[rgs9200m]

Thanks for the great link! That's new to me and very useful. Best to you.

 

[romaz]

   
thats quite the statement
 
so you could say it goes something like this
 
1. Mojo 80% £399
2. Hugo TT 90% £2,995
3. Dave 100% £7,995

I don't think this is a good way to assess a DAC.  Only a fool would buy the DAVE based on this kind of a scale.  Once you get to a certain level of audio gear, it would be misguided to think that a component exists that is 2x better for half the price.  It never works that way.  Even though we should assess the performance criteria of a DAC or any other component in objective and quantitative terms, in the end, I think we buy a piece of equipment for its qualitative properties.
 
As the owner of my medical practice, I am responsible for hiring my employees.  For a certain position, I will often get many applicants and of the lot, at least on paper, most appear competent.  In fact, they are all technically qualified as far as educational requirements go or they wouldn't be applying.  In the end, why does one person get hired and not another?  It's generally not because the others made any gross mistakes during the interview, it's usually because one person was just a little better in the areas that were most important.  Maybe that person made better eye contact, appeared more confident and self-assured or offered just the right inflection as they answered a certain question.  These are little things that are difficult to measure on a number scale but these are the qualitative intangibles that sometimes allow me to better glean the character of that individual.  If I am to carry on a long-term professional relationship with this individual and entrust that person with the care of my patients, it often comes down to the little things they do that aren't part of their position's job description that allow me to value that person above the rest.  
 
I have a good friend who is a pretty good artist.  In fact, I'm selling her short because she is an excellent artist.  Technically speaking, she is amazing and she can probably reproduce the Mona Lisa to within 95% accuracy.  From a distance, I bet she could fool most into thinking they were looking at the real thing.  Does that mean her version of the Mona Lisa is just as good or good enough?  Try telling that to the Musée du Louvre.
 
In my younger days, I used to race cars.  Specifically, I raced VW GTIs and eventually Mini Coopers.  There was a time when I was an excellent race car driver.  I was trained well and I knew all the proper driving principles.  While it's been years since I've raced competitively, I still enjoy spirited driving.  Last year, a good friend who still actively races accompanied me to Germany for some spirited driving.  We went to Nürburgring and drove the Nordschleife in a rented Nissan GT-R.  My fastest time was about 10-1/2 minutes.  I was pretty proud of myself.  We each rode shotgun as the other drove and so I was able to witness my friend's performance.  He handily beat my best time and he clocked in at about 8-1/2 minutes.  We used the same principles as we drove but he anticipated the turns better than I did.  He read the apexes better than I did.  He was aggressive at all the right times and backed off at all the right times.  He did all the little things a bit better than I did.  That's what it came down to.  Based on our times, you could say he is a 20% better race car driver than I am but you have to understand that in racing terms, a 2-minute gap is an eternity.  
 
What separates a great DAC from a good DAC?  All DACs will make a violin or a trumpet sound like what they are.  With even a $30 DAC, no one will mistake Elvis Presley from Elvis Costello.  All DACs today are fairly competent and so why should anyone spend even $600 for a Mojo let alone $13k for a DAVE?  You guessed it, it's the little things and often, the differences are way smaller than 10-20%.  It's often about micro-details and micro-dynamics.  Bob Katz, in his book "Mastering audio: the art and the science," defines micro-dynamics as music's rhythmic expression, integrity or bounce.  It has also been described as the fine shadings within a dynamic envelope.  For example, to hear the wobble of the skin of a tympani after the tympani is struck, when the blat of a muted trumpet has an internal echo, or when you hear the neighboring strings of piano when a key is struck.  It doesn't take a golden ear to hear these things, you just have to know what to listen for and your equipment has to be revealing enough but once you hear it, you crave it and you notice it when it's missing.  If enough of these things are missing, as small as they are, the presentation quickly starts to feel like an imposter.
 
I don't consider myself an audiophile because I own a DAC that's 20% better than another person's.  I would guess that you didn't buy your HD800 because it's 58.75% better than the stock earbuds that came with your smartphone.  For most of us, I would hazard a guess that it's about the music and how experiencing a piece of music that lasts only a few minutes can have an impact that can last so much longer.   As a frequent patron of live events, my ears are unfortunately eternally spoiled and consequently, the reference my audio equipment must measure against is one that they will never meet but every so often, you come across a special piece of equipment that takes you that much closer.  For me, the DAVE accomplishes this better than any DAC I have experienced thus far, regardless of price.  In one area or another, it may be only a few percent better than another DAC but based on how it excels with my most important metric, that quality that tricks your brain into thinking you have been transported to another time and place, I consider the DAVE to be an unqualified bargain.  
 

 

[Toolman]

^ totally agreed. As an owner of a business in the service industry, I often have to explain to my clients that 90% (level) of the work will typically take up 10% of the time/cost to achieve, but it is always the last 10% of the work quality that will take up 90% of the time to accomplish.

The same can be apply to a product such as DAVE...it is often expensive and technically challenging to squeeze out the very last bit of "perfection" 

If only everything in life is as simple and as linear as a graph could be  

 

[Crgreen]

As a matter of interest, is anyone planning on trying the soon to be released PS Audion LANrover with the Dave?

http://www.psaudio.com/products/lanrover-usb-transporter/#tab-description

 

[drabbish]

looking at reviews with music servers with the dave, would a aurliac aries mini sound the same as a aurender w20 feeding the dave? seems like everyone it saying yes? 

 

[Audiolic]

Dave is an overpriced dream for 99.99999999999/100 of us... 
 
Most of us are waiting for a black dockable balanced HUGO 2 at same price as first HUGO but near Dave SQ
 
if not.. we will go elsewhere like audio gd, schiit or wait for new sabre chip dacs..

 

[maxh22]

Dave is an overpriced dream for 99.99999999999/100 of us... 

Most of us are waiting for a black dockable balanced HUGO 2 at same price as first HUGO but near Dave SQ

if not.. we will go elsewhere like audio gd, schiit or wait for new sabre chip dacs..

What would be cool is a Dave lite at a 6k price point

 

[gndixon]

Speaking of overpricing, the Dave is now about $2500 more in the USA than in the UK even with the 20% VAT. If you take out the 20% VAT then its $4-5k more in the US right now.
 
I know (as an ex-pat) the UK gets screwed all the time in the other direction so I know its disingenuous to complain, but I would love to get a Dave in the USA. Maybe the next time I'm in the UK...

 

[bigfatpaulie]

  Speaking of overpricing, the Dave is now about $2500 more in the USA than in the UK even with the 20% VAT. If you take out the 20% VAT then its $4-5k more in the US right now.
 
I know (as an ex-pat) the UK gets screwed all the time in the other direction so I know its disingenuous to complain, but I would love to get a Dave in the USA. Maybe the next time I'm in the UK...

 
 
I'm sorry what?  I missed that.
 
Up here in Canada it can be hard to hear American talk about exchange rates.  I must have snow in ears.  

 

[icebear]

Originally Posted by romaz /img/forum/go_quote.gif
...
As a frequent patron of live events, my ears are unfortunately eternally spoiled and consequently, the reference my audio equipment must measure against is one that they will never meet but every so often, you come across a special piece of equipment that takes you that much closer.  For me, the DAVE accomplishes this better than any DAC I have experienced thus far, regardless of price.  In one area or another, it may be only a few percent better than another DAC but based on how it excels with my most important metric, that quality that tricks your brain into thinking you have been transported to another time and place, I consider the DAVE to be an unqualified bargain.  
 

 
Slightly off topic in ref to your racing experience:
https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/products/porsche-panamera-nuerburgring-nordschleife-record-2016-12683.html
 
Great post and I concur with your experience of the live event being the benchmark of reproduction.
Living the NYC metro area I visit concert (Jazz & classic) on a regular basis and e.g. I have seen (and listened to) Janine Jansen performing Prokofiev's violin sonata in Zankel Hall (Carnegie Hall's smaller basement performance space). I was lucky enough to have a front row seat and was about 10 ft away from her. I have a recording of her playing the same piece but not a recording of the performance I attended. When I listen to my home set up the only difference is that I was actually closer live than the impression of the recording. Otherwise this is as good as it gets, I close my eyes and I feel transformed into the performance. Good enough in my book ... no Dave though.

 

[romaz]

   
Slightly off topic in ref to your racing experience:
https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/products/porsche-panamera-nuerburgring-nordschleife-record-2016-12683.html
 

Wow, 7 minutes, 39 seconds.  That's seriously good.

 

[Audiolic]

Personally i'm not interested in buying 5 2000++$ dacs when i listen to only one at the time. 
 
i only need one portable and dockable hugo 2..
 
i'm waiting for the new revision hoping it will be near the dave.. in SQ..
 
---
even then when i'm djing/live i need 2 stereo high SQ dacs at the same time for cueing.. so better would be 2 stereo dac with line out outputs with one that can be routed into one headphone amp + low latency asio drivers..
 
with this i wouldnt need to bring an RME soundcard + the hugo 2.. (even then with just the hugo+RME, i would only have one stereo from hugo and the other from RME..
 
so wouldnt work with DJ mixers who need 2 SAME SQ stereo inputs.. 
 
I would need to use the internal mixer of traktor and RME headphone amp and dac for cueing and Hugo for the room sound..
 
--
 
again i have to compromise and buy 100 piece of gears because no companies is intelligent enough to understand the need of home studios /dj/live artists..
 
the only one that is near is antellope zen tour sound card.. but even then it's too big and cannot be use as portable dac/amp for music listening

 

[raypin]

Mmm.....it is not overpriced. It is the price tag of half a mid-tier honda civic where I live. Honda sold thousands of civics last year where I live. It just depends on what you expect to get out of it. Another damn car to pollute the environment or a Chord Dave to make your music alive.

Point is if you can afford to buy an ordinary car, you can afford to pay for a Chord Dave. You just have to give this hobby the priority it deserves. Otherwise, why are you even here?

 

[Audiolic]

Mmm.....it is not overpriced. It is the price tag of half a mid-tier honda civic where I live. Honda sold thousands of civics last year where I live. It just depends on what you expect to get out of it. Another damn car to pollute the environment or a Chord Dave to make your music alive.

Point is if you can afford to buy an ordinary car, you can afford to pay for a Chord Dave. You just have to give this hobby the priority it deserves. Otherwise, why are you even here?

the honda cost a lot more to test, make, produce than a chord dave all on one board mostly no analog pieces with good algorithm and design solution..
 
i'm not denying the work and SQ of chord dave here.. just facts that's its overpriced... even at 6000 it would be overpriced from a creation cost perspective point of view.
 
it's not about priorities or hobbies..
 
an audiogd master 7 or master 11 cost 5 time or more to produce than chord dave and cost 10 time less.  
 
just open the chord dave case and compare the inside to this

 
yes i know in the end only the SQ is important but i'm not that inclined on giving 9/10 of the price of a 12 000$ product to the company owners..  but hey go for it if you dont mind the donation =) .. personnaly i'll wait for a hugo 2 in the 2000$ range or ill buy elsewhere.

 

[PATB]

The DAVE is cheaper than the MSB select, Nagra HD, etc. and, from reviews, comes with an excellent headphone amp.  Therefore, relatively speaking, it is actually a bargain in the audiophile land.  Heck, it is probably priced low.  The pricing could have been $20K and includes the stand whether you like it or not.
 
This is the audiophile hobby, where a $500 HD650 is considered cheap, and the DAVE seems to deliver the promise unlike other products in the hobby.  Back in the early days of head-fi, somebody commented that $1000 is all you need to get a decent setup.  Everything past that is a game of inches: a little improvement here, a little improvement there...and each improvement costs 4x the original price.  And yet, a lot of us are still in the summit-fi forum. 
 
I would buy a DAVE if I had the funds.