[Hooster]

The elitism on this thread is off the charts though.

What thread do you think you are in anyway? This is not some $100 dac/headphone amp combo we are talking about. It is perfectly natural to discuss ancillary components to use with DAVE. People who own a DAVE are not going to have an any problem spending a few thousands of $ on an amp, are they? You can hardly call it elitist, especially if these components are cheaper than a DAVE. You could call this entire thread elitist if you like, simply based on the price of a DAVE but we already know that.

 

[Hooster]

You're just assuming i haven't tried a lot of the stuff i'm talking about based on what exactly?. I have tried streamers and cables and other popular suggestions and my conclusions are based on that. I didn't even buy Dave before i tested it out of a 30k Naim vs a Node2i to see this difference the streamer makes. With Stellias as well, not just my Z1R ,since people like to knock on them. If i thought it was true i would've just gone for the Bartok.
Funny thing is even on the Bartok thread people suggested using it out of a different streamer since it would improve things. There's no end in sight.
Why would i keep wasting my time testing things that have no scientific basis ? Like a 5k headphone amp for 32 ohm headphones. I struggle to find a single person that recommends it, not even the dealer who sells them. If you find a joy of use with a certain amp, hell even if you like turning the volume know more than on Dave that's fine by me, i've had my fair share of superficial purchases and i don't see much changing anytime soon. I just want to know what i'm getting beforehand.

You try streamers and cables and you have now stopped doing that because "Why would i keep wasting my time testing things that have no scientific basis?" You want to know what you get beforehand but you won't waste your time testing things? Is there any real scientific basis for a claim that cable A sounds better than cable B or that streamer X sounds better than streamer Y? I would love to know, especially with respect to the cables. You could also say that there is no scientific basis for one well made dac sounding better than another. If you want audio science, then this is the place: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php

"Like a 5k headphone amp for 32 ohm headphones." So, are you saying that as long as the amp can drive the headphones nothing else matters? A $300 amp could easily drive 98% or so of the headphones on the market. Are you saying that spending more than that is a waste of money? Most people here will tell you that there is a lot more to an amp beyond the primitive ability of being able to drive a headphone to the level you listen at. I myself will say that based on my own experience. I normally listen at levels that my phone could drive my headphones to but I much prefer using an amp. Is there any scientific basis to this? Not that I am aware of, it just sounds better to me and that is what it all boils down to, does it not?

Is there an "end in sight"? Absolutely not, you can move forward, backward and sideways but there is no end in sight. If there was we could all just pack up and go home. The party would be over.

 

[Articnoise]

You try streamers and cables and you have now stopped doing that because "Why would i keep wasting my time testing things that have no scientific basis?" You want to know what you get beforehand but you won't waste your time testing things? Is there any real scientific basis for a claim that cable A sounds better than cable B or that streamer X sounds better than streamer Y? I would love to know, especially with respect to the cables. You could also say that there is no scientific basis for one well made dac sounding better than another. If you want audio science, then this is the place: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php

"Like a 5k headphone amp for 32 ohm headphones." So, are you saying that as long as the amp can drive the headphones nothing else matters? A $300 amp could easily drive 98% or so of the headphones on the market. Are you saying that spending more than that is a waste of money? Most people here will tell you that there is a lot more to an amp beyond the primitive ability of being able to drive a headphone to the level you listen at. I myself will say that based on my own experience. I normally listen at levels that my phone could drive my headphones to but I much prefer using an amp. Is there any scientific basis to this? Not that I am aware of, it just sounds better to me and that is what it all boils down to, does it not?

Is there an "end in sight"? Absolutely not, you can move forward, backward and sideways but there is no end in sight. If there was we could all just pack up and go home. The party would be over.

You are spot on except the line about most people here on Summit-fi understand that its lot more to a good amp beyond the primitive ability of being able to drive a headphone to the high loudness. I read claims like "it can play at hear splitting volumes" or similar almost every day and that’s from people that been members for many years.

 

[adrianm]

You try streamers and cables and you have now stopped doing that because "Why would i keep wasting my time testing things that have no scientific basis?" You want to know what you get beforehand but you won't waste your time testing things? Is there any real scientific basis for a claim that cable A sounds better than cable B or that streamer X sounds better than streamer Y? I would love to know, especially with respect to the cables. You could also say that there is no scientific basis for one well made dac sounding better than another. If you want audio science, then this is the place: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php

"Like a 5k headphone amp for 32 ohm headphones." So, are you saying that as long as the amp can drive the headphones nothing else matters? A $300 amp could easily drive 98% or so of the headphones on the market. Are you saying that spending more than that is a waste of money? Most people here will tell you that there is a lot more to an amp beyond the primitive ability of being able to drive a headphone to the level you listen at. I myself will say that based on my own experience. I normally listen at levels that my phone could drive my headphones to but I much prefer using an amp. Is there any scientific basis to this? Not that I am aware of, it just sounds better to me and that is what it all boils down to, does it not?

Is there an "end in sight"? Absolutely not, you can move forward, backward and sideways but there is no end in sight. If there was we could all just pack up and go home. The party would be over.

I don't just mean volume, i mean driver control as well. I've been there as well, it's worse than here, similar but opposing views. People who understand some of the science and draw superficial conclusions. For analogue cables the only thing i can think of is conductivity, for streamers say it's RF injection. With my old Sony Dac the source did make a bigger difference using optical, Dave not so much. Tested them both side by side with the Naim and Node.
Well i do want the party to be over. I'm just interested in the forward.
Honestly the Mojo i've used for 3 years is so good that Hugo 2 and TT2, even with M-scaler weren't enough to convince me to upgrade, but Dave was such a different animal that price became almost irrelevant when i heard it. That's the magnitude of difference i'm looking for. Or at least something close, but it probably won't be around for a while.

 

[Ciggavelli]

I don't just mean volume, i mean driver control as well. I've been there as well, it's worse than here, similar but opposing views. People who understand some of the science and draw superficial conclusions. For analogue cables the only thing i can think of is conductivity, for streamers say it's RF injection. With my old Sony Dac the source did make a bigger difference using optical, Dave not so much. Tested them both side by side with the Naim and Node.
Well i do want the party to be over. I'm just interested in the forward.
Honestly the Mojo i've used for 3 years is so good that Hugo 2 and TT2, even with M-scaler weren't enough to convince me to upgrade, but Dave was such a different animal that price became almost irrelevant when i heard it. That's the magnitude of difference i'm looking for. Or at least something close, but it probably won't be around for a while.

Next level exists, but it’s very out of reach for nearly everybody (myself included). I’m talking MSB Reference and Select Dacs, DcS Rossini and Vivaldi dacs, etc.

One day I hope to be able to afford a Vilvali-level digital stack. But I need to win the lotto first...

 

[adrianm]

Next level exists, but it’s very out of reach for nearly everybody (myself included). I’m talking MSB Reference and Select Dacs, DcS Rossini and Vivaldi dacs, etc.

One day I hope to be able to afford a Vilvali-level digital stack. But I need to win the lotto first...

Do you honestly think the delta is that audible with headphones? Is the Bartok in that next level category?

 

[Ciggavelli]

Do you honestly think the delta is that audible with headphones? Is the Bartok in that next level category?

Yes I think the delta can be that audible, but you need the right headphones. I know you probably think it’s nonsense and that I’m just saying you don’t have transparent enough headphones, but it’s kind of true. You aren’t going to hear as big of difference if your headphones aren’t up to task....

 

[adrianm]

Yes I think the delta can be that audible, but you need the right headphones. I know you probably think it’s nonsense and that I’m just saying you don’t have transparent enough headphones, but it’s kind of true. You aren’t going to hear as big of difference if your headphones aren’t up to task....

No, i'm sure you're right, i just said i consider the Z1R top tier for closed backs. The only other contenders would be Stellias which i found worse both in imaging and soundstage, not to mention the delta in the bass, which i love about the Z1R. That said i'm sure some TOTL open backs would be a huge step forward but i'm limited by the fact that i work from home with my gf and they would be too distracting for her. That said we're buying a new place next week but it will be around a year and a half before it's finalized.
I'll look into some Final Audio D8k pro, Empyreans, or whatever comes out by then.
I suggested buying the apartment right after i got Dave and she asked me straight away if this was because i wanted open backs.

 

[JohnFerrier]

When sound is "fine-tuned" should I consider temperature, pressure, the direction of the wind?

 

[JaZZ]

When sound is "fine-tuned" should I consider temperature, pressure, the direction of the wind?

Hi John. I know you from the Sound-Science forum.

 

[JohnFerrier]

Hi John. I know you from the Sound-Science forum.

Hi JaZZ. Hope you are well !

 

[Mikey99]

No, i'm sure you're right, i just said i consider the Z1R top tier for closed backs. The only other contenders would be Stellias which i found worse both in imaging and soundstage, not to mention the delta in the bass, which i love about the Z1R. That said i'm sure some TOTL open backs would be a huge step forward but i'm limited by the fact that i work from home with my gf and they would be too distracting for her. That said we're buying a new place next week but it will be around a year and a half before it's finalized.
I'll look into some Final Audio D8k pro, Empyreans, or whatever comes out by then.
I suggested buying the apartment right after i got Dave and she asked me straight away if this was because i wanted open backs.

I recently listened to the ZMF Verite Closed and Focal Stellia. To my ears the VC clearly bests the Stellia, and is the first closed-back headphone I have heard that competes with TOTL open backs. I ended up getting a pair. They work very nicely direct from the Dave as well, very enjoyable. The Dave/VC combo is getting a lot of head time, even compared to my Dave/AIC-10/AB1266 combo.

 

[adrianm]

I recently listened to the ZMF Verite Closed and Focal Stellia. To my ears the VC clearly bests the Stellia, and is the first closed-back headphone I have heard that competes with TOTL open backs. I ended up getting a pair. They work very nicely direct from the Dave as well, very enjoyable. The Dave/VC combo is getting a lot of head time, even compared to my Dave/AIC-10/AB1266 combo.

I have been tempted by ZMF's before but they look pretty heavy and uncomfortable. I'm not a fan of the looks and would usually steer clear of small companies since quality control is generally poor.
That's good to hear though, i'll seriously consider a pair after the M-scaler if i get an itch to upgrade again.
Problem is they're pretty expensive for some "home made " headphones and i'd have no place to audition or even order them at the moment.

 

[MatW]

In the headphone world, I would not consider ZMF a 'small company', but rather as one of the leaders. In terms of quality control and service, many 'larger' companies have a thing or two to learn from them.

They come warmly recommended, and I think 99% of ZMF customers would concur. Auditioning can be a problem indeed, but ordering is possible from the ZMF website.

 

[adrianm]

In the headphone world, I would not consider ZMF a 'small company', but rather as one of the leaders. In terms of quality control and service, many 'larger' companies have a thing or two to learn from them.

They come warmly recommended, and I think 99% of ZMF customers would concur. Auditioning can be a problem indeed, but ordering is possible from the ZMF website.

Problem is customs and vat would add around 55% to the retail price. I guess i could try to contact a dealer in Germany or the Uk at some point. I'll check the VC thread to see how it compares to the Z1R though.