CHORD ELECTRONICS DAVE
Sep 10, 2016 at 6:30 AM Post #4,636 of 26,005
My girlfriend asked what did I get and that it looked like a controller for some kind of spaceship. But it looked nice anyway according to her :p

I have to admit, the design of the Chord Dave looks quite futuristic.


I agree wholeheartedly. There is a lot of love/hate around the DAVE design, but I think it's brilliant!
 
Sep 10, 2016 at 7:32 AM Post #4,638 of 26,005
  Negative feedback (NFB) - that's a big can of worms. After all, every audiophile knows feedback is evil, and you must have no global feedback.
 
Which is of course nonsense. All you are doing is reducing global feedback with more local feedback. So how did the low NFB being good myth come about?
 
Well firstly we have to be careful - some people like the sound of distortion - particularly if you are creating oodles of 2nd. So a report of NFB being bad may be down to a preference to higher distortion. But lets ignore that particular issue, and run through a thought experiment.
 
Now let us imagine you want to design an amplifier to drive a headphone or loudspeaker. And to eliminate the possibility of people liking distortion, lets assume that you have a target of 0.01% THD, that you design two amps, one low NFB, one high NFB, but both must measure with about 0.01%.
 
So you have a high NFB (normal) design, and to make it low NFB you use more local feedback - say in the case of bipolar use more emitter degeneration. And because there is less NFB, you can increase the open loop frequency response. But you find it will not meet the 0.01% THD, as the major source of distortion is the OP stage and there is not enough NFB to correct the OP stage - so you improve that open loop performance by either more local feedback around the OP stage, or increasing the bias current.
 
So now we have two amps, both measuring about the same, and I can say that for sure the low NFB amp will sound a lot smoother and more refined. So that means that low NFB must be better, surely?
 
No it doesn't.
 
Let's look at what you have done to make it low feedback.
 
1. Local feedback by using emitter degeneration. This makes it more linear, but also more linear at RF frequencies - and that will reduce noise floor modulation - and that will make it sound smoother.
 
2. Increasing bias current in the OP stage - this will reduce the HF distortion, as the annoying thing about crossover distortion is it sounds very hard due the very high frequency harmonics - indeed, Class B operation has distortion extending to infinite frequencies. So increasing bias will also make it smoother.
 
3. Increasing the open loop FR - this will mean that there is now more feedback available at high frequencies - and this too will make it smoother as HF distortion will be lower.
 
Now the issue of noise floor modulation I have talked about a lot. But high frequency distortion is also very important - indeed I always measure up to 2 MHz looking for distortion, as distortion at very high frequencies is audible. By that I mean whenever I have reduced distortion at say 100 kHz it sounds smoother. Which is crazy - how can distortion at 100 kHz be audible? Well it depends upon how that distortion is there, and some very high frequency distortion acts via changing the delay - so the delay then changes with signal level, and you can only measure this by looking way out of band. But the delay change with signal is highly audible, (it again sounds smoother by eliminating it) and its audible because it is modulating the timing of transients - not because you can hear distortion at 100 kHz.
 
So NFB is categorically not a problem at all, but like most things in audio, is actually very complex. People would be better off talking about minimising distortion, noise floor modulation, and HF and RF distortion. But that doesn't make for a snappy line on a sales sheet.
 
Rob

Thank you Rob for your explanation. So it is not that NFB is bad or evil... the critical thing is how you utilize it and what you target to achieve by using it.
 
Relieved to know that it is not a big can of evil worms!
 
Sep 10, 2016 at 7:45 AM Post #4,639 of 26,005
   
This type of behaviour also happens with the Mojo  and other dacs - the designers either allow the dac to play a short burst of the music with unknown new bitrate (ie the burst of distortion), or mute the sound output of the dac, until the dac has identified what the correct sampling rate is.
 
You may find something interesting in post #3 of the mojo thread, in the subsection about setting up foobar/jriver if you are losing a second fo each track.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/784602/chord-mojo-the-official-thread-please-read-the-3rd-post#

 
Thx for the info.
 
Just to clarify my case is the noise or distorted music will continue to play, I've observe nearly 1 min before I stop it, so I suppose it will play until at least for the period of the whole song.
 
Sep 10, 2016 at 7:48 AM Post #4,640 of 26,005
  Hi all,
 
I'm suffer from random playback problem, where the sound playback will randomly become either 1. high freq noise only, or 2. highly distort music.
 
It happens randomly when playback switch to a hd sample rate media, either 24/96 or DSF etc, if switch from a hd media to 44.1k sample rate media, it will not occur, seems there is communication error when switching sample rate. I can fix the noise by select "next" on my iPad Roon app to skip to next song until a different sample rate file is play, then the playback will resume normal.  If next song is of the same sample rate, I need to skip again until a diff sample rate file is play.
 
In scenario 1 (only high freq noise is play), the panel on DAVE keep on switching, I record a video here :
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17490273/switch%20to%20HD%20media%20plaback%20with%20noise%20only.mp4
 
Here is video of scenario 2, highly distort music is playback
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17490273/switch%20to%20HD%20file%20play%20with%20distored%20sound.mp4
 
My system is :
 
Roon server on Synology NAS -> LAN -> switch -> mR -> DAVE
 
I've try swapping USB cable for mR -> DAVE, between Curious Cables USB / AQ Diamond USB, remove the Jitterbug there, both not help.
 
mR firmware was update from v2.2 to latest v2.3 and does not help, and it was powered by SBooster LPS.
 
At the mR admin page, the "DAC Diagnostics" shows the sample rate which match the media file I'm playing. DoP support is selected and Roon shows no sample rate conversion whatever media I play.
 
Here is the "DAC Diagnostics" when scenario 1 (only high freq noise is play) happens, a DSD64 dsf file is playing with high freq noise only, on DAVE the sample rate panel is switching between DSD64 & 176k quickly, as in the first video above.
 
access: RW_INTERLEAVED
format: S32_LE
subformat: STD
channels: 2
rate: 176400 (176400/1)
period_size: 8820
buffer_size: 17640
 
This problem does not happen with my previous DAC with the same chain, and was not observed in my first week with DAVE.
 
Any idea ?  
 
As I'm not sure the cause is at mR / Roon / DAVE yet, so I post here to get some direction first, may escalate to related support forum later.
 
I have my previous Intel NUC + LPS + Win10 machine around, will try to setup to replace mR to see if it helps.  As I saw someone mention the Chord Windows ASIO driver for DAVE is quite nice.
 
Thanks
Paul

 
The "Resync Delay" in my Roon was 0ms default at the beginning, after this problem happens, I've try to increase it to 50ms, then 100ms, and it still the same.
 
Sep 10, 2016 at 8:05 AM Post #4,641 of 26,005
   
Thx for the info.
 
Just to clarify my case is the noise or distorted music will continue to play, I've observe nearly 1 min before I stop it, so I suppose it will play until at least for the period of the whole song.

 
Normally the noise continues for about half a second until, the dac can identify the correct bitrate of the new music file, and then start to use the correct algorithms.
Your noise is always starting at the start of a new track - this is different to the short bursts of noise caused by problems with the music source (eg phone) when the phone delays the usb feed for a short time, until the CPU/memory if free again. Here the dac experiences a period on no input data, so can just output noise.
 
Yours is the first case that I have heard of the noise lasting for nearly a minute (and possibly a whole song), so it will be interesting for many users to discover the issue/cure. My instinct is that it must be one of the settings on your music player software, or the DAVE. I do not have a DAVE, but maybe one of the DAVE owners can suggest if any of the settings are relevant, and can be changed. 
 
Sep 10, 2016 at 8:49 AM Post #4,642 of 26,005
What is the best price/performance USB cable to get for the DAVE? I have an Aurender music server that does not have an optical out unfortunately. Has anyone found that there is any significant real difference across all recordings and headphones using different cables?
 
Sep 10, 2016 at 9:06 AM Post #4,643 of 26,005
On another note, would a relatively modest USB cable be better if I added one of the devices listed below instead of hundreds of dollars on a fancy USB cable?? Any thoughts on real differences?

PS Audio Lannrover, UpTone's USB Regen or AudioQuest's JitterBug
 
Sep 10, 2016 at 9:22 AM Post #4,644 of 26,005
On another note, would a relatively modest USB cable be better if I added one of the devices listed below instead of hundreds of dollars on a fancy USB cable?? Any thoughts on real differences?

PS Audio Lannrover, UpTone's USB Regen or AudioQuest's JitterBug


I be careful with the jitterbug I found it veils the music. I use nordost cables and love them but they are 3 or 4 times more expensive than AQ cables.
 
Sep 10, 2016 at 10:39 AM Post #4,645 of 26,005
I am no expert but as far as I know jitterbug only removes the noise of USB power and it does not reclock the data. also USB transfer be it with or without jitterbug involves data packet transfer without losing any data and as per the clock of dave. so may be that veiling is actually the removal of noise. I used jitterbug with both mojo and hugo and for me jitterbug did make the difference worth much more than it's price.
 
Sep 10, 2016 at 11:05 AM Post #4,646 of 26,005
On another note, would a relatively modest USB cable be better if I added one of the devices listed below instead of hundreds of dollars on a fancy USB cable?? Any thoughts on real differences?

PS Audio Lannrover, UpTone's USB Regen or AudioQuest's JitterBug


https://www.tripplite.com/usb-2.0-high-speed-a-b-cable-ferrite-chokes-male-6-ft~U023006/

Meets or Exceeds USB 2.0 Specifications
Supports faster data transfer rate (1.5 to 480 Mbps) for low speed and high speed devices, including multimedia applications
Premium double-shielded cables with tinned copper braid and aluminum mylar foil and Ferrite chokes, feature twisted 28AWG data lines, and 24AWG power lines.
Gold plated connectors provide superior conductivity
 
Sep 10, 2016 at 11:21 AM Post #4,647 of 26,005
I am no expert but as far as I know jitterbug only removes the noise of USB power and it does not reclock the data. also USB transfer be it with or without jitterbug involves data packet transfer without losing any data and as per the clock of dave. so may be that veiling is actually the removal of noise. I used jitterbug with both mojo and hugo and for me jitterbug did make the difference worth much more than it's price.

 
Yes, I think rob watts has stated that all chord dacs reclock the data, so are immune from jitter.
 
Instead the (badly named?) jitterbug cleans the usb power bus - i think someone stated that the jitterbug packaging makes no reference to reducing jitter.
 
Overall rob watts concluded that if you are happy to spend £8k on a dac, then spending a further £40 on a jitterbug, to possibly obtain a slight improvement in the sound that you hear, represents a cost-effective investment.
 
Sep 10, 2016 at 12:08 PM Post #4,648 of 26,005
   
Thx for the info.
 
Just to clarify my case is the noise or distorted music will continue to play, I've observe nearly 1 min before I stop it, so I suppose it will play until at least for the period of the whole song.

I have the same problems as paulkwan with Roon over MRendu. But it only happens when I turn on the Dave and I am listening to music which has a different sample rate than the music I listened to before I turned off the Dave. No big deal though. Just turning off and on the Dave until the distortion has gone.
 
Sep 10, 2016 at 12:44 PM Post #4,649 of 26,005
"Yes, I think rob watts has stated that all chord dacs reclock the data, so are immune from jitter.

Instead the (badly named?) jitterbug cleans the usb power bus - i think someone stated that the jitterbug packaging makes no reference to reducing jitter.

Overall rob watts concluded that if you are happy to spend £8k on a dac, then spending a further £40 on a jitterbug, to possibly obtain a slight improvement in the sound that you hear, represents a cost-effective investment"

So are you being facetious or do you really think that little device will change anything or for that matter an expensive USB cable?

Seems hard to believe there is a difference in USB cables ranging in price from $3 to $300
 
Sep 10, 2016 at 3:52 PM Post #4,650 of 26,005
"Yes, I think rob watts has stated that all chord dacs reclock the data, so are immune from jitter.

Instead the (badly named?) jitterbug cleans the usb power bus - i think someone stated that the jitterbug packaging makes no reference to reducing jitter.

Overall rob watts concluded that if you are happy to spend £8k on a dac, then spending a further £40 on a jitterbug, to possibly obtain a slight improvement in the sound that you hear, represents a cost-effective investment"

So are you being facetious or do you really think that little device will change anything or for that matter an expensive USB cable?

Seems hard to believe there is a difference in USB cables ranging in price from $3 to $300

 
No I was not being facetious. I will present the evidence upon which my comments were based.
 
 
Jitterbug name - http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/3450#post_12685942
 
Rob Watts findings - http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/3435#post_12681548
 
his post contains the following comments:
 
"So adding the Audioquest Jitter Bug did indeed improve SQ - it was fairly easy to hear it"
"Use the jitter bug for mains powered USB sources - it is worth the small cost"
 
So if you challenge me by asking "do you really think that little device will change anything", my response is that Rob Watts thinks it does, and his opinion Top Trumps both our opinions. 
wink.gif
 
 

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