[801evan]

Hifiman literally sells a premium speaker amp just for pairing with the Susvara lol

But I'm not looking for an argument here, btw. Just want to dispute the "Dave can drive any headphone' mantra that pops up here from time to time. And it isn't about volume, it's about driving the headphones to their full capability. The Dave simply cannot.

Yep. Made to order. Which means they aren't even confident in it. It's made for people whose chain has a high noise floor. HFM managed to capitalize on people's not-so-great chain build.

 

[number1sixerfan]

Yep. Made to order. Which means they aren't even confident in it. It's made for people whose chain has a high noise floor. HFM managed to capitalize on people's not-so-great chain build.

Like I said, not looking for an argument. You got it.

 

[rkt31]

Hifiman literally sells a premium speaker amp just for pairing with the Susvara lol

But I'm not looking for an argument here, btw. Just want to dispute the "Dave can drive any headphone' mantra that pops up here from time to time. And it isn't about volume, it's about driving the headphones to their full capability. The Dave simply cannot.

Did you know to drive a headphone or any driver you need current and voltage. Voltage is plenty with dave and current is decided by output impedance. Lower the output impedance more current it is able to supply on demand. And I don't need to tell about the output impedance of dave. In fact as rob watts say dave drives your headphones correctly because of extremely low output impedance. It is not affected by the passages requiring more current for which impedance dips. What more planars don't have variable impedance anyway. So it's a myth that dave doesn't drive susvara or any other planar. Since headphone are driven correctly so they sound fast and lean to which some people think not properly driven.

 

[801evan]

Same bit-perfect source (no volume adjustments), same DAVE, same headphones, same song, -5dB to +20dB difference in listening volume compared to me.

What's wild too is that I listen to the lcd4 at -12dB, stealth at -10dB and susvara at -7dB. Which is a smaller variance vs listening levels of different individuals.

 

[genefruit]

What's wild too is that I listen to the lcd4 at -12dB, stealth at -10dB and susvara at -7dB. Which is a smaller variance vs listening levels of different individuals.

The Susvara at 83 and Stealth at 86-87 are in alignment. The LCD4 seems off. Since it’s 97, I would have expected -21.

 

[801evan]

I think this debate of whether DAVE can drive specific low-sensitivity headphones is confusing to most people and I think actually, everybody is right.

I bring my DAVE to the local head-fi meet sometimes and what I've found is that people listen to music (the same songs) with the same headphones at completely different volumes. I would say it varies by 25dB. I was shocked that a couple of people listen at 5dB less than me and a few others at 20dB louder than me (which I thought was painful to my ears). In fact, I would say most would listen at 5-10dB louder than me.

Hence, I'm not surprised when some people say they found that DAVE can't drive Susvara or Stealth while others say they can (since DAVE would start digitally clipping at +4dB). It comes down to how loud you like to listen.

That said, another thing I noticed at the local head-fi meets is that sometimes, DAVE can easily drive a headphone (even at 20dB louder than my preferred volume) but some people just like their preferred amplifier's (distorted?) sound. Like some headphone amplifier has higher output impedances so the bass would sound different with their low impedance headphones. But honestly, that's a rarer scenario. I found the former scenario to be much more prevalent.

I can't comment on Stealth or even Susvara since I've never heard them. But I can say that even for HE1000v2, which is more sensitive than Susvara, my DAVE can drive the HE1000v2 at comfortable volumes although occasionally, it'll be close to maxing out. But I know that at least 80% of my fellow local head-fi meet members would find that DAVE is not powerful enough to drive the HE1000v2 because they prefer to listen at a louder volume. I strongly suspect Susvara would be even more so.

I've noticed consistently that the Dave needs 24 hours minimum warm up time. The other indicator is it should be warm enough where hovering my hand above the chassis , I should feel the heat wave. If it's a bit under, Susvara can sound peaky and strident. It's something worth mentioning when doing meets to compensate for a cold Dave.

 

[801evan]

The Susvara at 83 and Stealth at 86-87 are in alignment. The LCD4 seems off. Since it’s 97, I would have expected -21.

It can depend on the setup and track actually. The 4 can be peaky so if the Stealth is at -10dB, the lcd4 can be around -17dB to -15dB. I baked in an EQ profile for the lcd4 to have it closely match the susvara and I can drive it louder since it's smoother. I didn't do -3dB pre-gain as I lose transparency all the time. But what was more effective was having the cellphone of my partner off or when they are away. I usually have my cellphone, router/wifi, fridge and induction stove off during listening sessions. But it was that lone cellphone turned on that was giving off the peaks on the 4. Susvara and Stealth could afford that one cellphone to be on, for the sake of our relationship. In my best case scenario, the 4khz dip becomes more apparent with the 7khz peak gone so it's part of the reason why I can drive it slightly louder.

 

[jlbrach]

I'd be more disappointed with a fried susvara due to some bad advice of running a speaker amp. I've seen at least 8 fried susvaras due to being used with a speaker amp. And like a cult, the speaker amp users says to keep on going because Hifiman just has poor QC.

Here's another question for the big speaker amp fans, if the power requirement of the Susvara is indeed so, why didn't Hifiman rated it as so? My method have successfully aligned to the specs Susvara gave. If the Susvara was designed for a speaker amp, why does it tiptoe in such a small window of sounding great with lots of power and breaking at that level?

you might want to take a look at the amp that hifiman designed for sale with and use with the susvara before making these silly comments

 

[801evan]

you might want to take a look at the amp that hifiman designed for sale with and use with the susvara before making these silly comments

You might wanna see they don't keep stock.

 

[x RELIC x]

Great post. I wish HeadFi had additional profile fields for things like age, listening volume, hearing loss, music genre, tonal preferences, ear/canal size (for IEM and tip recommendations) etc. As the community has grown in recent years, I’ve found it increasingly difficult to understand reviews because few provide enough context. Members like “Romaz“ and “aaf evo“ seemingly have the ability to identify/pinpoint the smallest flaws and accurately describe their perception of sound. For future reference, I only listen to classical recordings using the Focal Utopia with the Blu MkII and DAVE at -30dB which is very low. If I were to raise the volume to “teenangster levels” and listen to a genre like EDM, my opinions of the same equipment would probably change entirely.

I also listen with the Utopia from the DAVE at around -30, album depending… I’m shocked when I see others listen much louder.

 

[bdjul]

You might wanna see they don't keep stock.

801evan, did you listen susvara with any other equipment then Dave?

 

[801evan]

Good question.

I've tried it with the ifi diablo and it sounds best on eco mode (low gain) balanced. I'd rather have it on eco mode SE vs normal gain SE as there is a perceived higher noiser floor and distortion. My ifi diablo is modded to run on external power with multi stage filtering. On stock battery, there's too much distortion that the details and the blacks gets buried so it gives a very grey presentation. Higher gain doesn't fix the problem. But you can see how an external amp can be assumed to be the solution. Point being, you can see power quality and chain quality is the ideal approach. Part of the reason of why a beefy amp may comparatively sound better is because you are paying for the better quality psu, not for the higher output.

I tried it on the Hugo 2 and it can drive it. Here's my quick take on a phone camera capture on:
https://m.facebook.com/groups/236162336799519/permalink/1355107498238325/

I asked a playlist from a tt2 + susvara owner who claims the tt2 can't drive the sus as it was clipping. So I played the tracks and they all passed with flying colors on the Hugo 2 at a volume louder than I can tolerate and still pull off the sub bass. This proves that it's a chain issue and nothing about the Chord amplifier.

I didn't bother trying it on the dacmagic 200m since the Stealth scaled better with the Phonitor One as an external amp where I was hearing more refinement. Dacmagic is 300mW @ 32ohm, >65mW @ 150ohm so I know I'm pushing my luck and wouldn't pretend it can drive it.

Edit: also Dave straight to the wall doesn't make the Susvara sound good. I have everything independently behind a line conditioner.

 

[Glossator]

I also listen with the Utopia from the DAVE at around -30, album depending… I’m shocked when I see others listen much louder.

... I started at around that level, but having been through some of the 'refinement' hoops discussed in these pages, seem to have settled at -41 to -43!

 

[801evan]

... I started at around that level, but having been through some of the 'refinement' hoops discussed in these pages, seem to have settled at -41 to -43!

Wonderful. Exactly. When the chain is refined it lowers the noise floor and one will need less volume to counter the noise. Then after further refinement, increased smoothness will be achieved and you can afford to crank it up a bit and have less ear fatigue.

 

[TheAttorney]

I've noticed consistently that the Dave needs 24 hours minimum warm up time. The other indicator is it should be warm enough where hovering my hand above the chassis , I should feel the heat wave. If it's a bit under, Susvara can sound peaky and strident. It's something worth mentioning when doing meets to compensate for a cold Dave.

A number of people (Rob included) have said in the past that DAVE requires no warm-up time (or even burn-in time). I've found this not to be the case.
All my hifi is put into standby overnight. From "cold" immediately after standby, I find that DAVE sounds a touch dark, which helpfully hides a multitude of HF sins, which is not unpleasant, but it also hides a level of fine detail. Over the next hour it swings into a slight over-brightness and then gradually settles down. There are other variables when listening over a long period, but I'm satisfied that I can hear no further improvement after around 5-8 hours. This effect is more subtle than other hifi components I've owned, but it's enough IMO to unbalance a well-balanced system.

Regarding listening levels on my DAVE > HEKse, this is set between -40 to -42dB for most modern recordings. Max of -43dB for the loudest ones, and min of about -30dB for the quietest classical recordings. I've measured this with a soundmeter to be in the 70 to 75dB range at my ears. At meets, I cringe when I see how loud some others set their listening levels. I politely say something like "Wow, that's much louder than I'm used to". When what I really mean is "You are a recklessly stupid fool. You should be old enough now to know that this will eventually permanently damage your hearing". Anyway, I agree with the comments that listening volume is a big factor in peoples' differing reactions to the same hifi equipment.