CHORD ELECTRONICS DAVE
Jul 16, 2016 at 1:13 PM Post #3,661 of 25,868
@rkt31
Just use an optical cable.:blush:

That's right.  Very few pure CD transports output in USB.  The Esoteric certainly doesn't.  It is generally some form of SPDIF (optical or digital coax) and with the DAVE, it has already been well established that optical is superior to digital coax and even AES/EBU.  Optical has the advantage of complete ground noise isolation and so passage of RF noise from the source is not an issue here.  Historically, the issue with optical is jitter but as we know, the DAVE is completely immune to source jitter to a level of 2us.  Then, there is the issue of mechanical noise but probably not an issue for most modern transports.
 
Late last year, my Chord dealer and I did a blind test between 2 CD transports he had on hand that we connected via optical to the DAVE.  We used a 1 minute segment from Mahler's 9th symphony as a test track.  One was a $500 Cambridge Audio unit and the other was a $19,000 Wadia.  While there were very subtle differences between the two, they were not enough to make a difference in terms of which transport we would choose even if both units cost the same.  We would have been happy with either.
 
Jul 16, 2016 at 1:14 PM Post #3,662 of 25,868
Any idea when the amp will be released? Excited to see how well to drive speaker.

The first amp is supposed to come out next year although I think Rob's immediate priority might be the ADC.
 
Jul 16, 2016 at 7:00 PM Post #3,665 of 25,868
  You will want to communicate with @paulchiu.  He has both the Nagra HD and the DAVE and he listens to a lot of PCM and DSD.
 
You can make an argument for many great DACs for 2-channel speaker setups and headphones but it's tougher to find one that is equally great for both without some major compromise and for me, this is the greatest attribute of the DAVE.  Some DACs are chosen because they have established pedigrees in million dollar systems; some DACs are chosen because they have million dollar price tags and so surely, it must be good; some are chosen because it is what the local dealer was selling and then there are DACs that are chosen based on actual merit where the purchaser did their due diligence to find the best DAC they could possibly find.  I won't make any definitive statements because there's no accounting for personal tastes, budget and system synergy but I will say that in my opinion, the DAVE deserves to be in any conversation where "best DAC in the world" is being discussed and should be on anyone's short list who is looking for the best possible DAC for the best possible value, whether it be for an HD-800 or a $600,000 pair of Magico Ultimates.
 
My value statements are based on the following:   Having attempted to do my due diligence, I have traveled far and wide to hear and experience many things.  To the chagrin of my wallet, I have also bought many DACs only to sell them after I found something better.  I am not so naive or arrogant to say one DAC is great and everything else is rubbish or the DAC that I have now will be the best DAC forever.  I think there are many great DACs and many more great DACs are being developed every year which is a wonderful thing for the consumer.  if I was forced to a certain price point, I would have no problem finding a DAC I could be happy with at that price point, whether it be $1,000 or $100,000 although obviously, there are different degrees of happiness that different price points will buy.  What I will say is this, once the budget goes beyond $10,000, there will only be one DAC in my sights and that will be the DAVE.  As someone who treasures live performances, it speaks to these sensibilities better than anything else I have experienced, regardless of price.  If someone prefers the colored sweet harmonics that comes with a tube DAC, there's nothing wrong with that but the DAVE is not it.  For those that believe that sound tuning belongs more with the pre-amp, amp, transducers or even cables and that the main job of the DAC is to provide as hauntingly realistic and natural interpretation of the digital file as possible, whether it be lowly 16/44, DXD or DSD, then the DAVE deserves an audition.
 
SQ is not the only place where the DAVE separates itself, however.  Let's take DAC brand X, which happens to sell for a base price of $100,000 and is comprised of a multi-stack of components because, of course, for this DAC to sound its best, the company is expecting that you will spend another $20k for the triple power bases and $15k for the upgraded atto-clock.  It wouldn't be proper if you didn't spend another $20k for their upgraded music server with a cryo-treated external clock and then another $20k for the super deluxe preamp but this should go without saying because you've already come so far, why stop now?  If you listen to headphones, surely, you'll want to also spring for the new $50k matching headphone amp and it would be heresy if you don't spend at least another $60,000 on mains cables and interconnects and another $30k for a suitable rack to house everything.  When it's time to listen to music, make sure you budget for enough time beforehand so you can turn on every single component and allow each one to properly warm up.  
 
Then comes the DAVE, a single component that can fit comfortably on a desk or end table.  Sure, it benefits from isolation devices but go ahead and use it as is.  Plug it into the wall with whatever mains cable you can find, even if it's the one that powers your fax machine.  While you're at it, go ahead and grab the generic USB cable that you're using for your printer and then use it to connect the $500 Windows laptop that your brother-in-law handed down to you because he outgrew it.  You say you want to listen to CDs?  Go ahead and dust off that $100 Emerson CD player that your son bought at a garage sale and connect it to the DAVE using the "Made in China" optical cable that came with it.  Now, flip on your speaker amp and listen to what comes out.  Once the family goes to sleep, go ahead and plug your HE-1000 directly into the headphone port of the DAVE and listen to what comes out.  I would be willing to bet that the DAVE won't embarrass itself.  If you give the DAVE the same attention that you gave your $100,000 DAC, I would be willing to bet that you will wonder why you spent all that money and put up with all the inconvenience.


Hi Romaz,  
 
Thank you sincerely for your sharing of your extensive experience, truly perceptive and illustrates how far you have travelled in this immersive ( ?obsessive ?) hobby/pursuit of ours. Re para 3, couldn't agree more, we all get the sense of being fodder for the industry, constantly being encouraged/ exhorted to upgrade and move onto the latest development .  My own search has originally been based on first-hand auditions and subsequent purchases, with own personal $$$s, but lately this availability to "try before you buy" has become almost impossible ( fewer dealers, fewer demo units, higher aspirations of equipment,  time, etc ).
 
Owned and loved in their time: Chord DAC64, then Chord QBD76 ( nonHD ) together w Chord BLU CD transport and Esoteric X-03, then Soulution 540 CD/SACD, and then been lucky to acquire EMM Labs XDS1v2 (Nov 2014, current 2015-2016 specification incl. MDAT2 )  AND separately Nagra HD DAC ( within same time-frame) and both were purchased with trade-ins and own personal $$$s.  Actually very happy with these 2 sources, and have NAD M50 acting as a streaming source.  Have found each DAC ( EMM, Nagra ) lovely , sometimes one illustrates different flavours to enhance the music presentation in a more "live" natural way as per concert venue, smaller recital hall, church or record venue.  Prefer HP listening slightly more often from Luxman p700u HA  ( fed from either EMM Labs XDS1v2 direct or via Nagra HD DAC thru Synergistic Research Element CTS Digital AES/EBU XLR ),  as Luxman HA is balanced, output from it is  DHC Silver Complement balanced cord ( definitely beautiful open and natural sound ) into Enigma Dharma HP,  though Nagra HP direct to HD800 via Moon Silver Dragon v3 also musical rich and " denser" sometimes : might be the cabling and balanced nature of theHA, and  psychoacoustic experience/expectation ?,  as much as the DAC, HP.  Both HPs and Luxman were auditioned then bought, the EMM Labs XDS1v2 and Nagra HD DAC were bought un-auditioned  after lots of research. 
 
So , my curiosity about Chord DAVE has been piqued, especially by comments by PaulChiu and iSquirrel, especially as I previously liked the presentation of my prior Chord DACs and BLU transport ( despite reliability issues ). As experience has taught, cannot always rely on audition first, nor of course from just reading and asking extensively, so intelligent guess-work and luck and "gamble" all  play increasing importance in " destination " purchase(s), especially as our ears and auditory nerves only get older and somewhat frailer.
 
Recently, found upstream power cable change made a substantial difference to all source and pre/power components ( Synergistic Research Atmosphere level4 PC to SR Powercell UEF and Preamp and power amp each ), even just to the Powercell UEF feeding the established/prior SR Element CTS digital PCs to source components. So, agree "everything matters " in this game..
 
Much appreciate your thoughts , am definitely interested in DAVE for both main system and HP listening , Cheers M2m
 
Jul 16, 2016 at 7:04 PM Post #3,666 of 25,868
hello I am in USA, but could not make it to the New York City Dealer to audition DAVE. 
 
Does anyone know if I can audition Dave somewhere near Dublin, California where I will be staying for the next week?
 
Cheers
 
Jul 16, 2016 at 7:09 PM Post #3,667 of 25,868
   
 
You are not alone and here is the forum where many share your experience.  I have separate rooms in my home for speakers and headphones.  In my office, I have both.  I usually play my large speakers when friends are over.  Mainly so they can all enjoy the music.  When I personally savor my music, it most always will be with my favorite DAC/Amp/headphone.  Currently in the market, there are extraordinary DACs, amps and headphones.  The progress of speakers is not comparable, at least in the price zones for personal listening.
 
Over a year ago at one of the best audio salons in New York, I auditioned the Nagra HD DAC with TH900 and my Macbook Pro.  In the same room were 2 pairs of speakers connected to systems (both analog and digital) worth a million.  After an hour of listening to both, I was surprised that I prefer the sound from the head-amp and TH900.  Yes, I do not have the imaging or tactile connection with the music when using the headphone.  Yes, the headphone can get warm, uncomfortable or restrictive.  These aside, the resolution and intimacy afforded by the TH900 and Nagra were overwhelming.  The million dollar speakers-system in an exquisite sound room could not lure me away from the unique personal soundscape I enjoyed.  It was not about the money!
 
I purchased the Nagra following that day.
 
Similar thing happened to me this past year when I added the great DAVE.
 
Paul


Hi Paul,
 
I read your comment with great interest, especially as am interested in Chord DAVE, and also have Nagra HD DAC. Below I enclose my comments to Romaz,...and wondering how your experience btw Nagra HD DAC and Chord DAVE for both 2-channel big system and for HP listening have panned out over time.
 
Hi Romaz,  
 
Thank you sincerely for your sharing of your extensive experience, truly perceptive and illustrates how far you have travelled in this immersive ( ?obsessive ?) hobby/pursuit of ours. Re para 3, couldn't agree more, we all get the sense of being fodder for the industry, constantly being encouraged/ exhorted to upgrade and move onto the latest development .  My own search has originally been based on first-hand auditions and subsequent purchases, with own personal $$$s, but lately this availability to "try before you buy" has become almost impossible ( fewer dealers, fewer demo units, higher aspirations of equipment,  time, etc ).
 
Owned and loved in their time: Chord DAC64, then Chord QBD76 ( nonHD ) together w Chord BLU CD transport and Esoteric X-03, then Soulution 540 CD/SACD, and then been lucky to acquire EMM Labs XDS1v2 (Nov 2014, current 2015-2016 specification incl. MDAT2 )  AND separately Nagra HD DAC ( within same time-frame) and both were purchased with trade-ins and own personal $$$s.  Actually very happy with these 2 sources, and have NAD M50 acting as a streaming source.  Have found each DAC ( EMM, Nagra ) lovely , sometimes one illustrates different flavours to enhance the music presentation in a more "live" natural way as per concert venue, smaller recital hall, church or record venue.  Prefer HP listening slightly more often from Luxman p700u HA  ( fed from either EMM Labs XDS1v2 direct or via Nagra HD DAC thru Synergistic Research Element CTS Digital AES/EBU XLR ),  as Luxman HA is balanced, output from it is  DHC Silver Complement balanced cord ( definitely beautiful open and natural sound ) into Enigma Dharma HP,  though Nagra HP direct to HD800 via Moon Silver Dragon v3 also musical rich and " denser" sometimes : might be the cabling and balanced nature of theHA, and  psychoacoustic experience/expectation ?,  as much as the DAC, HP.  Both HPs and Luxman were auditioned then bought, the EMM Labs XDS1v2 and Nagra HD DAC were bought un-auditioned  after lots of research. 
 
So , my curiosity about Chord DAVE has been piqued, especially by comments by PaulChiu and iSquirrel, especially as I previously liked the presentation of my prior Chord DACs and BLU transport ( despite reliability issues ). As experience has taught, cannot always rely on audition first, nor of course from just reading and asking extensively, so intelligent guess-work and luck and "gamble" all  play increasing importance in " destination " purchase(s), especially as our ears and auditory nerves only get older and somewhat frailer.
 
Recently, found upstream power cable change made a substantial difference to all source and pre/power components ( Synergistic Research Atmosphere level4 PC to SR Powercell UEF and Preamp and power amp each ), even just to the Powercell UEF feeding the established/prior SR Element CTS digital PCs to source components. So, agree "everything matters " in this game..
 
Much appreciate your thoughts , 
 
Very much appreciate your thoughts also Paul, hopefully you can place my listening environment into perspective and come up with your comment.  Cheers , M2m
 
Jul 16, 2016 at 7:16 PM Post #3,668 of 25,868
  hello I am in USA, but could not make it to the New York City Dealer to audition DAVE. 
 
Does anyone know if I can audition Dave somewhere near Dublin, California where I will be staying for the next week?
 
Cheers


The Chord dealer in San Francisco is Audio Vision SF.  Ask for Antonio Long, he is very knowledgeable about this DAC and will provide you with a wonderful demo at your leisure using a variety of headphones (including the HE-1000, Abyss, Dharma D1000) or speakers.  He has other DACs and high-end CD players you can compare the DAVE against.  
 
Jul 17, 2016 at 12:56 AM Post #3,669 of 25,868
 
Hi Paul,
 
I read your comment with great interest, especially as am interested in Chord DAVE, and also have Nagra HD DAC. Below I enclose my comments to Romaz,...and wondering how your experience btw Nagra HD DAC and Chord DAVE for both 2-channel big system and for HP listening have panned out over time.
 
Hi Romaz,  
 
Thank you sincerely for your sharing of your extensive experience, truly perceptive and illustrates how far you have travelled in this immersive ( ?obsessive ?) hobby/pursuit of ours. Re para 3, couldn't agree more, we all get the sense of being fodder for the industry, constantly being encouraged/ exhorted to upgrade and move onto the latest development .  My own search has originally been based on first-hand auditions and subsequent purchases, with own personal $$$s, but lately this availability to "try before you buy" has become almost impossible ( fewer dealers, fewer demo units, higher aspirations of equipment,  time, etc ).
 
Owned and loved in their time: Chord DAC64, then Chord QBD76 ( nonHD ) together w Chord BLU CD transport and Esoteric X-03, then Soulution 540 CD/SACD, and then been lucky to acquire EMM Labs XDS1v2 (Nov 2014, current 2015-2016 specification incl. MDAT2 )  AND separately Nagra HD DAC ( within same time-frame) and both were purchased with trade-ins and own personal $$$s.  Actually very happy with these 2 sources, and have NAD M50 acting as a streaming source.  Have found each DAC ( EMM, Nagra ) lovely , sometimes one illustrates different flavours to enhance the music presentation in a more "live" natural way as per concert venue, smaller recital hall, church or record venue.  Prefer HP listening slightly more often from Luxman p700u HA  ( fed from either EMM Labs XDS1v2 direct or via Nagra HD DAC thru Synergistic Research Element CTS Digital AES/EBU XLR ),  as Luxman HA is balanced, output from it is  DHC Silver Complement balanced cord ( definitely beautiful open and natural sound ) into Enigma Dharma HP,  though Nagra HP direct to HD800 via Moon Silver Dragon v3 also musical rich and " denser" sometimes : might be the cabling and balanced nature of theHA, and  psychoacoustic experience/expectation ?,  as much as the DAC, HP.  Both HPs and Luxman were auditioned then bought, the EMM Labs XDS1v2 and Nagra HD DAC were bought un-auditioned  after lots of research. 
 
So , my curiosity about Chord DAVE has been piqued, especially by comments by PaulChiu and iSquirrel, especially as I previously liked the presentation of my prior Chord DACs and BLU transport ( despite reliability issues ). As experience has taught, cannot always rely on audition first, nor of course from just reading and asking extensively, so intelligent guess-work and luck and "gamble" all  play increasing importance in " destination " purchase(s), especially as our ears and auditory nerves only get older and somewhat frailer.
 
Recently, found upstream power cable change made a substantial difference to all source and pre/power components ( Synergistic Research Atmosphere level4 PC to SR Powercell UEF and Preamp and power amp each ), even just to the Powercell UEF feeding the established/prior SR Element CTS digital PCs to source components. So, agree "everything matters " in this game..
 
Much appreciate your thoughts , 
 
Very much appreciate your thoughts also Paul, hopefully you can place my listening environment into perspective and come up with your comment.  Cheers , M2m

 
Hi M2m,
 
Just what is your listening environment for the DAVE?  Will you be replacing the Nagra HD DAC with it?  Why don't we carry this comparison via PM.
 
Cheers,
 
Paul
 
Jul 17, 2016 at 6:58 AM Post #3,670 of 25,868
  I have finally gotten round to listen to the AQ jitterbug, as a quest to understand where the RF noise problems from the source was coming from - via the mains or the USB.
 
...
 
The best sound is still with a Win 10 lap-top on battery and for critical listening that is what I do. Battery operation and Dave's galvanic isolation means effectively perfect RF noise isolation from the source.
 
 
Rob

 
Rob, why is it that running a laptop from batteries removes RF pollution from the situation? Don't CPUs and memory and discs etc. generate RF noise whether or not they are mains powered?
 
Jul 17, 2016 at 11:25 PM Post #3,671 of 25,868
If I've understood Rob correctly, he isn't saying that they don't, only that they're not a problem or at least that they're variables which cannot be changed. A matter of reduction rather than complete elimination.
 
Jul 18, 2016 at 9:23 AM Post #3,672 of 25,868
   
Rob, why is it that running a laptop from batteries removes RF pollution from the situation? Don't CPUs and memory and discs etc. generate RF noise whether or not they are mains powered?

Yes all sources create RF noise. We have two ways of coupling RF noise - via the cables, or electromagnetically. This mode is stopped with Dave being made from a solid block of aluminium - it is extremely well screened. The mains, and the outputs are RF filtered too. On the USB, we have galvanic isolation, but that will not completely isolate Dave from the source, as it has 2pF of coupling capacitance on the galvanic isolation (all isolators have some level of coupling capacitance).
 
Now this coupling capacitance is important, as RF noise voltages from the source will inject a small current into Dave's ground plane - and due to the ground plane having a 0.5 ohms per square and about 1 nH inductance per square will create small internal RF voltages that is picked up by the analogue electronics which will then induce a tiny amount of IM distortion, and so noise floor modulation will increase - even though Dave has immeasurably small amounts of RF noise modulation, the small extra amount is audible.
 
But if you run the source from batteries, and have no ground connected to the lap-top, then there are no net currents flowing into Dave, as the isolation capacitance of the lap top to ground is much smaller than the 2 pF from the isolators; in effect you are now completely isolating the source from Dave via the direct USB connection and so no RF currents from the source can be injected into Dave's ground plane. That's why this mode sounds a bit smoother and warmer than mains powering the lap-top.
 
Having said all that, we are talking about very minor stuff here; it's not the icing on the cake but making sure the icing is flat to 1 micron rather than 0.1 mm...Before the galvanic isolation I used to get huge differences from sources if they were mains powered - now we are talking about a small change that is only audible on AB tests. When I listen to music I don't bother disconnecting the lap-top - only when doing serious testing.   
 
Rob
 
Jul 18, 2016 at 9:52 AM Post #3,673 of 25,868
A new question for Rob Watts.
 
Do you detect any difference in the sound output from a DAC, depending on whether the laptop has a traditional hard drive or a SSD?
My assumption has been that the traditional hard drive would generate more electrical 'noise', but is this assumption true? 
 
Jul 18, 2016 at 10:55 AM Post #3,674 of 25,868
Hmm. It depends very much upon the DAC. I would be very surprised if you can hear it with Dave, and almost certainly not with battery operation on the source. But I would not be surprised if SSD was better without galvanic isolation on the USB, and/or with DAC's that did not have RF filtering on the PSU.
 
Rob
 
Jul 18, 2016 at 11:25 AM Post #3,675 of 25,868
  Hmm. It depends very much upon the DAC. I would be very surprised if you can hear it with Dave, and almost certainly not with battery operation on the source. But I would not be surprised if SSD was better without galvanic isolation on the USB, and/or with DAC's that did not have RF filtering on the PSU.
 
Rob

 
Thanks Rob, I was thinking in terms of Chord DACs.
I have the SSD to upgrade my laptop, because there are other benefits like faster bootup, and lower power consumption, but I was curious if it would also improve the use of my laptop to drive my Mojo (and whichever DAC I upgrade to next).
 
I can use the optical output from my TV and desktop pc, as the sources for my Mojo, but I don't see any current laptops with optical outputs on sale, so obtaining a noise-free USB signal is the alternative goal. 
normal_smile .gif

 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top