchestral piece such as Carl Orff's fortuna from Carmina Burana and compared it to say being seated front arena at a concert hall.

Aside from the dynamic compression limitations we already know, I believe Rob totally when he says there is a lot we still don't know about how our brain interprets signals received from our ears. Therefore, reproduced music just doesn't sound the same - even if you turn it up full blast. On entering the North West Audio show once, there was a setup with a pair of TAD Compact Reference 1s blasting away at ear piercing levels, you just feel like turning down the volume after 5mins. This is not just about harsh top-end, it is the entire spectrum. I haven't understood why the industry does not seem to recognise this. To me at least, even the most capable of systems known to retain composure at extreme volume, almost all still fall short of recreating the easy-going grandeur of a full orchestra where it is often, an absolute joy to listen for hours.

For me personally, hoping the Qutest will get me a bit more closer to that destination.
 
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Jan 23, 2018 at 8:28 AM Post #378 of 6,740
Seek out better recordings instead of swapping gear. Much of the music these days is just terrible with dynamic range compression and loudness mastering. It's not the gear, it's the crap music that fatigues.

That's how I got to Head-Fi in the first place. There simply aren't many remasters of my favorite music so I spent most of 2015 upsampling (transcoding) to DSD512. If hi-res versions were available I could've saved so much time and money.

No idea how/why you assume an issue is solely due to newer stuff that I don't listen to anyway (not sure it's even worth being called music). But that doesn't make older recordings perfect. How many albums are universally considered to be perfectly recorded and mastered? I love music but no way I'd abandon a favorite artist just because they're work didn't warrant a DSD remaster. It'd make no sense to organize my listening habits by recording quality rather than personal preference. Defeats the whole purpose of musical enjoyment; more akin to just another tech demo.

AFAIK, Chord DACs are designed to oversample 2048 times for reasons including the above. That's why they stay on my radar. It's only the pricing that's kept me away (unless I finally break down and get the Mojo).
 
Jan 23, 2018 at 1:18 PM Post #379 of 6,740
That's how I got to Head-Fi in the first place. There simply aren't many remasters of my favorite music so I spent most of 2015 upsampling (transcoding) to DSD512. If hi-res versions were available I could've saved so much time and money.

No idea how/why you assume an issue is solely due to newer stuff that I don't listen to anyway (not sure it's even worth being called music). But that doesn't make older recordings perfect. How many albums are universally considered to be perfectly recorded and mastered? I love music but no way I'd abandon a favorite artist just because they're work didn't warrant a DSD remaster. It'd make no sense to organize my listening habits by recording quality rather than personal preference. Defeats the whole purpose of musical enjoyment; more akin to just another tech demo.

AFAIK, Chord DACs are designed to oversample 2048 times for reasons including the above. That's why they stay on my radar. It's only the pricing that's kept me away (unless I finally break down and get the Mojo).
Not sure where you got the idea that upsampling a crappy, loudness mastered and dynamic range compressed recording will somehow make it better? Garbage in, garbage out. You can take a picture of a turd with a 50mm lens or you can take a picture with a 100mm lens, it is still the same turd in detail..
 
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Jan 23, 2018 at 1:40 PM Post #381 of 6,740
I think digital filters can have a huge impact on how it sounds, but if the result is good or bad will depend of the source. Maybe Chord filters will improve bad mastered music but it could become worse. Some music just sounds better with low revealing systems.
The problem with dynamic range compressed source is that the peaks have been clipped. The damage has been done. Upsampling is not going to fix that. Back in the vinyl days, the recording engineers could not abuse the system too much, with the digital age they can and do because a louder CD used to sell much better to the unsuspecting consumer and that's what the artists wanted, to sell albums. With the modern era of digital streaming, there is hardly a need to do so but many of the recording engineers still do it. Read up on "Loudness Wars". Of course the higher resolution gear only makes things worse as the lower resolution MP3 files actually do not sound as fatiguing on mid-fi consumer devices. One does not get fatigued as easily listening to music in a car or on a mid-fi Sonos speaker for example. We all want the best sound but blame the gear for the crappy sound where the source of all the problems is the actual music we feed the high resolution gear.
 
Jan 23, 2018 at 2:16 PM Post #383 of 6,740
Not sure where you got the idea that upsampling a crappy, loudness mastered and dynamic range compressed recording will somehow make it better? Garbage in, garbage out. You can take a picture of a turd with a 50mm lens or you can take a picture with a 100mm lens, it is still the same turd in detail..

You didn't ask any specifics and now are the only one mentioning crappy recordings or compression.

The original post was about distortion (Chord being among the best measured there) which exists everywhere including my remastered 24/88 FLAC files. Where, how much, and how noticeable it is depends on the person and the setup (i.e. tubes or no tubes). Assuming poor sources must be the cause of any potential fatigue (no matter how small) in the audio chain makes little sense.
 
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Jan 23, 2018 at 2:47 PM Post #384 of 6,740
You didn't ask any specifics and now are the only one mentioning crappy recordings or compression.

The original post was about distortion (Chord being among the best measured there) which exists everywhere including my remastered 24/88 FLAC files. Where, how much, and how noticeable it is depends on the person and the setup (i.e. tubes or no tubes). Assuming poor sources must be the cause of any potential fatigue (no matter how small) in the audio chain makes little sense.
I guess you will be swapping gear for a very long time chasing that elusive solution then. Distortion at some inaudible level, way below what your ears can hear and the dynamic range vs the system noise floor and ambient noise floor of the room itself with say open headphones, is of no consequence to anything meaningful. Tubes or SS, great tubes sound like solid state and great solid state sounds like tubes, tubes are not the magic solution unless it is a very poor, bandwidth challenged design that colors the sound drastically. As far as distortion at some levels way below the actual dynamic range of your ears and system, it sounds great on paper and for marketing purposes. Test your headphone system and see for yourself if the dynamic range will allow to be concerned about some -110dB distortion levels. http://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_dynamiccheck.php
 
Jan 23, 2018 at 3:32 PM Post #385 of 6,740
You can build a great race car but until you put the race gas into it, it will never achieve greatness. Music is fuel, use high octane/great quality recording and your system will perform its best. Recordings done in analog back in the day sound warm and natural, especially captured with tube mikes onto analog tapes. There are drawbacks, dynamic range was not as great, resolution was not as great but for the most part, what needed to fit, really did fit into the dynamic range envelope of the analog capture. Sure there was some tape hiss, that is not a major distraction, there are pops, clicks, other artifacts with vinyl but analog did not sound fatiguing. Enter the digital age and loudness mastering, butchering the music. Worse yet, remastered copies butchered yet again for the sake of making them sound different/better, often to the point they are unlistenable anymore. Why? For profits of course, to sell yet another remastered copy. The digital recordings done properly, especially in native high resolution sound like music should with all the resolution and dynamic range intact. Too bad it is only a handful of boutique recording studios doing it and too many high resolution upsamples being sold at ridiculous amount of money that offer no real benefit what so ever to the musical quality of the recording. This may not be the choice of music for the younger generation but have a listen to what a PCM 96 or a or higher "Native" recording can sound like. This is what music quality should sound like with the digital tools we have today. https://soundliaison.com/
 
Jan 23, 2018 at 4:10 PM Post #386 of 6,740
It's kind of a bad idea to build a system for music you don't like just because it's high quality. I think most gear tries to improve music reproduction in general and the Qutest has 4 different filters to choose from that may help certain music to sound better. I think the best approach is to try it to see if it works with your music.
 
Jan 23, 2018 at 4:14 PM Post #387 of 6,740
It's kind of a bad idea to build a system for music you don't like just because it's high quality. I think most gear tries to improve music reproduction in general and the Qutest has 4 different filters to choose from that may help certain music to sound better. I think the best approach is to try it to see if it works with your music.
I was not suggesting one needs to change their music, simply seeking out the better recordings which often is simply not possible. We have gotten way off topic here though and this thread is for the Chord Qutest which I do intend to audition if I get a chance. I will be using it for my 2 channel audio system and will of course try it with my various headphone amps to see where a better fit for it would be.
 
Jan 23, 2018 at 5:06 PM Post #388 of 6,740
Since it's been available for audition and purchase in the UK for some time now, I'm surprised impressions haven't started coming in.

Talking about max volume... how many of you have tried playing their setup at high SPLs, a busy orchestral piece such as Carl Orff's fortuna from Carmina Burana and compared it to say being seated front arena at a concert hall.

Aside from the dynamic compression limitations we already know, I believe Rob totally when he says there is a lot we still don't know about how our brain interprets signals received from our ears. Therefore, reproduced music just doesn't sound the same - even if you turn it up full blast. On entering the North West Audio show once, there was a setup with a pair of TAD Compact Reference 1s blasting away at ear piercing levels, you just feel like turning down the volume after 5mins. This is not just about harsh top-end, it is the entire spectrum. I haven't understood why the industry does not seem to recognise this. To me at least, even the most capable of systems known to retain composure at extreme volume, almost all still fall short of recreating the easy-going grandeur of a full orchestra where it is often, an absolute joy to listen for hours.

For me personally, hoping the Qutest will get me a bit more closer to that destination.

So basically, you're saying that it's not difficult for a speaker system to get as loud as an orchestra, but we can't get it to sound as good. Quantity vs quality. That should go without saying. I've performed in orchestras and so on and have all sorts of experience as a musician. I don't think audio equipment will ever be able to fully replicate the experience of live sound, though some people may not always notice the difference. But yes, the right equipment can certainly get you closer.

It'd make no sense to organize my listening habits by recording quality rather than personal preference. Defeats the whole purpose of musical enjoyment; more akin to just another tech demo.
It's kind of a bad idea to build a system for music you don't like just because it's high quality.

This. The music you love is what's important; far more so than the quality of the recording. Check out my quotes later in this post.

It's only the pricing that's kept me away (unless I finally break down and get the Mojo).

You can find a used Mojo for under $400 nowadays. I owned it twice.

Not sure where you got the idea that upsampling a crappy, loudness mastered and dynamic range compressed recording will somehow make it better? Garbage in, garbage out.
The damage has been done. Upsampling is not going to fix that.

Hmm. Sounds like you should try a Chord DAC. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

To my (and countless others') ears, they make all music sound better.

They do far more than just upsampling. Software can be programmed to do extreme upsampling, but it won't sound nearly as good as Chord DACs and won't do even a fraction of all the things they can. (This has been covered before, but for those whose goal is fidelity, software upsampling should be avoided with Chord DACs because it interferes with their advanced digital processing and results in lower fidelity sound.)

How all this works gets very technical. You can learn a lot by reading @Rob Watts' posts.

Without going into detail, you get accuracy that is orders of magnitude greater than other DACs when it comes to timing precision and noise shaping, along with zero noise floor modulation and jitter (which, as far as I know, has never been achieved with non-Chord DACs), ultra-low distortion and output impedance, high dynamic range, and more transparent analog circuitry.

Just because a recording isn't perfect doesn't mean the DAC can't get you closer to reproducing the original analog waveform and give you better sound.

We all want the best sound but blame the gear for the crappy sound where the source of all the problems is the actual music we feed the high resolution gear.

This is a great point. Sometimes we are indeed listening to flaws in a recording rather than flaws in our systems...but not all the time. It's well-known that higher fidelity audio gear can improve what we hear. The factors I explained above combine to give you a more faithful reproduction of recordings, and sometimes they are higher quality than you may have thought.

As for the music itself, I would like to share some relevant quotes:

I would much rather listen to music I love that happens to have mediocre or average production quality than music I don't enjoy that happens to be excellently-produced. But for all music, most of the time, I want to get as close as I can to the truth of what is on the recording. I'm fine with the fact that this isn't always pretty.
As I mentioned, one of my primary goals is to get as close as I can to the truth of what is on the recording. In other words, high fidelity reproduction of the countless thousands of recordings I listen to, in nearly all genres, ranging from low to high sound quality. The focus for me is the music I like regardless of how well-produced it is. If anything, better gear makes all music more enjoyable for me. But the crucial distinction is that I do not expect crappy recordings to sound like a philharmonic orchestra. The equipment is a tool to enjoy music, not the other way around.
I feel sorry for anyone who exclusively listens to music with superb production quality, because they're missing out on the vast majority of awesome music out there.

If anyone need an example of how it is not easy to tell the difference between a 128kbps file and uncompressed WAV file, knock yourself out testing your audiophile grade ears. https://www.npr.org/sections/therecord/2015/06/02/411473508/how-well-can-you-hear-audio-quality

What's interesting is that, although it is difficult to tell things apart on that link (which I've visited before), it's incredibly easy for me to hear the difference between actual 128 kbps (or even higher) MP3s and lossless, even when I convert them myself with high quality software. Low bit rate lossy files sound downright awful in comparison in my experience. I'm not sure how they got 128 kbps to sound so good on that link.

I was not suggesting one needs to change their music, simply seeking out the better recordings which often is simply not possible.

Different recordings are different music, so...
 
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Jan 23, 2018 at 5:18 PM Post #389 of 6,740
Since it's been available for audition and purchase in the UK for some time now, I'm surprised impressions haven't started coming in.



So basically, you're saying that it's not difficult for a speaker system to get as loud as an orchestra, but we can't get it to sound as good. Quantity vs quality. That should go without saying. I've performed in orchestras and so on and have all sorts of experience as a musician. I don't think audio equipment will ever be able to fully replicate the experience of live sound, though some people may not always notice the difference. But yes, the right equipment can certainly get you closer.




This. The music you love is what's important; far more so than the quality of the recording. Check out my quotes later in this post.



You can find a used Mojo for under $400 nowadays. I owned it twice.




Hmm. Sounds like you should try a Chord DAC. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

To my (and countless others') ears, they make all music sound better.

They do far more than just upsampling. Software can be programmed to do extreme upsampling, but it won't sound nearly as good as a Chord DAC and won't do even a fraction of all the things they can. (This has been covered before, but for those whose goal is fidelity, software upsampling should be avoided with Chord DACs because it interferes with their advanced digital processing and results in lower fidelity sound.)

How all this works gets very technical. You can learn a lot by reading @Rob Watts' posts.

Without going into detail, you get accuracy that is orders of magnitude greater than other DACs when it comes to timing precision and noise shaping, along with zero noise floor modulation and jitter (which, as far as I know, has never been achieved with non-Chord DACs), ultra-low distortion and output impedance, high dynamic range, and more transparent analog circuitry.

Just because a recording isn't perfect doesn't mean the DAC can't get you closer to reproducing the original analog waveform and give you better sound.



This is a great point. Sometimes we are indeed listening to flaws in a recording rather than flaws in our systems...but not all the time. It's well-known that higher fidelity audio gear can improve what we hear. The factors I explained above combine to give you a more faithful reproduction of recordings, and sometimes they are higher quality than you may have thought.

As for the music itself, I would like to share some relevant quotes:







What's interesting is that, although it is difficult to tell things apart on that link (which I've visited before), it's incredibly easy for me to hear the difference between actual 128 kbps (or even higher) MP3s and lossless, even when I convert them myself with high quality software. Low bit rate lossy files sound downright awful in comparison in my experience. I'm not sure how they got 128 kbps to sound so good on that link. But come to think of it, I don't see any mention of the bit rate there, so it could be 360 kbps or something.



Different recordings are different music, so...
Can't argue about the benefits of a Chord DAC since I do not own one. I have owned many DACs and now riding the Schiit train of sonic goodness. Their multibit R/2R DACs are keeping me happy at the moment. I would love to try a Chord DAC for a comparison in the near future.

As to different recordings being different music... What I meant is a better recording of the SAME music. How many re-masters are there of the same old thing? Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, etc... One more terrible than the other. Then you find that old LP without the heavy handed remastering for the sake of selling yet another album of the same old thing and you realize that all those remasters are junk.
 
Jan 23, 2018 at 5:25 PM Post #390 of 6,740
Can't argue about the benefits of a Chord DAC since I do not own one. I have owned many DACs and now riding the Schiit train of sonic goodness. Their multibit R/2R DACs are keeping me happy at the moment. I would love to try a Chord DAC for a comparison in the near future.

I would love to see your comparison with the Gungnir Multibit if you get the Qutest.

As far as Chord and Schiit multibit DACs go, I only had the 2Qute (Qutest predecessor), Mojo, and Modi Multibit.

(For those who don't know: Schiit multibit DACs are hybrid R2R / resistor string, not pure resistor ladder DACs.)

What I meant is a better recording of the SAME music.

If it's a different recording, then it is different music. Perhaps you meant a better master of the same recording.
 

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