[TheAttorney]

@rkt31, HQP does support ASIO drivers - I've used JPlay driver in the past (not with DAVE), but will be trying DAVE's own driver in the next few days. This whole Roon/HQP/ASIO/mR thing is getting a bit complicated, and I can't quite see which bit of each s/w is residing in which bit of h/w between the source file and the DAC, but I'll continue that on the more appropriate thread.
 
On a completely different topic whillst I'm here, I finally got my energy meter out, with the following results on DAVE's energy usage:
 

1. DAVE playing music = approx 17W or 27VA
2. Stopping the music results in approx 0.5W drop
3. Switching off the display results in approx 1.5W drop
4. Standy = 6W

 
So the earlier HFN report of 18W was right after all. The big difference between W and VA readings show that voltage and current are quite a bit out of phase. Which isn't necessariy a bad thing - just observing.
 
Edit: these are approximate values because it's only a cheapo meter, and with resolution of 1W, which means that I have to extrapolate fractional values based on how the readings flip between the higher and lower values. But it does help decide if the Standby function is worth using or not. I know that Rob W has said DAVE sounds great even from cold, but I like to make up my own mind.

 

[shuttlepod]

  When it comes to lossless 16/44 files played through Audirvana, is there any real benefit to using Roon/HQPlayer/microRendu with DAVE? I have a massive classical CD library and I am slowly transitioning to digital audio and I want to commit to the right platform/setup before I venture down any one path. The issue with Roon is that it does not support the AFP protocol whereas Audirvana does and I would have to make significant changes to my network to switch over to SMB to get Roon and a DAVE working. Is the sound quality of Roon/HQPlayer/microRendu etc. with DAVE worth the headache or should a say with AFP+Audirvana? 

I can't help you there, iDesign, as I don't even know what the AFP protocol is. I guess you might try raising the question at computeraudiophile if you haven't already, as there would likely be a bigger community there who could help. It seems, though, that the only person who could really answer your question is someone who has directly compared SQ of Roon/HQPlayer/microRendu to AFP + Audirvana. Not sure how many folks that would include. 

 

[ecwl]

I'm waiting for more people (even though I trust Romaz) to discuss whether it's worthwhile to upgrade to a Roon/HQPlayer/microRendu setup as it'll be somewhat costly for me but more importantly potentially a huge hassle with a completely different setup than what I currently have where my Windows 10 CAPSv3 Carbon plays music off my NAS to the DAVE and it sounds pretty darn amazing already.
That said, perhaps iDesign can tell us more about the current setup in terms of which Mac, power connections, etc. as we may be able to provide more pointers.


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[kennyb123]

When it comes to lossless 16/44 files played through Audirvana, is there any real benefit to using Roon/HQPlayer/microRendu with DAVE? I have a massive classical CD library and I am slowly transitioning to digital audio and I want to commit to the right platform/setup before I venture down any one path. The issue with Roon is that it does not support the AFP protocol whereas Audirvana does and I would have to make significant changes to my network to switch over to SMB to get Roon and a DAVE working. Is the sound quality of Roon/HQPlayer/microRendu etc. with DAVE worth the headache or should a say with AFP+Audirvana? 

The microRendu will typically be a significant upgrade over directly driving a DAC with A+ running on Mac. I say typically becaus the reports suggest that the DAVE is less sensitive to the source than other DACs.

As far as the AFP protocol, usually adding SMB protocol support is as simple as clicking a checkbox. On what kind of device is your music stored?

 

[romaz]

 

1. DAVE playing music = approx 17W or 27VA
2. Stopping the music results in approx 0.5W drop
3. Switching off the display results in approx 1.5W drop
4. Standy = 6W

 

Thanks for posting this.  I am getting similar readings of 18 watts while playing music.

 

[iDesign]

I'm waiting for more people (even though I trust Romaz) to discuss whether it's worthwhile to upgrade to a Roon/HQPlayer/microRendu setup as it'll be somewhat costly for me but more importantly potentially a huge hassle with a completely different setup than what I currently have where my Windows 10 CAPSv3 Carbon plays music off my NAS to the DAVE and it sounds pretty darn amazing already.
That said, perhaps iDesign can tell us more about the current setup in terms of which Mac, power connections, etc. as we may be able to provide more pointers.


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I will also continue to watch this space and follow Romaz's posts which I find to be pretty interesting. I will share my impressions -if- I decide to invest more time into configuring Roon/HQPlayer with my network. At the moment Roon lacks support for AFP and Audio Unit plugins and those two limitations are significant for my needs. I have received great support from Damien Plisson in configuring Audirvana to be the primary interface for my home's Macintosh based network audio system.
 
Quote:

The microRendu will typically be a significant upgrade over directly driving a DAC with A+ running on Mac. I say typically becaus the reports suggest that the DAVE is less sensitive to the source than other DACs.

As far as the AFP protocol, usually adding SMB protocol support is as simple as clicking a checkbox. On what kind of device is your music stored?

 
Interesting, I will setup Roon/HQPlayer/microRendu separately and run it off of my network to see what the gains are. I have approximately 5,000+ lossless CDs stored on three 3TB Apple Time Capsules which use AFP. Im not interested in moving to SMB/2/3 since I use the network with other devices/services. 

 

[ecwl]

My point is that if iDesign runs a MacBook via Ethernet on battery to DAVE with the monitor mostly off (if possible), I suspect the sonic difference is not big compared to microRendu. But if there is a big old generation iMac directly connected to DAVE and the iMac and DAVE are plugged into the same power supply/conditioner/strip, iDesign might get more bang for the buck just isolating the iMac from the rest of the audio system by plugging in the iMac to a power socket that's further away from the audio system.


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[romaz]

  I think what is most interesting to DAVE owners and owners of Chord dacs generally is that it may be possible to attain greater SQ by using HQPlayer as a pure playback engine without using its filters or any upsampling. Some users have reported that Roon/HQPlayer/NAA mode sounds clearly superior to Roon/RAAT mode without using any of HQP's many special filters and DSD upsampling. One of those people is my friend Ken, who has compared the two modes with his Chord Mojo. See http://www.computeraudiophile.com/showpost.php?p=547561. He just emailed to tell me that he has never heard better DSD than right now through his Mojo using HQPlayer in NAA mode with the microRendu. 
 
Interestingly, my friend tells me that when he tried upsampling with HQPlayer to DSD256 on the Mojo (using HQPlayer's default setting), he preferred playback at the native sample rate. This would tend to confirm Rob's point above. But the caveat is that my friend hasn't really played around with different settings in HQP, so that conclusion is still premature.  
 

Quote:
 

  When it comes to lossless 16/44 files played through Audirvana, is there any real benefit to using Roon/HQPlayer/microRendu with DAVE?
 

 

I'm waiting for more people (even though I trust Romaz) to discuss whether it's worthwhile to upgrade to a Roon/HQPlayer/microRendu setup as it'll be somewhat costly for me but more importantly potentially a huge hassle with a completely different setup than what I currently have where my Windows 10 CAPSv3 Carbon plays music off my NAS to the DAVE and it sounds pretty darn amazing already.

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I have just spent last night and this morning listening and comparing Roon direct to DAVE vs Roon to HQ Player to DAVE and have been listening to a variety of 16/44 PCM, 24/192 PCM, DXD, DSD128 and DSD256 files that are very familiar to me.  I have also tested Tidal streaming through HQ Player, something I did not realize was possible.  This is my first time to experience HQ Player with my DAVE, Esau, and so this experience is brand new to me.  It's been a long time since I've used Audirvana and so I cannot make any comments on how it might directly compare.
 
Here is my schematic that another user suggested and that Andrew Gillis has endorsed.  Obviously, in my case, substitute my DAVE for the PS Audio DirectStream.  HQ Player is running on my Windows machine, Roon Server is running on my sonicTransporter and the microRendu is running in Roon/HQ Player/NAA mode:
 

 
Here are my early listening observations:
 
PCM files:
 
With no upsampling/filtering and no dithering, Roon alone vs Roon/HQP sound identical.  Even in my system that I consider to be very resolving with all of my HF cables, I cannot tell a difference.
 
With no upsampling/filtering but with TPDF dithering enabled, there is a noticeable difference in favor of Roon/HQP.  Both sound very good but with TPDF dithering, my 16/44 files come to life more.  Transitions are more authoritative and there is better layering.  There appears to be more air around voices and instruments also.  I am hearing no downside with HQP in the chain and the signal being fed to the DAVE remains bit-perfect.  The partnering between Roon/HQP/microRendu is seamless.  Obviously, much testing and configuring have been done by Roon, HQP and Sonore to enable this seamless compatibility.  The delta is not huge but there is no need to blind test as the difference is fairly clear.
 
With upsampling/filtering turned on, it sounds good but not as good as with it off.  There is a definite loss of depth.  DAVE clearly upsamples better than HQP even when I upsample to 768kHz PCM or DSD7 256+FS.
 
DSD files:
 
With upsampling/filtering off and dithering off, once again, I hear no difference.
 
With upsampling/filtering off and dithering set to TPDF, once again, Roon/HQP sounds a bit better.
 
With upsampling/filtering on, once again, it sounds slightly worse. I even transcoded to PCM 768kHz since DAVE is a superior PCM DAC and native DSD sounds better.  Definitely, leave your file in its native format. 
 
There are other dither modes I will need to test but TPDF seems to be a good way to go.
 
Based on these early observations, it would appear to me that HQ Player used as a player without any oversampling or filtering but with TPDF dithering is superior to Roon by itself (to my ears) with the DAVE.  I would agree that upsampling should be left to the DAVE and I find no advantage to transcoding from one format to another.  HQ Player without Roon suffers from a clunky and unattractive interface and would be much less enjoyable from a usability standpoint without Roon.  Roon + HQ Player + mR in NAA mode seems to result in a definite improvement.  Unfortunately for me, another expense.
 
As a side note, if you wish to use HQP with Roon and your mR, you cannot use ASIO or Wasapi as a back end, you will need to use "Network Audio Adapter".  This means you can't utilize Chord's native DSD option but DoP seems to work just fine.
 

 
 

 

[romaz]

My point is that if iDesign runs a MacBook via Ethernet on battery to DAVE with the monitor mostly off (if possible), I suspect the sonic difference is not big compared to microRendu. But if there is a big old generation iMac directly connected to DAVE and the iMac and DAVE are plugged into the same power supply/conditioner/strip, iDesign might get more bang for the buck just isolating the iMac from the rest of the audio system by plugging in the iMac to a power socket that's further away from the audio system.


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I am not finding this to be true at all.  My new Macbook running off battery and connected to DAVE via USB is nowhere close to the mR even with the basic iFi power supply.  Not that the Macbook sounds bad but the mR definitely sounds better.  For $690 including the iFi power supply, there's not much risk to try it.

 

[kennyb123]

   
I have approximately 5,000+ lossless CDs stored on three 3TB Apple Time Capsules which use AFP. Im not interested in moving to SMB/2/3 since I use the network with other devices/services. 

 
I'm almost certain that I've connected to my Time Capsule from Windows.  I will confirm when I get home.

 

[shuttlepod]

Quote:

  Quote:
 
 
I have just spent last night and this morning listening and comparing Roon direct to DAVE vs Roon to HQ Player to DAVE and have been listening to a variety of 16/44 PCM, 24/192 PCM, DXD, DSD128 and DSD256 files that are very familiar to me. 
 

 
Leave it to Roy to test out our theories with the DAVE and report in his usual outstandingly detailed fashion. Thank you! (And I'm sorry if I helped send you on the road to additional expense!) 
 
I find it interesting that my friend Ken found a significant difference using Roon/HQP/NAA on all files, without dithering, versus using Roon/RAAT. My assumption is that this difference can be chalked up to the difference between Mojo and DAVE, with DAVE being less susceptible to upstream changes in software. It sounds like this difference, being clearly positive and audible according to Roy, is probably well worth the cost of purchasing HQP (assuming you have the setup to take advantage of it). 
 
Roy, do you have any theories as to why HQP sounds better with dithering set to TPDF?
 
Another observation is that Rob's upsampling and filtering in the DAVE must be truly world class, as there is no shortage of people who think that HQP is superior to any DAC's implementation of upsampling and filtering (maybe they haven't heard DAVE, or DAVE running HQP upsampling vs. DAVE running HQP native). 
 
Finally, I have to say it is just a little disappointing that, as fantastic as DAVE is, it is not the superman DAC that I once imagined -- in other words, it is still susceptible to upstream hardware and software and noise issues, and we still need to pay attention to all of this stuff and make judgments about what improvements are cost effective. On the other hand, having heard what DAVE can sound like being fed directly by a noisy Mac computer and a cheap ten year old USB cord, I can only imagine what it will sound like when optimized with all of these things we've been discussing. Pretty exciting times for digital audio.

 

[romaz]

   
Leave it to Roy to test out our theories with the DAVE and report in his usual outstandingly detailed fashion. Thank you! (And I'm sorry if I helped send you on the road to additional expense!) 
 
I find it interesting that my friend Ken found a significant difference using Roon/HQP/NAA on all files, without dithering, versus using Roon/RAAT. My assumption is that this difference can be chalked up to the difference between Mojo and DAVE, with DAVE being less susceptible to upstream changes in software. It sounds like this difference, being clearly positive and audible according to Roy, is probably well worth the cost of purchasing HQP (assuming you have the setup to take advantage of it). 
 
Roy, do you have any theories as to why HQP sounds better with dithering set to TPDF?
 
Another observation is that Rob's upsampling and filtering in the DAVE must be truly world class, as there is no shortage of people who think that HQP is superior to any DAC's implementation of upsampling and filtering (maybe they haven't heard DAVE, or DAVE running HQP upsampling vs. DAVE running HQP native). 
 
Finally, I have to say it is just a little disappointing that, as fantastic as DAVE is, it is not the superman DAC that I once imagined -- in other words, it is still susceptible to upstream hardware and software and noise issues, and we still need to pay attention to all of this stuff and make judgments about what improvements are cost effective. On the other hand, having heard what DAVE can sound like being fed directly by a noisy Mac computer and a cheap ten year old USB cord, I can only imagine what it will sound like when optimized with all of these things we've been discussing. Pretty exciting times for digital audio.

Thanks, Jon.
 
I'm still trying to understand what the different dithering options represent but they amount to noise shaping from what I can tell.  I went with it because according to the Signalyst manual, this is the best all around choice for all files, especially 16/44..
 
Yes, I've convinced myself Rob's methods of upsampling is superior but I can see why people like HQP.
 
As for the DAVE's susceptibility to what's upstream, with respect to jitter, which is a huge deal for any other DAC, I continue to believe it is absolutely insensitive.  With respect to RF noise, even Rob himself has indicated he can hear a difference with his Windows laptop on battery vs plugged into the wall and so this sensitivity is more relative than absolute.  As to the difference between different software players, the difference between HQP and Roon by itself seems to be this dithering.  Whether this is an artificial coloration or something else, I have to say I prefer it.
 
I do believe that if you connected your DAVE to a cheap laptop with a cheap USB cable and standard mains cable, you are still in rarefied air as far as SQ.  In this way, the DAVE is not fussy and remains a very unique and special piece.  Like all things, even the DAVE can be optimized and I believe that is what we're all trying to accomplish here.

 

[romaz]

  I've only had my DAVE for a few hours but already, holy smokes!!  This thing is an absolute beast!  I'm letting run with my HD600's and already WOW.  This is clearly a massive step up from anything I've previously experienced.  

I'd love to hear what you think with the DAVE and your DNA Stratus, Paul.

 

[ecwl]

My point is that if iDesign runs a MacBook via Ethernet on battery to DAVE with the monitor mostly off (if possible), I suspect the sonic difference is not big compared to microRendu. But if there is a big old generation iMac directly connected to DAVE and the iMac and DAVE are plugged into the same power supply/conditioner/strip, iDesign might get more bang for the buck just isolating the iMac from the rest of the audio system by plugging in the iMac to a power socket that's further away from the audio system.


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I am not finding this to be true at all.  My new Macbook running off battery and connected to DAVE via USB is nowhere close to the mR even with the basic iFi power supply.  Not that the Macbook sounds bad but the mR definitely sounds better.  For $690 including the iFi power supply, there's not much risk to try it.

Hmmm. Interesting. I wonder if the issue is the lack of dedicated USB hardware and power supply management or if microRendu is so far ahead of other designs. Still in addition to the $690, there's the HQPlayer cost because I need a program that can do parametric EQ before sending the signal to microRendu, and I have no intention of using Roon so I would have to figure out how to make Tidal and JRiver work with HQPlayer on a desktop that I would now have to leave on all the time and then figure out how to remote control the desktop so that it can send the correct signals from HQPlayer to microRendu. If that doesn't work, I would have to purchase Roon and port my JRiver library to Roon. Sounds like too much work as I still have thousands of hours of music I just want to listen to instead of fiddling around with my computer audio setup for now.


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[Jawed]

With no upsampling/filtering but with TPDF dithering enabled, there is a noticeable difference in favor of Roon/HQP.  Both sound very good but with TPDF dithering, my 16/44 files come to life more.  Transitions are more authoritative and there is better layering.  There appears to be more air around voices and instruments also.  I am hearing no downside with HQP in the chain and the signal being fed to the DAVE remains bit-perfect.

Can someone explain why applying dither is able to leave the music "bit perfect"?