Chord Electronics - Hugo 2 - The Official Thread

[Kentajalli]

delete

 

[546687]

You guys have to stop giving out terrible advice on this thread and do your own research. This isn't the Summit-Fi threads where they give out terrible solutions. It confuses people when you try to state your own subjective opinion as facts.

The fact has been know for years that the worst thing you can do is add an LPS to a Chord DAC. Chord FPGA DACs are modern devices, not traditional DACs.

There is plenty of information available if you search the keyword 'LPS' in the Chord threads. Hand holding from and tagging RW should not be needed. Do the research. RW should not have to provide you links. His reputation should be enough.

I'm surprised RW even replied as it seemed like he has given up replying to LPS questions since he has been doing that for the last 5 years. People are too arrogant, they reply to reply not reply to understand. It seems like I'm one of the few who defend him on this issue, but I'm only here a few times a year.

He's done this LPS research for two decades. If you don't want to believe his research, then move on and don't try to push your own 'Mickey Mouse' solutions.

It's been known too there's a Ferrite BNC scam on the other threads. Plenty of shills whom got discounts trying to push these products. I use to get private messages trying to make a sale. They use RW as their Marketing tool, but instead of paying him a million a year in Marketing fees they just gift him a cable and use his name to sell. Don't fall for that.

The Ferrite BNC scam starts with trying to get you hook on obtaining a LPS. Once you get a LPS, you need to fight off the RFI/EMI. Then that's when they sucker you in to buying their cables. If you have clean power and clean cables, you don't need that Ferrite BNC junk. I don't fault someone for trying to create a 'brand', but I see through that ridiculousness. Especially when they try to bait you via a private message.

Ferrites are an inexact science. Too little or too much can throw it off balance. If you have good power supplies and cables, Ferrites can be eliminated from the equation.

Beginner Level
LPS

Intermediate Level
Battery Packs

Advanced Level
Super Capacitor Passive Power Supply

Then use either Toslink optical or USB optical for the cabling. Move on from cooper cables already.

Bandage Half Measure Solutions include: Coaxial, LPS, Ferrites, etc.

If you do things right, you don't need these bandage half ass solutions.

Stop trying to be influencers. Do your research and focus on your own systems instead of pushing your own agendas.

 

[546687]

Since I'm CIEM-only, I don't plan to go above a Hugo3.

But if I had a HMS, I would power with a Industrial Super Capacitor (These things power electric buses):



The PCB connects to the positive and negative terminals. The PCB is powered by a 'medical-grade' SMPS:



The other end of the PCB, you connect the positive and negative to the DC input of the HMS. Similar to how I connect to a silent NUC w/ batteries @17V:



Please excuse, I haven't taken photos of the solid core DC cable I built yet. I wasn't planning to post here until after Summer.

The SuperCaps run a little under 15V which is safe for Chord devices. I heard amazing things when powering an HMS with SuperCaps.

The PCB automatically isolates from the Mains once it is turned on. Once it is turned off, it charges. No need to disconnect cables. It runs in Class A power mode (pure passive, no mains [isolated]) for about four hours. If you go beyond that, it runs in Class B mode (trickle charging no longer isolated). Still clean, but no 100% pure isolated clean.

If I had a Qutest, I would power with SuperCaps @5V. No regulators, just pure Super Capacitor Passive Power.

So there's a way to balance Mains with Batteries and/or Super Capacitors without the need to constantly plug and unplug. I'll get back in the Summer when I have time to work on these projects in more detail.

You need to separate Passive versus Active Power Supplies. Active Power Supplies can cause noise since it's not one-way. Noise can travel upstream back into the LPS. LPS are only as good as their regulator. Move on from noisy traditional solutions, think clean modern solutions. I hate using car combustible engines versus electric-power vehicles, but that's the easiest way to relate.

I'm trying to move on from Passive Battery Power Supplies to Passive Super Capacitor Power Supplies this year for price-performance reasons. Don't mistaken Battery Power Supplies with Battery Packs. Totally different low impedance performance characteristics. Battery Power Supplies have zero regulators so none of the DC-DC stuff. It's Pure. But I wouldn't mind battery packs for convenience like air travel.

Check back in the Summer. Just want to offer an alternative viewpoint.

I also only run dedicated SQ operating systems (CPU Isolation, OS loaded in RAM) with real-time kernel on all my gear. So Pure Power Supplies + real-time kernel + Chord === lethal combo. That reminds me, it's probably recommended to battery-power or supercap-power the Music Source too as that can cause issues downstream.

Congrats RW on the Mojo2 launch.

I'm planning a Steam Deck + USB-C optical or Thunderbolt optical + Mojo2 for the EOY2022.



Since the Steam Deck is designed from Ground Zero to run Arch Linux, I can dual-boot to my Arch Linux real-time kernel Music Server for portable. But my focus is on Hugo2. Just a plan, we will see. Since the Mojo2 has a neutral character, it's hard to resist. I can add a 8TB NVME down the road.

The Steam Deck is good value too because they sell the hardware at a loss. The money is made on the game software side.

 

[exiliox]

Hey all. I have read many, many, many threads about the Hugo 2. I am tempted to pull the trigger on the H2 but wondered if anyone had insights on how it might pair from an upgrade standpoint. I am currently using:

- Burson Conductor 3X Performance
- Focal Clears (which I love very much and will be using)

Would the H2 make that much of an appreciable difference from the Burson to be worth the cost of upgrading? I know this can be very subjective and tough to answer, just curious about any opinions people had.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Rob Watts]

@Rob Watts a question.
Thanx for your reply regarding Powersupply types and random RF noise.
I was surprised that linear types have more of the noise compared to SMPS types.
Could you possibly point me to some literature on web for further reading.
So far I have been unsuccessful .
thanx.

I don't think you will find any literature on that.

So the situation with audiophile LPS is I haven't seen any that feature RF filters, so they will let any RF noise on the mains through. But a SMPS has to meet EMC regulatory approval, and to pass those tests you need efficient screening, and very capable RF filters on the mains side, and RF filters on the output side. The combination of these filters means that random RF noise from the mains is being reduced unlike all the LPS that I have seen.

To do effective removal of mains RF noise you must use SMD (surface mount) components, and have very complex filters - something nobody actually does. Batteries, so long as they are not connected to the mains, eliminates this issue.

I have already added tons of clip on ferrites and changed to a shorter cable, but the SQ still cannot match what internal battery does. While powerbank has the warmth of the internal battery, but it has a smaller (in wide, height, and depth) soundstage and less ambient clues. May be the charging circuit in Hugo2 generates EMI/RFI that affects the analog side. I don't know. Hoping @Rob Watts can share more of his knowledge.

Are you listening with the power bank isolated from the mains? If so, what you are describing is not something I have experienced, but then with Hugo 2 I charge and then use, so I have never actually used a power bank like that. If indeed it is an issue, then the charging circuit being active could be an explanation.

 

[Melting735]

Hey all. I have read many, many, many threads about the Hugo 2. I am tempted to pull the trigger on the H2 but wondered if anyone had insights on how it might pair from an upgrade standpoint. I am currently using:

- Burson Conductor 3X Performance
- Focal Clears (which I love very much and will be using)

Would the H2 make that much of an appreciable difference from the Burson to be worth the cost of upgrading? I know this can be very subjective and tough to answer, just curious about any opinions people had.

Thanks in advance!

I don't have 3xp, but I had 3xr, composer+soloist 3x before. The dac performance is about on par. Which one is better all depends on your taste, but Burson ones have balanced output.

In terms of DAC/AMP, I will have to say both Burson combo are ahead. They are able to drive almost any headphone on our market amazingly. However, considering about the size and portability of Hugo 2 (you can also attach a 2go with it), we can easily move it in our house and carry it around the world without sacrificing too much in SQ. It was also aethetically designed. That's why I let go my Bursons and kept Hugo2go.

If you do need portability sometimes or have limited space on your desk or hate cable mess, Hugo2 would be a good choice.

 

[546687]

Are you listening with the power bank isolated from the mains? If so, what you are describing is not something I have experienced, but then with Hugo 2 I charge and then use, so I have never actually used a power bank like that. If indeed it is an issue, then the charging circuit being active could be an explanation.

Yeah, it's not a fair comparison if you are not in "Desktop Mode (>24 hours)". Once the Desktop Mode light is enabled, then pull out power bank from Mains and listen. Otherwise, the listening tests are potentially compromised by the charging circuit being active.

After a few hours, turn off the Hugo2 and the Desktop Mode light should enable once it's turned off. That should confirm you were listening in Desktop Mode. YMMV as Desktop Mode can be finnicky.

I never listen during charging as I tried one tyme and the H2 got over-heated to the point of shutdown. I'll try to experiment with a charger during the Summer. Due to Supply Chain issues, I won't get the 5V Super Capacitor up and running until Summertime. The 5V Super Capacitor is 24/7 Continuous Industrial Strength so should make a good clean charger. I have a 5V Hybrid Battery + Super Capacitor, but that's dedicated to powering the USB optical cable.

The Super Capacitor can run at safe range (<15V) 24/7 for HMS purposes:



5V is difficult though as down conversion is usually traditionally needed, but not for 5V Super Capacitor. So looking forward to the cleanest 5V "no regulator, no down conversion" charger currently possible. Crossing fingers it works out.

"In Rob Watts We Trust"

 

[pkny]

Are you listening with the power bank isolated from the mains? If so, what you are describing is not something I have experienced, but then with Hugo 2 I charge and then use, so I have never actually used a power bank like that. If indeed it is an issue, then the charging circuit being active could be an explanation.

Mr. Watts, thank you for the reply. Yes, the power bank is isolated from the main, and Hugo2 is in desktop mode. I suspected the noise could be come from 2Go. I am going to isolate 2Go and do more testing.

 

[Kentajalli]

So the situation with audiophile LPS is I haven't seen any that feature RF filters, so they will let any RF noise on the mains through. But a SMPS has to meet EMC regulatory approval, and to pass those tests you need efficient screening, and very capable RF filters on the mains side, and RF filters on the output side. The combination of these filters means that random RF noise from the mains is being reduced unlike all the LPS that I have seen.

To do effective removal of mains RF noise you must use SMD (surface mount) components, and have very complex filters - something nobody actually does. Batteries, so long as they are not connected to the mains, eliminates this issue.

Thanx.
Since you have been patient with me, I am going to push my luck and take this further a notch.
From your reply I summarize:
- Because SMPS/Charge pumps are inherently noise generators, regulation has been imposed on them to have effective RF filtering at both ends.
This filtering has the added advantage of filtering random RF noise as well.
- Linear power supplies are not noise generators, so no such regulation is imposed on them, manufacturers (so far the ones you have seen) choosen not to implement such filters and the random RF noise gets through from mains.
Here is my question:
1- Powerbanks implementing charge pumps do not need to have such filters built in by regulation (unless for specific use), so chances are, the cheaper ones may not have such filters, right?
2- I am sure you have thought of this and implemented your own filtering on USB power, right?
3- If I was to implement a linear PSU, with similar RF filtering at both ends, together with effective EMI shielding between the mains side and the regulation part, would such a PSU be clean enough to power (say) Hugo2 or Mojo2 in desktop mode?
4- or would a powerbank with a charge pump still be preferable?
This is a learning issue for me.
A declaration: I can not foresee myself using any of my Chord DACs in anyway but charge first, listen after!
But others will.

 

[546687]

Power Conditioners are a bandage solution too. Nothing like Passive (pure battery / super capacitor) that's 100% off Mains.

Lowest ESR (Impedance) performance available. Not Battery Packs, but Pure Battery Power Supplies and Pure Super Capacitor Supplies. Battery Packs for convenience, passive power supplies for performance.

Total Farads for those so called SuperCap LPS: 1. Yes, 1 F so they can market it as a SuperCap solution. There's still a regulator on the frontlines. I cringe on the Summit-Fi threads when they mention they have a SuperCap LPS w/ 1 F. The Manufacturers sure know how to find the target market to milk in the Summit-Fi threads.

TT2 about 60 Farads Total. Industrial Pure Super Capacitors about 20,000 F Total.

Anyways, enough power source talk. It's been fun.

Will patiently wait for SuperCap parts...

 

[Rob Watts]

Thanx.
Since you have been patient with me, I am going to push my luck and take this further a notch.
From your reply I summarize:
- Because SMPS/Charge pumps are inherently noise generators, regulation has been imposed on them to have effective RF filtering at both ends.
This filtering has the added advantage of filtering random RF noise as well.
- Linear power supplies are not noise generators, so no such regulation is imposed on them, manufacturers (so far the ones you have seen) choosen not to implement such filters and the random RF noise gets through from mains.
Here is my question:
1- Powerbanks implementing charge pumps do not need to have such filters built in by regulation (unless for specific use), so chances are, the cheaper ones may not have such filters, right?
2- I am sure you have thought of this and implemented your own filtering on USB power, right?
3- If I was to implement a linear PSU, with similar RF filtering at both ends, together with effective EMI shielding between the mains side and the regulation part, would such a PSU be clean enough to power (say) Hugo2 or Mojo2 in desktop mode?
4- or would a powerbank with a charge pump still be preferable?
This is a learning issue for me.
A declaration: I can not foresee myself using any of my Chord DACs in anyway but charge first, listen after!
But others will.

I wouldn't call SMPS inherently noise generators, more signal generators, as the RF they create are a discrete tone and odd harmonics of that tone. But clearly outputs at 70kHz (plus the harmonics) or so need filtering to meet EMC requirements. The key is that individual tones won't create noise floor modulation in the DAC/amp, unlike random noise. But I am arguing semantics here, so no need to worry.

As to your questions:

1- Powerbanks implementing charge pumps do not need to have such filters built in by regulation (unless for specific use), so chances are, the cheaper ones may not have such filters, right?

DC/DC converters also have filters built in. And when I was designing Hugo I had to use switching regulators (for efficiency) and was stunned when the listening tests revealed they sounded a lot better than linear regulators.

2- I am sure you have thought of this and implemented your own filtering on USB power, right?

Sure.

3- If I was to implement a linear PSU, with similar RF filtering at both ends, together with effective EMI shielding between the mains side and the regulation part, would such a PSU be clean enough to power (say) Hugo2 or Mojo2 in desktop mode? or would a powerbank with a charge pump still be preferable?

Probably not, as the SMPS transformer has much lower capacitance than huge toroidal transformers; moreover the stray magnetic fields are much bigger too. So you would have to make the filters more capable in the linear than the SMPS, as more noise will be getting through.

A power bank would still very much be preferable, as designing a filter that eliminates random RF noise is immensely difficult and complex. Also, the benefit of the powerbank is complete isolation; if a source (or M scaler) is completely isolated from the mains, then ground currents can not flow - and it's the RF ground currents that creates all of the sound quality problems within the DAC.

 

[546687]

It's 2022. Time to move on to robust, clean modern power solutions and optical cables (USB or Toslink).

It's a waste of energy to spend on broken traditional technologies.

I still want to make my TDK cassette work, but I rather focus on CDs. Move on from LPS nostalgia. CDs are flawless, cassette / LPS is broken.

There's like a handful of Chord Pillars:

Don't add an Amp as it reduces Rez and Transparency.

Don't use LPS as it voids warranty and adds noise. Zero benefit of LPS unless you like the added RF distortion.

Other Chord Pillars too I can't remember as I'm out of the game.

Oh, I almost forgot.... It's irresponsible to recommend LPS to Hugo2 users as it voids their warranty.

 

[Widell]

I wouldn't call SMPS inherently noise generators, more signal generators, as the RF they create are a discrete tone and odd harmonics of that tone. But clearly outputs at 70kHz (plus the harmonics) or so need filtering to meet EMC requirements. The key is that individual tones won't create noise floor modulation in the DAC/amp, unlike random noise. But I am arguing semantics here, so no need to worry.

As to your questions:

1- Powerbanks implementing charge pumps do not need to have such filters built in by regulation (unless for specific use), so chances are, the cheaper ones may not have such filters, right?

DC/DC converters also have filters built in. And when I was designing Hugo I had to use switching regulators (for efficiency) and was stunned when the listening tests revealed they sounded a lot better than linear regulators.

2- I am sure you have thought of this and implemented your own filtering on USB power, right?

Sure.

3- If I was to implement a linear PSU, with similar RF filtering at both ends, together with effective EMI shielding between the mains side and the regulation part, would such a PSU be clean enough to power (say) Hugo2 or Mojo2 in desktop mode? or would a powerbank with a charge pump still be preferable?

Probably not, as the SMPS transformer has much lower capacitance than huge toroidal transformers; moreover the stray magnetic fields are much bigger too. So you would have to make the filters more capable in the linear than the SMPS, as more noise will be getting through.

A power bank would still very much be preferable, as designing a filter that eliminates random RF noise is immensely difficult and complex. Also, the benefit of the powerbank is complete isolation; if a source (or M scaler) is completely isolated from the mains, then ground currents can not flow - and it's the RF ground currents that creates all of the sound quality problems within the DAC.

Hi Rob and thanks for your dedicated contributions hear on headfi.

My Question to above as a complete novice is that getting a powerbank for TT2/HMS and H2 in desktop mode would be better than expensive BNC cables to eliminate any potential RF noise? Or am I mixing apples and oranges?

 

[chesebert]

Looks like no amount of technical communication can overcome preference for LPS over SMPS for some people. It's really more of a religion at this point - the power of believe.

 

[exiliox]

I don't have 3xp, but I had 3xr, composer+soloist 3x before. The dac performance is about on par. Which one is better all depends on your taste, but Burson ones have balanced output.

In terms of DAC/AMP, I will have to say both Burson combo are ahead. They are able to drive almost any headphone on our market amazingly. However, considering about the size and portability of Hugo 2 (you can also attach a 2go with it), we can easily move it in our house and carry it around the world without sacrificing too much in SQ. It was also aethetically designed. That's why I let go my Bursons and kept Hugo2go.

If you do need portability sometimes or have limited space on your desk or hate cable mess, Hugo2 would be a good choice.

Thank you for the response, Melting. I suppose if what you wrote is true, I would have go further up the Chord line which is a total financial impossibility; even the Hugo 2 would have been a possible divorce-inducing amount of money to spend.

Plus, I suspect we are within a year or so of the Hugo 3. I feel like I have my grail headphones in the Clears, and as much as I love the Burson (and I do) it still feels as though something is … lacking? It seems like a company like Chord has that certain something special. One day maybe.

Anyway…thanks again for taking to time to leave a reply.