[Mediahound]

At the end, he actually prefers the DAVE for its timbral accuracy. Yet, the way he describes the Terminator's superiority is what I'm accustomed to hearing as one of DAVE's signature strengths.?

I'm pretty sure that site is sponsored by Denafrips so the 'reviewer's' hands were probably tied and he had to give it a positive review. You really have to be careful with most of the so-called review sites in this respect.

 

[edwardsean]

I'm pretty sure that site is sponsored by Denafrips so the 'reviewer's' hands were probably tied and he had to give it a positive review. You really have to be careful with most of the so-called review sites in this respect.

Could I ask how you know that? I would think if that were the case it would be disclosed somewhere in the review as standard practice for credible review sites, which include Audio Bacon.

Also, Jay's impressions of the Terminator accord with others like Steve Guttenberg, Srajan Ebaen over at 6Moons, Darko, and many others.

I'm just surprised because he made these comments specifically in comparison to DAVE. I really wish Darko had directly compared the Denafrips to his personal DAVE when he had it in home. He did so with the Bartok, but I think he was trying to keep roughly within price classes and the Terminator doesn't have a headphone amp.

 

[Mediahound]

Could I ask how you know that? I would think if that were the case it would be disclosed somewhere in the review as standard practice for credible review sites, which include Audio Bacon.

Also, Jay's impressions of the Terminator accord with others like Steve Guttenberg, Srajan Ebaen over at 6Moons, Darko, and many others.

I'm just surprised because he made these comments specifically in comparison to DAVE. I really wish Darko had directly compared the Denafrips to his personal DAVE when he had it in home. He did so with the Bartok, but I think he was trying to keep roughly within price classes and the Terminator doesn't have a headphone amp.

That's the problem, most sites like that are very sneakily non-transparent about sponsors.

They definitely accept sponsors though:

I’ve realized – advertising is just the nature of the beast. As such, we're now open to sponsored advertisements. If you’re interested, please email xxxx for access to our rate card

from: their about page.

Darko is also sponsored reviews and videos.

 

[edwardsean]

That's the problem, most sites like that are very sneakily non-transparent about sponsors.
They definitely accept sponsors though:
from: their about page.
Darko is also all sponsored reviews and videos. He basically doesn't do a review or video unless the manufacturer pays.

Right, but if they're "non-transparent," you have no idea whether Denafrips is a sponsor or not. I appreciate what you're saying. I do. There are always things going on behind the scenes. However, that quote does go on to. say, "As many of our readers have realized – we’re ruthlessly transparent and thorough with our reviews. These sponsorships will not change that."

That may truly just be words, but in all fairness, over time you do get a sense of whether a reviewer is honest or "venal," level headed or eccentric, slipshod or thorough. I think Jay's the former in each case.

But, my interest is not in Audiobacon or speculation. I'm really hoping that some people have had a chance to audition both units firsthand.

 

[llamaluv]

Well, I just went on a tear reading everything I could find on the Denafrips Terminator. There are a few users on the Terminator thread that compare it to the DAVE. As can be expected, they like the Terminator. One user borrowed a friend's DAVE for a week, and ended up keeping it in the closet after A/Bing it against the Denafrips.

Both are top tier DACs, but I'm having trouble getting a fix on the sonic differences. What is clear is that the Terminator has the more dense presentation. That makes sense to me, esp. as "thinness" can be a characteristic weakness of the DAVE, and the Terminator has those massive, back breaking, toroidal transformers.

What has me a bit confused, and frankly unnerved, is that I would then expect the DAVE to counter with greater transparency, clarity, and resolution. However, Jay Luong, over at Audiobacon believes that this is where the Terminator excels as well. Comparing the two specifically he writes,

"The Terminator does so more with spatial clarity, vividness, and air. You hear deeper into the trinkets, layers, and grooves of the sound. From the leading edges of a violin, drum skin flex, and finger movement on a trumpet. All are placed in plain view with uncanny control and speed. It just sounds more tonally “elegant” and agile.
The DAVE takes a more naturalistic approach. Its greatest strengths are timbre and coherence...."

At the end, he actually prefers the DAVE for its timbral accuracy. Yet, the way he describes the Terminator's superiority is what I'm accustomed to hearing as one of DAVE's signature strengths.

There are not a lot of posts comparing these units here. Has anyone had time with both, especially in the context of headphone listening?

A discussion on questions of sound quality? In the DAVE thread?! Heh.

I swapped my DAVE for my friend's Terminator for a period of three weeks, for fun. For the first two days, I liked it a lot and found it to be an engaging listen. Just by virtue of sounding _different_, it sounded interesting. It creates the impression of being big and dynamic-sounding. However, I grew bored of it surprisingly quickly without trying to, and those three weeks ended up being the period where I listened to my system the least over the past 2 or so years (!).

The Terminator renders soundstage a little differently I felt, which was interesting at first. It sounded big and deep, but the imaging was more smeary, which over time I think I didn't like. The main thing that consciously started getting to me though is the Terminator's treble, which sounds impressive on first blush (again, in part just for sounding different), but I think sounded too foregrounded, smoothed over, and having too much of its own character. I read someone describe it as "glassy", which is a good word for it.

However to be fair, I put a lot of effort into optimizing what's in front of my DAVE (MScalar, Opto-DX, etc), whereas I only fed the Terminator with USB coming out of my Macbook and an Audioquest Cinnamon cable. So I expect I didn't hear it at its best.

 

[edwardsean]

A discussion on questions of sound quality? In the DAVE thread?! Heh.

I swapped my DAVE for my friend's Terminator for a period of three weeks, for fun. For the first two days, I liked it a lot and found it to be an engaging listen. Just by virtue of sounding _different_, it sounded interesting. It creates the impression of being big and dynamic-sounding. However, I grew bored of it surprisingly quickly without trying to, and those three weeks ended up being the period where I listened to my system the least over the past 2 or so years (!).

The Terminator renders soundstage a little differently I felt, which was interesting at first. It sounded big and deep, but the imaging was more smeary, which over time I think I didn't like. The main thing that consciously started getting to me though is the Terminator's treble, which sounds impressive on first blush (again, in part just for sounding different), but I think sounded too foregrounded, smoothed over, and having too much of its own character. I read someone describe it as "glassy", which is a good word for it.

However to be fair, I put a lot of effort into optimizing what's in front of my DAVE (MScalar, Opto-DX, etc), whereas I only fed the Terminator with USB coming out of my Macbook and an Audioquest Cinnamon cable. So I expect I didn't hear it at its best.

Thanks for replying. It really helps to hear a firsthand account. I imagine you're right though, when you say that you didn't get Terminator at its best. If you put something like an Audiobyte Hydra Z so you could go USB to I2S and upscaled the Terminator using the latest DSP board, you'd have a better comparison. I would suspect those things would take care of both the "glassy" high end and the smeared imaging.

The DAVE might still very well be more to your liking. However, this would set the two on more even ground.

I'm curious what came after the DACs? Was it speakers or amp+phones?

Also, as far as soundstage dimensions, it seems like the Terminator was bigger with more depth, even when compared with DAVE+Mscaler?

 

[llamaluv]

I'm curious what came after the DACs? Was it speakers or amp+phones?

Also, as far as soundstage dimensions, it seems like the Terminator was bigger with more depth, even when compared with DAVE+Mscaler?

Headphones, for me. I listened to the Terminator with the same amps and headphones I usually use. My impression of the Terminator's soundstage and imaging compared to the DAVE was a little like listening to tubes versus solid state, actually. I didn't listen to them side-by-side though, but the Terminator might have been bigger and deeper; definitely seemed at least equal.

Also I should mention the Terminator had the DSP board upgrade from late last year (has there been another since then?). And I alternated frequently between NOS mode and HQ Player (I liked the latter a bit more).

 

[muski]

@muski what's the actual length of the cable you linked. Mouser has it 200 meters, which is a "little" more than I need. Of course that would come in handy if I wanted to steal power from the mains of the house next door.

Just kidding, I'm not sure where they're getting that number, but I can't seem to find the correct one.

It’s 200cm or ~6ft

 

[edwardsean]

Headphones, for me. I listened to the Terminator with the same amps and headphones I usually use. My impression of the Terminator's soundstage and imaging compared to the DAVE was a little like listening to tubes versus solid state, actually. I didn't listen to them side-by-side though, but the Terminator might have been bigger and deeper; definitely seemed at least equal.

Also I should mention the Terminator had the DSP board upgrade from late last year (has there been another since then?). And I alternated frequently between NOS mode and HQ Player (I liked the latter a bit more).

Okay, with the DSP board upgrade, and HQP, that's a pretty good comparison then!

"Tubes v. solid state" is the summary conclusion I'm quickly coming to. Jay Luoung said both DACs give you the sense of "you are there,", but in a different way. It seems to me then that the Terminator renders more solid images in more airy space giving a greater "feel" of reality like tubes. The DAVE then presents a more timbrally complete image in more accurate space giving a greater "sense" of reality like solid state. If–that makes sense.

 

[edwardsean]

It’s 200cm or ~6ft

Thanks! The website omitted the "c" so it reads 200m! Ferrite sheathing or no, that length is going to pick up some noise.

 

[Triode User]

A discussion on questions of sound quality? In the DAVE thread?! Heh.

I swapped my DAVE for my friend's Terminator for a period of three weeks, for fun. For the first two days, I liked it a lot and found it to be an engaging listen. Just by virtue of sounding _different_, it sounded interesting. It creates the impression of being big and dynamic-sounding. However, I grew bored of it surprisingly quickly without trying to, and those three weeks ended up being the period where I listened to my system the least over the past 2 or so years (!).

The Terminator renders soundstage a little differently I felt, which was interesting at first. It sounded big and deep, but the imaging was more smeary, which over time I think I didn't like. The main thing that consciously started getting to me though is the Terminator's treble, which sounds impressive on first blush (again, in part just for sounding different), but I think sounded too foregrounded, smoothed over, and having too much of its own character. I read someone describe it as "glassy", which is a good word for it.

However to be fair, I put a lot of effort into optimizing what's in front of my DAVE (MScalar, Opto-DX, etc), whereas I only fed the Terminator with USB coming out of my Macbook and an Audioquest Cinnamon cable. So I expect I didn't hear it at its best.

I borrowed a friends Denafrips Ares 2. Not a Terminator but still useful to get the idea of the house sound. I am afraid this didn’t last two hours in my system never mind two weeks. It had a thumpy exaggerated bass with no detail to it. The top end was of the initially impressive type of sound but which very quickly became fatiguing. The mid range missed out on subtle detail of instruments and notes that had somehow disappeared from the track I was playing. Sure this was all compared to what I consider to be a well sorted Dave/Mscaler but when I connect my Qutest instead of the Denafrips DAC I just sat back and enjoyed the sound. Both were connected by the same USB cable to my Statement.

 

[koven]

I borrowed a friends Denafrips Ares 2. Not a Terminator but still useful to get the idea of the house sound. I am afraid this didn’t last two hours in my system never mind two weeks. It had a thumpy exaggerated bass with no detail to it. The top end was of the initially impressive type of sound but which very quickly became fatiguing. The mid range missed out on subtle detail of instruments and notes that had somehow disappeared from the track I was playing. Sure this was all compared to what I consider to be a well sorted Dave/Mscaler but when I connect my Qutest instead of the Denafrips DAC I just sat back and enjoyed the sound. Both were connected by the same USB cable to my Statement.

Well yes the keyword there is 'not a Terminator' i.e. there's no value or merit in comparing one company's entry level to another's flagship (w/ HMS, no less). It'd be pretty closed minded to write off the Terminator based on how the Ares 2 sounds. Imagine if someone's curiosity of DAVE was hindered by the Mojo, that'd be a shame. Ultimately I like DAVE more, in a vacuum I think it's generally better but I can see someone preferring the Terminator sound. May have stronger synergy in some systems. It's no slouch, just different.

 

[AndrewOld]

Just for a bit of fun, what would be the new product you would most covet if released by Chord Electronics?

For me top 3:
1) Active Loudspeakers with Dave DAC inside and DSP room Frequency adjustment for perfect flat in room frequency response. (Like Dutch & Dutch 8c)
2) Dave MkII
3) Davina

A DAVE successor that didn’t need £1400 cables or irritating batteries to work at its best with an M Scaler. And which didn’t have upsampling circuitry that the MScaler makes redundant. And which didn’t have the inputs, controls and displays that the M Scaler makes redundant. And in a case that is less wastefully overengineered. And thus a lot cheaper.

Don’t think Chord have the remotest chance of producing a decent speaker. But they could make an excellent active drive system for other loudspeaker manufacturers to use.

 

[edwardsean]

Well yes the keyword there is 'not a Terminator' i.e. there's no value or merit in comparing one company's entry level to another's flagship (w/ HMS, no less). It'd be pretty closed minded to write off the Terminator based on how the Ares 2 sounds. Imagine if someone's curiosity of DAVE was hindered by the Mojo, that'd be a shame. Ultimately I like DAVE more, in a vacuum I think it's generally better but I can see someone preferring the Terminator sound. May have stronger synergy in some systems. It's no slouch, just different.

I think you make a a really good point. Could you share you're impressions of the two DACs?

 

[koven]

I think you make a a really good point. Could you share you're impressions of the two DACs?

Well I'm generally aligned to the nuances @llamaluv described a few posts back but here's a whimsical analogy in addition. Terminator is like putting on sunglasses outside... you're protected from the glare and you can see just fine, but your vision is also tinted, colored. DAVE is no sunglasses and 20/20 sight to boot. Look one way and wow what a beautiful glistening day. Look another way and you may wince, i.e. poor recordings.