CHORD ELECTRONICS DAVE

[romaz]

Back to my Mojo vs DAVE comparison, my brain break-in (or brain washing from reading these posts ) is settling in. DAVE is better than Mojo and shines on well recorded music; however, Mojo is still a damn good unit and hard to beat at the asking price.

Hifi is one of the hobbies where the law of disminishing return clearly applies. We pay dearly just to squeeze the last few drops from music. I used to have B&W 802D's before my Focal Stella's. Are the Stella's better than the 802D's? You bet! Are they 6 times (based on price) better than 802D's? Not a chance! Is DAVE better than Mojo? Of course! Is DAVE 20 times better than Mojo? I will let you guys be the judge on that.

I can't help but think there is something in your system that is preventing the DAVE from distancing itself from the Mojo.  As good as the Mojo is, I never once questioned how much better one was over the other.  As good as the DAVE is on headphones, it is even better on speakers.  As the Mojo is battery driven and the DAVE is not, could you possibly have a problem with the quality of your mains supply?  Do you have a dedicated circuit and a good ground?   Are you plugged into a power conditioner or distribution block?  If yes, consider plugging straight into the wall.  If you are plugged straight into the wall, consider plugging into a power conditioner.  Consider trying a different mains cable than the Cullens Crossover you are using.  Are you using equivalent interconnects between Mojo and DAVE?  Have you tried a USB source yet?
 
I say this because I am currently communicating via PM with someone who approached me with concerns about the SQ he was getting out of his DAVE.  While living in Italy, he told me everything was fine and since moving to Washington, D.C, all of a sudden, his DAVE was no longer sounding good.  We eventually figured out he had a bad distribution block.

 

[106099]

Has anyone replaced the stock power cord with their DAVE, and if so, with what cord?

Thanks!

 
Tried a bunch of power cord and ended using Shunyata Sigma Analog 1.75m 15A
For me, I get as close to the sound from my turntable, without the noise.
It is the most noise free cable I have tested with the DAVE so far.
 
paul
 

 

[EVOLVIST]

Well, hell, if none of you guys dig your stock DAVE power cord then sell one to me! Haha! I'm laughing, but I'm serious.

 

[Ampus]

I can't help but think there is something in your system that is preventing the DAVE from distancing itself from the Mojo.  As good as the Mojo is, I never once questioned how much better one was over the other.  As good as the DAVE is on headphones, it is even better on speakers.  As the Mojo is battery driven and the DAVE is not, could you possibly have a problem with the quality of your mains supply?  Do you have a dedicated circuit and a good ground?   Are you plugged into a power conditioner or distribution block?  If yes, consider plugging straight into the wall.  If you are plugged straight into the wall, consider plugging into a power conditioner.  Consider trying a different mains cable than the Cullens Crossover you are using.  Are you using equivalent interconnects between Mojo and DAVE?  Have you tried a USB source yet?

I say this because I am currently communicating via PM with someone who approached me with concerns about the SQ he was getting out of his DAVE.  While living in Italy, he told me everything was fine and since moving to Washington, D.C, all of a sudden, his DAVE was no longer sounding good.  We eventually figured out he had a bad distribution block.

Hi Romaz,

I have dedicated circuits (one of the best investments that I have ever made ) for my system and therefore haven't used any power conditioner. I certainly could try using a power conditioner and a different power cable at your advice.

With regards to the interconnects, I am using a 30 years old Sony optical cable that I purchased during my college years (don't laugh ) and Audioquest (AQ) Golden Gate 3.5mm to RCA's for the Mojo. For the DAVE, I am using the stock optical cable and AQ Earth RCA cables. I haven't tried an USB source yet as I am rather old school and too busy with work to tinker with something more complicated than a CD player.

Don't get me wrong. I like the DAVE but it just didn't blow the Mojo to smithereens as I hoped that it would.

 

[ecwl]

I was wondering what digital volume level Ampus sets his DAVE at? Classe M600 has 29dB of gain and Focal Stella are pretty sensitive speakers. Maybe the volume setting is so low for the DAVE and Mojo, the distinction between the two DACs were minimized? Just a thought...

 

[raypin]

I'm also using a loan NRG-10 with my Dave. It's darker than stock and bass is a little more present but I feel I may have lost some important dynamics and some natural decay. I'm still undecided whether to keep it. How would you compare the AudioQuest with stock cable? I also tried the Shunyata Alpha Analogue (they didn't have the Alpha digital) and took that straight back.

Mmm...I'm still evaluating so I can't comment on the difference.

 

[Ampus]

I was wondering what digital volume level Ampus sets his DAVE at? Classe M600 has 29dB of gain and Focal Stella are pretty sensitive speakers. Maybe the volume setting is so low for the DAVE and Mojo, the distinction between the two DACs were minimized? Just a thought...

Trust me that the volume setting was not low. I tend to listen at a relatively high volume level, especially when the wife is not at home . Of course when I A/B compared Mojo and DAVE, I tried to set the volume of both at the same level. It also crossed my mind that my hearing acuity is not what it's used to be. To make sure that this was not the issue, I enlisted my wife and kid in the listening test and they could not hear a pronounced difference either.

 

[STR-1]

Tried a bunch of power cord and ended using Shunyata Sigma Analog 1.75m 15A
For me, I get as close to the sound from my turntable, without the noise.
It is the most noise free cable I have tested with the DAVE so far.

paul

Hi Paul. I had for a couple of days on loan the Shunyata Alpha Analogue to try out with my Dave and HIFIMAN HE1000 (source AK380). I had wanted to try the Alpha Digital but the store didn't have that. I assume the type of difference between the Sigma Analogue and Sigma Digital will be similar to the Alphas. How would you describe that difference? Thanks.

Steve

 

[romaz]

Hi Romaz,

I have dedicated circuits (one of the best investments that I have ever made ) for my system and therefore haven't used any power conditioner. I certainly could try using a power conditioner and a different power cable at your advice.

With regards to the interconnects, I am using a 30 years old Sony optical cable that I purchased during my college years (don't laugh ) and Audioquest (AQ) Golden Gate 3.5mm to RCA's for the Mojo. For the DAVE, I am using the stock optical cable and AQ Earth RCA cables. I haven't tried an USB source yet as I am rather old school and too busy with work to tinker with something more complicated than a CD player.

Don't get me wrong. I like the DAVE but it just didn't blow the Mojo to smithereens as I hoped that it would.

With dedicated circuits, it would seem your mains power should be good but a dedicated circuit doesn't protect you against noise backwashed into your line by your other components.  I prefer not using traditional power conditioners either since I have found that they often trade low noise floor for stunted dynamics but if you have one to try, you have nothing to lose to try one.  Sometimes, they're necessary.  If you have the opportunity to use another power cable (any power cable), it might also be worthwhile to do so.  You never know.
 
As for your Sony optical RCA interconnect, this one is interesting.  I don't know if it's good or not but since the DAVE is so much more affected by things connected after it, it would be reasonable to try something different just to see.  If you don't have another set of RCA cables to try, feel free to PM me.  Depending on where you live, I might be able to help you out.  The Cable Co's lending library is another good resource.
 
The stock optical cable that comes with the DAVE works just fine and should be as good as any as long as you're not getting any dropouts.  I'm sure you have a good CD transport but in the process of keeping an open mind, it might help to try another input on the DAVE using a different source and USB is the DAVE's best input.  Even a battery-powered laptop connected via a generic USB cable to DAVE should work out well.
 
As for value, trying to quantify and rationalize the monetary value of components in an emotionally-driven hobby like high-end audio is a fool's errand, as you probably know, because there's no sane way to rationalize it.  At the same time, how many other hobbies can so easily and reliably transport you through time and space (without legal or health ramifications)?  What I would say is this -- if the sonic differences are large enough and enjoyable enough for you to justify the price premium between the Mojo and DAVE and the means is there for you to do it, you should do it.  My guess is that the DAVE will prove its worth over time and it may be the last DAC you'll ever want.  If not, don't hesitate to stay with the Mojo and consider yourself fortunate that the $600 Mojo is capable of providing you the same emotional experience as the DAVE.  In the end, isn't this what it's about?

 

[x RELIC x]

Trust me that the volume setting was not low. I tend to listen at a relatively high volume level, especially when the wife is not at home . Of course when I A/B compared Mojo and DAVE, I tried to set the volume of both at the same level. It also crossed my mind that my hearing acuity is not what it's used to be. To make sure that this was not the issue, I enlisted my wife and kid in the listening test and they could not hear a pronounced difference either.

I recently posted this in the Mojo Thread for a conversation that was very similar to this one, so I'll cross post my thoughts here:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/784602/chord-mojo-the-official-thread-please-read-the-3rd-post/21600#post_12807842

The thing about hearing a difference between gear is that not everyone listens for the same thing. When Head Fi member romaz took part in Tyll's Big Sound 2015 he was basically the only one who could pass the blind tests (He's a physician, well educated, well spoken, and has a scientific mind). When asked how he did it I believe he said in the forums he listens for the sense of stage in the music. Once he locked on to that it was fairly easy for him to differentiate between gear. Of course I'm paraphrasing, but the point is that if just listening to the music as a general whole then one may not hear any difference at all between gear. Also, the entire chain plays a large part in being able to hear audible differences. With a sub-par transducer the source gear differences will be further masked in distortions and frequency imbalances.

Some members listen to certain things that they find of great value and therefore, to them, the differences are 'night and day'. Others simply don't care about listening for the same things so they will never 'hear' a 'night and day' difference. I think that's where the majority of disconnect happens in describing audio and audio gear.

While there is definitely an audible influence from different individual anatomy I'm pretty sure there is not an audio equivalent of colour blindness (where 4kHz would sound like 30Hz, for example), so I feel, as a whole, we pretty much all hear sound as we should within our individual hearing ability. Continuing with the hearing / sight comparison, our brain filters out a lot of information we gather from our eyes and it processes the result to create a mental image of what we 'see'. I'm pretty sure our auditory system is the same and it's the brain that ends up separating what is the same or different relative to what it has 'heard' in the past. Because of this, if the brain isn't focusing on a certain aspect of the sound, or doesn't value a certain aspect, then the differences 'heard' will not really be evident to the brain IMHO.

With the Mojo, to me, the differences were immediately evident from the gear I owned when I first heard it. Even more so the longer I acclimated to the sound. When a reviewer simply dismisses a difference in sound that I clearly hear then I just chalk it up to the reviewer being lazy, or simply not focusing on the same qualities that I do. Of course this doesn't apply to everything as some gear simply does sound the same/similar. Also, it's all relative to the experience of the listener and the qualities the listener values/focuses on. As it says in my signature... If it produces pleasure for the individual, then it's right.

I would only add that the difference that I hear between the DAVE and other gear I've heard is even greater than with the Mojo, to me at least, but I'm listening for the diaphanous stuff. The real low level detail and subtle cues that give music the sense of realism, depth and soundstage that make it sound more analogue. The space between the notes. The detail in the blackness so to speak.

If focusing 'on the surface' then no, you won't hear much difference, except for perhaps the superior timing. Some people lock on to the low level stuff quickly and others benefit from letting their brain adjust to the sound and then go back their previous gear. Usually that's when the 'aha!' moment happens.

Also, quick A/B has been shown to be less fruitful in hearing differences in gear. Because of the way we are wired it is more beneficial to listen for longer periods at a time when comparing gear. The overriding problem here is that the Mojo is already really good compared to a lot of gear IMO, but the DAVE is easily better to my ears.

 

[extenso]

I recently posted this in the Mojo Thread for a conversation that was very similar to this one, so I'll cross post my thoughts here:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/784602/chord-mojo-the-official-thread-please-read-the-3rd-post/21600#post_12807842
I would only add that the difference that I hear between the DAVE and other gear I've heard is even greater than with the Mojo, to me at least, but I'm listening for the diaphanous stuff. The real low level detail and subtle cues that give music the sense of realism, depth and soundstage that make it sound more analogue. The space between the notes. The detail in the blackness so to speak.

If focusing 'on the surface' then no, you won't hear much difference, except for perhaps the superior timing. Some people lock on to the low level stuff quickly and others benefit from letting their brain adjust to the sound and then go back their previous gear. Usually that's when the 'aha!' moment happens.

Also, quick A/B has been shown to be less fruitful in hearing differences in gear. Because of the way we are wired it is more beneficial to listen for longer periods at a time when comparing gear. The overriding problem here is that the Mojo is already really good compared to a lot of gear IMO, but the DAVE is easily better to my ears.

Are the differences pronounced to you even at a lower volume with headphones, say 50-60 dB? 

 

[x RELIC x]

Are the differences pronounced to you even at a lower volume with headphones, say 50-60 dB? 

To a degree yes, but obviously not as readily, and less dynamic. I'm typically listening at 75-85 dB, and normal conversation level (50-60 dB) doesn't quite get my juices going. However, going any louder than 85 dB becomes quite fatiguing for me on pretty much all gear I've used. To me the biggest difference with the DAVE is transient response, timbre, and very low level detail. Cues that give me a sense of space the recording was recorded in. Also stuff like vibrations of strings, drum hit texture, subtle vocal inflections that I just don't pick up on with lesser gear. The small things that add a large sense of realism to me, which can still be heard at lower volume, but again, not as readily. Obviously close mic'd performances or heavily processed studio recordings are not considered in parts of this assessment. My preference is for recordings with minimal treatment/processing done to them, such as live recordings for example. I hear much less of a difference with heavily produced modern pop between gear.

What I was getting at earlier was that these things will come to the listener IMO, just that they may not be readily evident until the listener adjusts and then goes back to other gear after acclimating to the new information in the sound. That's when you actually miss what you've become accustomed to, even though not everyone may be able to articulate it.

 

[ecwl]

Trust me that the volume setting was not low. I tend to listen at a relatively high volume level, especially when the wife is not at home . Of course when I A/B compared Mojo and DAVE, I tried to set the volume of both at the same level. It also crossed my mind that my hearing acuity is not what it's used to be. To make sure that this was not the issue, I enlisted my wife and kid in the listening test and they could not hear a pronounced difference either.

Wait. Classe M600 only has one RCA input. How do you A/B effectively? Or do you use a preamplifier? If so, what's the preamplifier?

 

[jarnopp]

Trust me that the volume setting was not low. I tend to listen at a relatively high volume level, especially when the wife is not at home . Of course when I A/B compared Mojo and DAVE, I tried to set the volume of both at the same level. It also crossed my mind that my hearing acuity is not what it's used to be. To make sure that this was not the issue, I enlisted my wife and kid in the listening test and they could not hear a pronounced difference either.

I've only heard the Dave once, and it was in an a/b situation when Rob Watts was speaking at Audio Vision in SF. Compared to another top end DAC (forget which now) there was a noticeable difference to the audience on a classical piano piece. Rob thinks piano is some of the most difficult to get right in terms of timing. Perhaps try some piano, or other complex genres?

 

[Ampus]

I recently posted this in the Mojo Thread for a conversation that was very similar to this one, so I'll cross post my thoughts here:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/784602/chord-mojo-the-official-thread-please-read-the-3rd-post/21600#post_12807842
I would only add that the difference that I hear between the DAVE and other gear I've heard is even greater than with the Mojo, to me at least, but I'm listening for the diaphanous stuff. The real low level detail and subtle cues that give music the sense of realism, depth and soundstage that make it sound more analogue. The space between the notes. The detail in the blackness so to speak.

If focusing 'on the surface' then no, you won't hear much difference, except for perhaps the superior timing. Some people lock on to the low level stuff quickly and others benefit from letting their brain adjust to the sound and then go back their previous gear. Usually that's when the 'aha!' moment happens.

Also, quick A/B has been shown to be less fruitful in hearing differences in gear. Because of the way we are wired it is more beneficial to listen for longer periods at a time when comparing gear. The overriding problem here is that the Mojo is already really good compared to a lot of gear IMO, but the DAVE is easily better to my ears.

Thank you for your comments! No, I am not disputing that DAVE is superior to Mojo. I am just stating that the differences were not pronounced as I expected.

I did hear the finesses that you described in your post; however, the differences between Mojo and DAVE are subtle. You even mentioned that yourself "subtle cues". As everyone knows, the higher up you are on the HiFi eschelon, the differences among the high end gears, especially within the same company, become more subtle at best.

I am not surprised that you were able to hear a notable difference among Mojo and other non-Chord products. I had no issue discerning the differences among Mojo and my other non-Chord DAC's. The "problem" with Mojo and DAVE is that they share the Chord's "house sound" making differentiation of the SQ between them more difficult.

Rob Watts recommended doing 10 - 20
seconds of music passages when doing an A/B comparison. I tried both the 10 - 20 seconds and longer passages when I did my comparison.

I also thinking that purchasing an expensive product has a psychological effect on the purchaser. No one wants his or her uber expensive product to be just marginally better than the inexpensive ones. Would this play a role in how some posters were readily able to hear differences whereas other posters were not?

My background is not that different from Romaz's, although I would admit that I do not have the golden ears and the eloquence that he does. I was an engineer before becoming a Vascular surgeon. Needless to say, I am very precise and detail attentive.

Do I prefer DAVE over Mojo? You bet that I do and more than likely will keep DAVE. However, I still think that Mojo gives you a lot for your money. If I have to venture at assigning a number to the two products, I would say that Mojo gives you at least 80% of DAVE's performance.

These are just my opinions. Don't tase me bros!