[miketlse]

So, what do you think: which is the bigger upgrade, HD 800 S to Utopia or TT to DAVE?

 
Trying to look at this logically does not help, because:
 

1. if you upgrade to the Utopia first, it will improve your TT, but leave you itching to get the DAVE
2. if you upgrade to the DAVE first, it will improve your 800 S, but leave you itching to upgrade to Utopia

 
So both scenarios will leave you feeling itchy.
Consequently go to camjam, listen to the Utopia and DAVE if possible (i accept they are not ideal conditions), and let your heart tell you which route to follow.
 
Sorry but it is the best that I can come up with.

 

[Jawed]

I went to CanJam in London. Listening to Utopia versus HD 800 S at the Moon Audio stand and then DAVE on the Chord stand with my HD 800 S was all, ultimately, drowned out by the noise. I had fun that weekend, but that environment prevented me from narrowing things down. To be fair I wasn't there to make such a decision, I went mostly out of general curiosity.

 

[pkcpga]

I've thought of a new way to weigh my options. After CanJam I'd decided that I'd probably want Utopia first before DAVE, on the basis Utopia is probably the biggest upgrade. That is, if I prefer Utopia over HD 800 S.

But nagging at the back of any upgrade plan has been the question of whether Sennheiser will introduce a new headphone above HD 800 (S)... It could be years.

The new thought process starts off pretty simply: DAVE is inevitable. And quickly escalates to "well, while waiting to see if Sennheiser does something new, might as well listen to DAVE."

Anyway, nothing's going to happen until I can spend time with a dealer's well run-in Utopias. Preferably over a weekend or a whole week (I want to find out if they hurt my dumbo ears). It might be a few months before that becomes practical.

---

So, what do you think: which is the bigger upgrade, HD 800 S to Utopia or TT to DAVE?

That's tough and I think you need to listen to both to decide. I upgraded from the hd800 to utopia and it was a very worth while upgrade for me. But I already owned the Dave, I did upgrade or technically spent less but switched from a Lynn dac to the Dave and that was also a pleasant upgrade. I only thought of switching after buying the mojo for portable use and it sounded more musical than my home set up. I'm not sure how much better the Dave is than the TT since I've never tried it, only the non TT version which I found a little thin sounding compared to the Dave or mojo. I think you need to listen and see which gives you the best option at this time for your needs. Both are very good and who knows when sennheiser or chord will come out with something new, they don't seem to follow a schedule like cell phone companies. If you ever decide to add speakers the Dave works incredibly well with speakers as well. I will say I like the utopias through the mojo better than the Hugo (non TT), gave more of a natural weight to the bass, piano keys and male vocals. That might just be my personal preference though.

 

[drabbish]

quick review of my dave
 
2 channel & headphone
 
headphone:  LCD3F with cardas cable, wireworld plat. usb, mac pro, roon
2channel: burmester gear with magico s3, wireworld platnium ic, sc, microrendu, uptone caps 
 
dave hasnt really burned in yet just like 48hrs on it
 
with headphones  sounds good, I dont have alot of headphone experience plus there is like 300pages about this
 
2 channel: this doesnt get discussed here alot bc it is headfi so headphones are the thing but....this dac is pretty impressive. the soundstage is wide and deep. the sound is sweet and all the details are there. I hear every piece of sound that is in every sec of music. I have listened to a decent number of dac's. I was on the dac hunt for almost a year. decided on the dave bc it gave me everything I wanted in a dac plus headphone amp in a small package.  No need for 2-3 boxes and 15 cords for like a DCS type gear. I'm not here to figure out whats the best dac in the world but at this price point it really just depends on what you want in a dac. DSD/PCM/HEADPHONE its all here and it is small and light so I am able to move it around the house. 
 
this dac will not save crap recorded music it will make it sound like crap like the rest of my gear but honestly all the Tidal streaming i have done sounds great, my pcm & dsd music sound superb.  I listen to alot or pop/electronic/hip-hop. 

 

[x RELIC x]

quick review of my dave

2 channel & headphone

headphone:  LCD3F with cardas cable, wireworld plat. usb, mac pro, roon
2channel: burmester gear with magico s3, wireworld platnium ic, sc, microrendu, uptone caps 

dave hasnt really burned in yet just like 48hrs on it

with headphones  sounds good, I dont have alot of headphone experience plus there is like 300pages about this

2 channel: this doesnt get discussed here alot bc it is headfi so headphones are the thing but....this dac is pretty impressive. the soundstage is wide and deep. the sound is sweet and all the details are there. I hear every piece of sound that is in every sec of music. I have listened to a decent number of dac's. I was on the dac hunt for almost a year. decided on the dave bc it gave me everything I wanted in a dac plus headphone amp in a small package.  No need for 2-3 boxes and 15 cords for like a DCS type gear. I'm not here to figure out whats the best dac in the world but at this price point it really just depends on what you want in a dac. DSD/PCM/HEADPHONE its all here and it is small and light so I am able to move it around the house. 

this dac will not save crap recorded music it will make it sound like crap like the rest of my gear but honestly all the Tidal streaming i have done sounds great, my pcm & dsd music sound superb.  I listen to alot or pop/electronic/hip-hop. 

Congrats on the DAVE. Don't expect much burn-in with the hardware. Rob compared his early pre-production unit with many hours on it to a newer production build and noted no real difference.

 

[PeteM]

Has anyone done a direct comparison between the DAVE & older QBD76 HDSD?  I've owned the QBD76 for quite some time now & really like it but thinking about an upgrade.  Have already tried the Hugo TT but it really didn't do it for me -- I also found it somewhat "thin"...

 

[EVOLVIST]

  quick review of my dave
 
2 channel & headphone
 
headphone:  LCD3F with cardas cable, wireworld plat. usb, mac pro, roon
2channel: burmester gear with magico s3, wireworld platnium ic, sc, microrendu, uptone caps 
 
dave hasnt really burned in yet just like 48hrs on it
 
with headphones  sounds good, I dont have alot of headphone experience plus there is like 300pages about this
 
2 channel: this doesnt get discussed here alot bc it is headfi so headphones are the thing but....this dac is pretty impressive. the soundstage is wide and deep. the sound is sweet and all the details are there. I hear every piece of sound that is in every sec of music. I have listened to a decent number of dac's. I was on the dac hunt for almost a year. decided on the dave bc it gave me everything I wanted in a dac plus headphone amp in a small package.  No need for 2-3 boxes and 15 cords for like a DCS type gear. I'm not here to figure out whats the best dac in the world but at this price point it really just depends on what you want in a dac. DSD/PCM/HEADPHONE its all here and it is small and light so I am able to move it around the house. 
 
this dac will not save crap recorded music it will make it sound like crap like the rest of my gear but honestly all the Tidal streaming i have done sounds great, my pcm & dsd music sound superb.  I listen to alot or pop/electronic/hip-hop. 

 
Hey, congrats! a little bit OT, but right now I am powering my DAVE with the WireWorld Silver Electra 7, which I find beats the snot out of every PC I've ever tried, including the High Fidelity Cables stuff, all for the ultra low price of $500. I was totally shocked at how well it brought out the imaging, depth and resolution of my DAVE. It was the first PC that I had ever heard that did exactly what it said it would (and this is after being on The Cable Company loaner program for a while now). So, if you know, I'm wondering how the Platinum compares, since that's quite a large jump in price from the Silver to Platinum in price.

 

[XVampireX]

Here's a good question, many companies today brag about their true bit perfect DACs, like Schiit Yggdrasil does true 21 bits instead of less with other DACs, there is no information on Chord DAVE if it is considerably more on the bit perfect side or on the non-true bit perfect side. Anyone knows anything?
 
Also is Chord DAVE considered R2R? And is it NOS or does it OS to achieve its sound?
 
Thanks

 

[x RELIC x]

[COLOR=333333]Here's a good question, many companies today brag about their true bit perfect DACs,[/COLOR] like Schiit Yggdrasil does true 21 bits instead of less with other DACs, there is no information on Chord DAVE if it is considerably more on the bit perfect side or on the non-true bit perfect side. Anyone knows anything?

Also is Chord DAVE considered R2R? And is it NOS or does it OS to achieve its sound?

Thanks

You really should read this summary gathered by romaz to better understand the implementation Rob takes with his DACs, and why he doesn't like R2R (it's in there).

http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/1395#post_12262339

TL;DR

Rob's goal is to recreate the original sound before it was sampled, not to just leave the sampled data in tact. In his view there's too much jitter with R2R and you simply can't physically get the resistors to match well enough to have as low noise performance, and the ability to reproduce small signals, which he values greatly in his designs based on his extensive listening tests.

This post by Rob also explains a lot of his DAC implementation:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/800264/watts-up/120#post_12586725

And another summary post by romaz, probably the most relevant to your question, summarizing the DAVE compared to other DAC technologies:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/4515#post_12839928

 

[theveterans]

  Here's a good question, many companies today brag about their true bit perfect DACs, like Schiit Yggdrasil does true 21 bits instead of less with other DACs, there is no information on Chord DAVE if it is considerably more on the bit perfect side or on the non-true bit perfect side. Anyone knows anything?
 
Also is Chord DAVE considered R2R? And is it NOS or does it OS to achieve its sound?
 
Thanks

 
DAVE is a Pulse Array DAC that resembles Delta Sigma closer than R2R as it doesn't use resistor ladders to form the analog voltages unlike Schiit. The true Schiit 21 bits marketing is that all samples that is upsampled through the burrito filter aren't thrown away, rather it's calculated 21 bits "exactly". Maybe the rest of the bits are "discarded," but I'm not a electrical engineer that knows the concept of digital signal filtering. All of that happens before the signal is passed through the resistor ladders.
 
DAVE OTOH, upsamples the bits and sample rates to much higher than 768 KHz then through its WTA filter within the FPGA fills in the missing information such as timing, etc, to provide the most precise and accurate analog representation of the digital file. Obviously there's much more technicalities and jargon that happens within Rob's FPGA design.

 

[Deftone]

  I don't feel we should get unduly depressed about the state of today's ADC limitations.
 
Much the same ADC solutions can result in fantastic SQ or terrible SQ - depending on the recording/mixing/mastering techniques employed. Meaning that the latter processes have a hugely bigger impact on the end result. So even with Davina in place (eventually), it will be wasted if the recording/mixing/mastering continue to mess it up big time.
 
So to follow on from ubs28's point, I think the term "recordings...are sorely compromised because of the limitations of all current ADCs" is somewhat overstating the case.
Any further increase in transparency in any part of the recording chain is, of course, a good thing, but I'm not holding my breath on this particular improvement

 
Sadly you also have to convince the engineers that Davina would be a lot better than the gear they already think is very good, i dont think they will all be rushing out to do more conversions from tape again. Then with mordern stuff how would one know if its been put through a Chord ADC... 
 
I wonder what PCM sample rate Rob Watts would recommend engineers to use on Davina, simple 24/96 or extreme 32/768 thats quite interesting.

 

[Deftone]

   
All those of you who can afford DAVE, you are lucky lucky people that, whatever digital format you prefer to listen to, you will be experiencing the bleeding-edge of what is possible in terms of playback resolution and quality

 
You got that right, lucky sods 

 

[XVampireX]

You really should read this summary gathered by @romaz to better understand the implementation Rob takes with his DACs, and why he doesn't like R2R (it's in there).

http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/1395#post_12262339

TL;DR

Rob's goal is to recreate the original sound before it was sampled, not to just leave the sampled data in tact. In his view there's too much jitter with R2R and you simply can't physically get the resistors to match well enough to have as low noise performance, which he values greatly in his designs based on his extensive listening tests.

 
Thanks, will read right now, so based on TL;DR - I'm guessing it's a completely new design of DACs in general, not Delta Sigma nor R2R..
Based on that post it is Pulse Array DAC, sounds interesting, I like unique.
 
About the bit perfect part I see both 24 bits and 21 bits numbers in that post based on noise. so I'm guessing it's also at least 21 bits...
 
I've grown much interest in the Chord DAVE even though it's not money come easy it will take me several months to save up so gotta make sure that this time I'm going for the kill with totally end-game DAC that some (many) people should be jealous of me.
 
I also see that this topic is very active but most discussion here is pretty much on clarification of technology, Chord is not very open with their technology (And I can understand why).
Hope nothing comes better soon after I get it especially cheaper and better.
 
My Goals for the sound: Detail - Clarity with no Harsh Edges - Soundstage - Musicality

 

[x RELIC x]

Thanks, will read right now, so based on TL;DR - I'm guessing it's a completely new design of DACs in general, not Delta Sigma nor R2R..
Based on that post it is Pulse Array DAC, sounds interesting, I like unique.

About the bit perfect part I see both 24 bits and 21 bits numbers in that post based on noise. so I'm guessing it's also at least 21 bits...

I've grown much interest in the Chord DAVE even though it's not money come easy it will take me several months to save up so gotta make sure that this time I'm going for the kill with totally end-game DAC that some (many) people should be jealous of me.

I also see that this topic is very active but most discussion here is pretty much on clarification of technology, Chord is not very open with their technology (And I can understand why).
Hope nothing comes better soon after I get it especially cheaper and better.

I edited my previous reply to you and the last link I provided may be the most relevant to your question. As far as the bits are concerned I can't remember what Rob has said, he would have to answer that question. I can say that even 16/44.1 sounds incredible with Chord DACs.

Yes, Rob is walking his own path and no one else is doing it his way. He's very familiar with all the technologies out there and decided to follow his own path.

My Goals for the sound: Detail - Clarity with no Harsh Edges - Soundstage - Musicality

Detail - DAVE has detail in spades.

Clarity - Smooth, yet very clear, not riddled with harsh edges or hardnesss. What I consider very difficult to do and a strength of Rob's designs

Soundstage - Rob in very interested in reproducing accurate depth. An organ played 100ft away should sound like 100 ft away. Soundstage though, in general, is more the domain of the recording (live vs studio mix), headphones or speakers.

 

[esimms86]

Sadly you also have to convince the engineers that Davina would be a lot better than the gear they already think is very good, i dont think they will all be rushing out to do more conversions from tape again. Then with mordern stuff how would one know if its been put through a Chord ADC... 

I wonder what PCM sample rate Rob Watts would recommend engineers to use on Davina, simple 24/96 or extreme 32/768 thats quite interesting.

FWIW the MQA algorithms can reportedly easily determine whether or not Davina was part of the original recording chain. If MQA can do it...