Chord Electronics - Hugo 2 - The Official Thread

Feb 15, 2018 at 2:25 PM Post #10,951 of 23,094
Back to reality...

If I had designed Hugo 2, I reckon I might be feeling rather insulted at someone passing judgment on the DACs performance without giving due consideration to how musical it actually sounds, both in it's own right, and by comparison with competing DACs. Deriding the alleged 'marketing' aspect of tap-counts without even bothering to listen & compare the musical benefits claimed to be associated with them is...
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The emotion Hugo 1 conveyed to me, from the cello music I was listening to, literally succeeded in moving me to tears - I didn't need an oscilloscope to tell me how it compares to any other DAC I'd heard previously.
 
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Feb 15, 2018 at 2:55 PM Post #10,952 of 23,094
Look, it's time I spilled the beans:

I like the sound of Mojo and Hugo 1 very much, but, frankly, they pale by comparison with the best DAC I ever encountered. In fact, I am quite confident that the DAC I am referring to will substantially outperform even the Blu-DAVE combo (sorry, Rob).

Frankly, I don't know why it isn't more popular, here on Head-Fi. I guess people here don't know a TOTL line high-end DAC when they see it. This thing is so awesome, it wouldn't even need inputs and outputs in order to give hardcore audiophiles wet dreams.

It's performance is off-the-charts accurate

Uh, maybe I'm missing something, but the spoiler button isn't working for me. Could you be talked into revealing the spoiler?
 
Feb 15, 2018 at 3:38 PM Post #10,953 of 23,094
I admire some people’s curiosity to measure a piece of equipment, but this is down right idiocy.

Firstly, what device did they use to measure the Hugo 2 with and for how long? It’s hardly going to be as precise as an APx555 for measuring noise and distortion.

Secondly, do people just not read properly? If Robs WTA filter + long tap length processing power is designed to recover transient integrity better - would it not be logical to test within the time domain? Pretty damn obvious to me.

How do you do it? Easy, one way is with an ETC (energy time curve). If you would do some research elsewhere - you know, letting curiosity guide you, rather than confirmation bias stopping you.. you may actually discover what Rob’s talking about.

Have a look on the Reference Audio Analyser website. Look at the ETC measurements for other DACs with standard filters and NOS DACs ETC measurements - then compare with the Chord Hugo. Case closed.
 
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Feb 15, 2018 at 3:51 PM Post #10,954 of 23,094
Uh, maybe I'm missing something, but the spoiler button isn't working for me. Could you be talked into revealing the spoiler?

It was a joke, the link worked for me showing a picture of a Casio (old style from the 1980s) hand held calculator... that is undoubtedly correct in terms of calculating... I hoped for some relevant competition as that is always good!
 
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Feb 15, 2018 at 4:08 PM Post #10,955 of 23,094
It was a joke, the link worked for me showing a picture of a Casio (old style from the 1980s) hand held calculator... that is undoubtedly correct in terms of calculating... I hoped for some relevant competition as that is always good!

Sorry, it wasn't intended to be funny as such - I was just irked at a DAC being (badly, IMO) judged in relation to 2 others, on the basis of questionable parameters and without due attention being paid to comparing the musical performance of the DACs, which is, after all, the primary reason for their existence.
 
Feb 15, 2018 at 4:10 PM Post #10,956 of 23,094
Back to reality...

If I had designed Hugo 2, I reckon I might be feeling rather insulted at someone passing judgment on the DACs performance without giving due consideration to how musical it actually sounds, both in it's own right, and by comparison with competing DACs. Deriding the alleged 'marketing' aspect of tap-counts without even bothering to listen & compare the musical benefits claimed to be associated with them is...


The emotion Hugo 1 conveyed to me, from the cello music I was listening to, literally succeeded in moving me to tears - I didn't need an oscilloscope to tell me how it compares to any other DAC I'd heard previously.

But what you have to understand is that the reviewer is a 'measurist' who thinks that he doesn't need to listen to a DAC in order to decide whether it is adequate or not. Notice that his reference DAC that he thinks is perfectly good enough for all DAC purposes is a $400 one that actually bought for $300. The simplistic measurist approach adopted by the review author is that his $400 DAC is not bettered by any other more expensive DAC according to his own measurements. I have tried with these people to get them to listen to a Blu2 or a Dave and they say there is no point in doing that and that if the Dave sounds different to the $400 DAC then it can only be that it is acting as an expensive tone control. The Sound Science section of this forum is full of the self important measurists who delight in belittling anyone who tries to argue against their point of view. They think we are all believers in snake oil and that we are all victims of marketing campaigns created by the companies making DACs etc. My advice is to leave them in their own little comfort zone and not to try to enlighten them. They are not interested.
 
Feb 15, 2018 at 4:24 PM Post #10,957 of 23,094
Another thing, people talking about Hugo 2 not having enough “drive”.

Objectively, it has way more “drive” than the vast majority of amps near its price point. It’s not a subjective analysis, it’s purely a measurement of output power against load. Hugo 2 can output a very high amount of current, with an extremely low output impedance - it powers the vast majority of headphones (only a minority may need extra power like the Susvara) to ear bleeding levels.

I use the Focal Spirit Classic, which is an incredibly underrated pair of cans - being one the most neutral pair of closed-backs on the market. With Hugo 2, everything one could possibly want is there. Heavy but tight bass slam, organically fluid vocals, airy highs, excellent depth and separation. I rarely go above volume red, not even with Audeze LCD-2 which I have tried with my Hugo 2 - while not as neutral as my Focals, Audeze bass is the deepest on the market, with vanishingly low distortion and perfect slam. I am never even close to maximum volume - which only clips in the white zone, something anyone who wishes to preserve their hearing will never come close to.

So why does using an external amp with certain headphones and certain individuals bias of what good sound is, appear to give their cans more “drive”? The main reason is very simple as Rob has explained; damping factor.

The Hugo 2 has an extremely low output impedance of around 0.025ohms. Which means it can accurately drive cans with impedance ranging from single digits to hundreds of ohms without changing the frequency response of the drivers significantly. The higher the output impedance, the worse the damping factor - which for most cans can result in a bass bump, here’s an example with HD650s:

(Scroll down the links page to the damping factor part)

https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/headphones/measurements/brands-s-se/hd650/

As you can see, lower damping factor results in a bump of mid-bass. As Hugo 2 output impedance is so low, bass from every headphone will be incredibly linear - which may sound great with cans that produce excellent bass, but (subjectively) bad with cans that don’t have the best bass. The proper solution for bad cans would be to buy better/different cans rather than shelling out extra money on yet another box for your system - fix the problem at its source, don’t bandage the wound with an amp.

Sennheiser make the HDV820 which is designed with the intention to add extra warmth and bass to the HD800. Its poor damping factor is successful in giving the HD800 a bit more bass and tilting the overall balance away from its crazy treble peak - it also increases low frequency THD. If the HD800s didn’t have these problems in the first place, they wouldn’t need to tune it in such a way - do you get my drift? If you’re going to consider spending thousands on an amp to go in between the Hugo 2 and your high-end cans, first consider changing your cans. There’s a huge amount of choice on the market and it’s perfectly possible that you have picked the wrong set for your tastes. While there’s no perfect pair of portable transducers - there are some that are much closer to perfect than others.

Another thing of note, sometimes imaging (soundstage) can change when using an amp after the DAC. This is down to analogue bandwidth. Hugo 2 has an extremely wide bandwidth and incredible phase accuracy - which account for its imaging acuity and depth. Any amp after the Hugo 2 signal will massively reduce bandwidth and phase accuracy, destroying all the original imaging nuance and harmonic separation - in favour of “bigger”, rounded off imaging. This is exactly what the Hugo 2 does when you switch it to the Mojo filter in a way.
 
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Feb 15, 2018 at 4:32 PM Post #10,958 of 23,094
It was a joke, the link worked for me showing a picture of a Casio (old style from the 1980s) hand held calculator... that is undoubtedly correct in terms of calculating... I hoped for some relevant competition as that is always good!
Thanks Paul. Sorry @Mython, I just didn't see the pic. Good for a smile. And yes; as long as we keep the science guys contained, they can do no harm; so to speak.
 
Feb 15, 2018 at 5:39 PM Post #10,959 of 23,094
Sorry, it wasn't intended to be funny as such - I was just irked at a DAC being (badly, IMO) judged in relation to 2 others, on the basis of questionable parameters and without due attention being paid to comparing the musical performance of the DACs, which is, after all, the primary reason for their existence.

Yes, understood, maybe poor wording from me but tried to say the same thing using different words meaning i don’t think it is comparable in either measurements or sound quality...
 
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Feb 15, 2018 at 6:27 PM Post #10,960 of 23,094
Thanks guys, you did cheer me up :)
I guess I'm expecting the H2 to not only sound better than the Mojo, but to sound a whole lot better than it. Not sure if that's a realistic expectation, since the Mojo is already very good.
Is it enough to justify such a high price when I'm only going to use it at home? We'll see.

Well I had a HUGO and I though the Hugo2 was much better. And I never used my Mojo either again as the difference was just too big
 
Feb 15, 2018 at 7:48 PM Post #10,961 of 23,094
Another thing, people talking about Hugo 2 not having enough “drive”.

Objectively, it has way more “drive” than the vast majority of amps near its price point. It’s not a subjective analysis, it’s purely a measurement of output power against load. Hugo 2 can output a very high amount of current, with an extremely low output impedance - it powers the vast majority of headphones (only a minority may need extra power like the Susvara) to ear bleeding levels.

I use the Focal Spirit Classic, which is an incredibly underrated pair of cans - being one the most neutral pair of closed-backs on the market. With Hugo 2, everything one could possibly want is there. Heavy but tight bass slam, organically fluid vocals, airy highs, excellent depth and separation. I rarely go above volume red, not even with Audeze LCD-2 which I have tried with my Hugo 2 - while not as neutral as my Focals, Audeze bass is the deepest on the market, with vanishingly low distortion and perfect slam. I am never even close to maximum volume - which only clips in the white zone, something anyone who wishes to preserve their hearing will never come close to.

So why does using an external amp with certain headphones and certain individuals bias of what good sound is, appear to give their cans more “drive”? The main reason is very simple as Rob has explained; damping factor.

The Hugo 2 has an extremely low output impedance of around 0.025ohms. Which means it can accurately drive cans with impedance ranging from single digits to hundreds of ohms without changing the frequency response of the drivers significantly. The higher the output impedance, the worse the damping factor - which for most cans can result in a bass bump, here’s an example with HD650s:

(Scroll down the links page to the damping factor part)

https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/headphones/measurements/brands-s-se/hd650/

As you can see, higher damping factor results in a bump of mid-bass. As Hugo 2 output impedance is so low, bass from every headphone will be incredibly linear - which may sound great with cans that produce excellent bass, but (subjectively) bad with cans that don’t have the best bass. The proper solution for bad cans would be to buy better/different cans rather than shelling out extra money on yet another box for your system - fix the problem at its source, don’t bandage the wound with an amp.

Sennheiser make the HDV820 which is designed with the intention to add extra warmth and bass to the HD800. Its poor damping factor is successful in giving the HD800 a bit more bass and tilting the overall balance away from its crazy treble peak - it also increases low frequency THD. If the HD800s didn’t have these problems in the first place, they wouldn’t need to tune it in such a way - do you get my drift? If you’re going to consider spend thousands on an amp to go in between the Hugo 2 and your high-end cans, first consider changing your cans. There’s a huge amount of choice on the market and it’s perfectly possible that you have picked the wrong set for your tastes. While there’s no perfect pair of portable transducers - there are some that are much closer to perfect than others.

Another thing of note, sometimes imaging (soundstage) can change when using an amp after the DAC. This is down to analogue bandwidth. Hugo 2 has an extremely wide bandwidth and incredibly phase accuracy - which account for its imaging acuity and depth. Any amp after the Hugo 2 signal will massively reduce bandwidth and phase accuracy, destroying all the original imaging nuance and harmonic separation - in favour of “bigger”, rounded off imaging. This is exactly what the Hugo 2 does when you switch it to the Mojo filter in a way.

Great post! Very explanatory and well written.
Congratulations for that!
Besides Focal Spirit Classic would you recommend any other pair of cans to use with H2?
 
Feb 15, 2018 at 8:45 PM Post #10,962 of 23,094
@RAPGOD said: "Another thing of note, sometimes imaging (soundstage) can change when using an amp after the DAC. This is down to analogue bandwidth. Hugo 2 has an extremely
wide bandwidth and incredibly phase accuracy - which account for its imaging acuity and depth. Any amp after the Hugo 2 signal will massively reduce bandwidth
and phase accuracy, destroying all the original imaging nuance and harmonic separation - in favour of “bigger”, rounded off imaging. This is exactly what
the Hugo 2 does when you switch it to the Mojo filter in a way." The Questyle CMA800R has the wide bandwidth of current mode amplification. I don't need extra amping as a rule. But, has anyone paired H2 with a Questyle amp? As they were designed originally to complement the HD-800. Unless that's not what you meant when talking about bandwidth.
 
Feb 16, 2018 at 7:12 AM Post #10,963 of 23,094
I finally decided to get the Hugo 2, and then I saw these 2 less than enthusiastic reviews:

(He says he actually prefers the Mojo, which I already own)


(Says the H2 is lacking in the low end)


Can someone please cheer me up? :triportsad:


I think he must be playing the wrong selections of music, which says a lot. Or his partnering and testing equipment is lacking, or bright.

My advice to anyone thinking the Hugo2 is lacking in bass is the following. Play, Norah Jones - Who am I to You.

That track has a clear opening bass line, and will sort out any misconceptions. It fits with my experience with the Hugo 2 that sometimes it seems to have a bit much bass. Then sometimes not quite enough. Basically it's the music.
 
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Feb 16, 2018 at 7:13 AM Post #10,964 of 23,094
Not sure which headphones to buy for my Hugo 2,b&w p9, oppo pm 2 or maybe focal elear but I've been down that road with the focal utopia,not driven directly from the Hugo 2 though,probably know all the answers but need to listen to the first two,First one probably to much bass the second one rolled off treble and the elear to shouty in the mid-range,don't know if I can handle the latter as I get so much earache from the Mrs
 
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Feb 16, 2018 at 7:37 AM Post #10,965 of 23,094
anyone doing akg k812 with h2?

I was but now use Utopias instead. I was very happy with the upscaling of SQ with K812's + Hugo 2. The Utopias + Hugo 2 is way better but you pay £££££
 

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