CHORD ELECTRONICS DAVE

[tunes]

I am searching for a final solution for best DAC/amp for my HEK 1000 V2. After reading many posts it seems as if directly driving these particular headphones with the old HUGO 1 or Mojo just doesn't give enough dynamic punch to get the largest sound stage or deepest base possible. How does the power output from the Dave compare to the new Hugo 2 since I recall reading somewhere that it was more powerful than the Hugo 1. I am looking for the best synergy with these headphones but not yet ready to buy a Dave (looking to the future) and still want some transportability as well.

It's been said that adding an external headphone amp to any of the Chord DACs is illadvised and defeats the design strategy for the purest sound possible from the source. Seems like a major compromise to have to add another amp in the chain with Cord DACs for these particular headphones to be driven to their fullest potential. Would like to hear what Dave owners feel about this who own the HEKV2 and if they ever tried amping any of the Chord DACs and impressions. Why couldn't a really clean high quality headphone amp maintain most of what the Chord DACs offer, take little away and add greater dynamics to offset the shortcomings of some tonal coloration/ distortion? A few amps that seem really good for this are the Trilogy 931, Violectric HPA V281 and MicroZOTL 2 tube amp.

Thanks

 

[rgs9200m]

I use a Hugo TT --> Rudistor RP010B amp with good cables at every junction and the sound with my HEKv2 is outstanding. The HE1000v2 produces the best synergy in this system, so good I am resisting the feeling to upgrade to a Dave since I don't want to upset the apple cart (but I do use a Windows computer as a source).
So don't take as Gospel that using an external amp "defeats the design strategy" as there are strong proponents on both sides of this subject.
And some Chord-ites use a Stax headphone and swear by it, where of course a headphone amp is mandatory. They are not defeating anything.
 
Just to re-emphasize, there is some special goodness in the Chord / HEKv2 combination as I hear it after using several different flagship headphones here.
Good luck.
Edit: to be clear, I use the stock cable on the HEKv2, but balanced.

 

[SunWarrior]

It's been said that adding an external headphone amp to any of the Chord DACs is illadvised and defeats the design strategy for the purest sound possible from the source. Seems like a major compromise to have to add another amp in the chain with Chord DACs for these particular headphones to be driven to their fullest potential. Would like to hear what Dave owners feel about this who own the HEKV2 and if they ever tried amping any of the Chord DACs and impressions.

 
That doesn't make sense to me. I bought the Chord DAVE originally just for its superior DAC capabilities, running in between my Aurender music server and my Luxman integrated amp, and on to the speakers. The sound is great that way.
 
Similarly, there are numbers of excellent headphone amps that do not have DACs. Two that come to mind are the Cavalli Liquid Gold and the Pass Labs HPA-1. Either one of those headphone amps needs to be fed by some source, and if you have an all-digital system - as I do - that means the amp needs to be fed by a DAC's analog outputs.
 
So, why wouldn't I use the great-sounding DAVE to feed the amp? You think a lesser or even similar-level DAC, such as a Berkeley Reference, would sound better with either headphone amp? Or do you think the DAVE's sound quality gets diminished by running into any amp, whether for headphones or speakers?
 
That's not been my experience.
 
Dave, who finds the Cavalli Liquid Gold and the Chord DAVE have two distinctly different but rich sounds with the Focal Utopia headphones and so they complement each other for my listening

 

[JaZZ]

  I use a Hugo TT --> Rudistor RP010B amp with good cables at every junction and the sound with my HEKv2 is outstanding. The HE1000v2 produces the best synergy in this system, so good I am resisting the feeling to upgrade to a Dave since I don't want to upset the apple cart (but I do use a Windows computer as a source).
So don't take as Gospel that using an external amp "defeats the design strategy" as there are strong proponents on both sides of this subject.
And some Chord-ites use a Stax headphone and swear by it, where of course a headphone amp is mandatory. They are not defeating anything.

 
Yes, of course they do.

Every amp degrades the signal. That's why electrostatic headphones will always have a handicap compared to dynamic headphones with a DAVE or any other Chord DAC/amp. That doesn't mean electrostatic systems with a Chord DAC have a handicap compared to other DACs, though.
 
I understand that you like the synergy between the HE1000 and your Rudistor RP010B amp; I've heard the RP5cav which also follows Rudi's sonic ideal, and it's really something special – but also a sound far beyond neutrality, it's much too euphonic and forgiving for my taste.
 
Of course you can add an amp to the DAVE, but it won't improve the sound objectively.

 

[JaZZ]

 

It's been said that adding an external headphone amp to any of the Chord DACs is illadvised and defeats the design strategy for the purest sound possible from the source. Seems like a major compromise to have to add another amp in the chain with Chord DACs for these particular headphones to be driven to their fullest potential. Would like to hear what Dave owners feel about this who own the HEKV2 and if they ever tried amping any of the Chord DACs and impressions.

 
That doesn't make sense to me. I bought the Chord DAVE originally just for its superior DAC capabilities, running in between my Aurender music server and my Luxman integrated amp, and on to the speakers. The sound is great that way.
 
Similarly, there are numbers of excellent headphone amps that do not have DACs. Two that come to mind are the Cavalli Liquid Gold and the Pass Labs HPA-1. Either one of those headphone amps needs to be fed by some source, and if you have an all-digital system - as I do - that means the amp needs to be fed by a DAC's analog outputs.
 
So, why wouldn't I use the great-sounding DAVE to feed the amp? You think a lesser or even similar-level DAC, such as a Berkeley Reference, would sound better with either headphone amp? Or do you think the DAVE's sound quality gets diminished by running into any amp, whether for headphones or speakers?
 
That's not been my experience.
 
Dave, who finds the Cavalli Liquid Gold and the Chord DAVE have two distinctly different but rich sounds with the Focal Utopia headphones and so they complement each other for my listening

 
You don't seem to realize that you can't bypass the DAVE's integrated «headphone amp», since it's identical with its line-out stage, thus line out and headphone out carry the same signal. So the usual scenario of replacing an integrated amp by an external amp doesn't apply: instead you re-amplify an already amplified signal meant to drive headphones – there's nothing to gain in terms of objective sound quality by doing so.

 

[ecwl]

 
Quote:

I am searching for a final solution for best DAC/amp for my HEK 1000 V2. After reading many posts it seems as if directly driving these particular headphones with the old HUGO 1 or Mojo just doesn't give enough dynamic punch to get the largest sound stage or deepest base possible.

 
I have heard the HEK 1000 V2 driven by the Mojo. I thought it sounded great.

 
This is what the real issue is IMHO. Different music is recorded at different volume levels and different people listen to music at different volumes. I know for a fact that I generally listen to music at 10-15dB softer than most people and often up to 25dB softer than some people who just love playing loud (or louder). That's why I had no problems driviing HEK 1000 V2 with Mojo for the music I listen to and the volume I listen at.
 
The real challenge for Tunes is to find out whether say Hugo 2 or Chord DAVE can drive the HEK 1000 V2 to a volume that Tunes would want to listen to music at. I think most people in the Chord DAVE forum says yes but there are a few that say no.
 
If I were Tunes, I would buy the best DAC I can afford (Hugo 2 vs DAVE) with some spare change and then if they can't drive HEK 1000 v2 to satisfactory volume with punch, I would buy an amp to go with the Hugo 2/DAVE. If the issue is that Tunes can only afford Hugo 2 + headphone amp or DAVE but not DAVE + headphone amp, I would say Tunes should just buy Hugo 2 first. Because I don't believe anyone should stretch their budget to a degree where if you can't afford DAVE + headphone amp, you probably shouldn't get DAVE. But that's a personal opinion on personal finance that may not be applicable to everyone.

 

[SunWarrior]

   
You don't seem to realize that you can't bypass the DAVE's integrated «headphone amp», since it's identical with its line-out stage, thus line out and headphone out carry the same signal. So the usual scenario of replacing an integrated amp by an external amp doesn't apply: instead you re-amplify an already amplified signal meant to drive headphones – there's nothing to gain in terms of objective sound quality by doing so.

 
So are you saying that using the DAVE as a standalone DAC, with its analog outputs feeding an amplifier to drive speakers, is a poor idea?
 
Similarly, are you saying that if you have a headphone amp, like the Cavalli or Pass, that require a signal input, that the DAVE is a poor choice?

 

[bigfatpaulie]

   
So are you saying that using the DAVE as a standalone DAC, with its analog outputs feeding an amplifier to drive speakers, is a poor idea?
 
Similarly, are you saying that if you have a headphone amp, like the Cavalli or Pass, that require a signal input, that the DAVE is a poor choice?

 
I can't speak for JaZZ but in my experience an external amp will result in a loss of resolution from DAVE.  And, frankly, I don't care what amp you are using, you are going to lose something.  
 
With speakers, for the most part, you are stuck using an amp.  With headphones, we aren't forced to use one.
 
That said, the loss of transparency CAN be worth it - sometimes.  Rarely.  For example, a big speaker amp driving (a Moon 600i, for example) the Abyss adds presence and weight so that may be worth it to a listener.  An amp form Cavalli or Pass' headphone amp won't do that.  They also won't offer anything (in my experience) that would be worth the trade off with DAVE.
 
But to each their own.

 

[SunWarrior]

   
I can't speak for JaZZ but in my experience an external amp will result in a loss of resolution from DAVE.  And, frankly, I don't care what amp you are using, you are going to lose something.  
 
With speakers, for the most part, you are stuck using an amp.  With headphones, we aren't forced to use one.
 
That said, the loss of transparency CAN be worth it - sometimes.  Rarely.  For example, a big speaker amp driving (a Moon 600i, for example) the Abyss adds presence and weight so that may be worth it to a listener.  An amp form Cavalli or Pass' headphone amp won't do that.  They also won't offer anything (in my experience) that would be worth the trade off with DAVE.
 
But to each their own.

 
So, if you had either the Cavalli or Pass headphone amps, in an all-digital system, what do you think the best DAC in the $10K price range to feed them might be?
 
You see, for me, the DAVE is still the best DAC - even if it had no headphone output - in that price range.
 
So...just curious your take...

 

[bigfatpaulie]

   
So, if you had either the Cavalli or Pass headphone amps, in an all-digital system, what do you think the best DAC in the $10K price range to feed them might be?
 
You see, for me, the DAVE is still the best DAC - even if it had no headphone output - in that price range.
 
So...just curious your take...

 
Still DAVE, but I would ditch the amps.  What do you feel that you are gaining by keeping them in the system?  Particularly with the Utopia's?

 

[JaZZ]

 

   
You don't seem to realize that you can't bypass the DAVE's integrated «headphone amp», since it's identical with its line-out stage, thus line out and headphone out carry the same signal. So the usual scenario of replacing an integrated amp by an external amp doesn't apply: instead you re-amplify an already amplified signal meant to drive headphones – there's nothing to gain in terms of objective sound quality by doing so.

 
So are you saying that using the DAVE as a standalone DAC, with its analog outputs feeding an amplifier to drive speakers, is a poor idea?
 
Similarly, are you saying that if you have a headphone amp, like the Cavalli or Pass, that require a signal input, that the DAVE is a poor choice?

 
Yes to your first point. No to the second: The DAVE is probably the best DAC to feed the Cavalli or Pass. But even better would be to sell those two – they're simply obsolete, unless you have a really demanding headphone, something like the HE-6 maybe. Why would you add an amplifier to a headphone output? What are you hoping to improve on the signal?

 

[SunWarrior]

   
Still DAVE, but I would ditch the amps.  What do you feel that you are gaining by keeping them in the system?  Particularly with the Utopia's?

Well, I need one amp, the Luxman, for my speakers.
 
And the Cavalli has such a different sound signature than the DAVE that they offer two various kinds of pleasures.

 

[Crgreen]

I'm curious to know if @Rob Watts discovered a new improvement in his upcoming Davina project with 16 million taps

16 million taps? I've obviously not been paying attention. I thought we'd only just hit the one million mark with the m-scaler plus DAVE. Or is this a custom configuration designed for research purposes?

 

[rgs9200m]

Well, to be honest, all my headphones sound a little bit sterile right out of my Chord Hugo and Hugo TT. They need some coloration and oomph to my ears.
We'll see what happens if there is ever a Hugo TT2. My mind (and hopefully my ears) is still open...
But the Hugo TT DAC RULES! So thanks Chord.
(Off topic: the Head-fi editor just autocorrected a spelling error. Is this new? The wow-factor lives.)

 

[Rob Watts]

I was rather hoping that, given the price, Chord would include two 1 metre BNC terminated cables with the Blu 2. They've tended to include suitable cables with their other digital products.

As to whether different brands of cable will make a difference and if so, what, is a debate I'm happy to see played out on this forum.

There will be "get up and going" BNC to BNC cables - for two reasons. Running at 768 kHz SPDIF is a first; I was worried that somebody would use a flaky BNC cable that was not true 75 ohm coaxial cable. So supplying a set that is guaranteed to work will prove that a potential problem was the cables. The second reason is just to make sure you are up and running immediately.
 
I have tested it with a range of expensive BNC and it worked perfectly so perhaps my worries are not really a problem. Will be doing some proper listening tests when I get back from Asia.
 
Rob