CHORD ELECTRONICS DAVE

[Triode User]

I know it’s hard but if one wanted to quantify the difference in percentage of the TT2 vs Dave …. Would TT2 be 80% as good?

I personally would put TT2 at about 50% of a stock Dave but that is ignoring the TT2 headphone output prowess because I never use headphones. That 50% assessment can be roughly translated as ‘not in the same ball park’.

 

[Somatic]

I personally would put TT2 at about 50% of a stock Dave but that is ignoring the TT2 headphone output prowess because I never use headphones. That 50% assessment can be roughly translated as ‘not in the same ball park’.

Wow.

 

[ObjectiveSubjectivist]

It's always hard to put number on such things.
On top of that some people wouldn't hear much of the difference.

To my ears the difference is quite profound. It's big to the point I have hard time listening to TT2 after owning Dave for ~2years. (Same with all other dacs)

 

[TheAttorney]

The MU1 may not be a great match if one uses Mscaler either. I am wondering about the new Statement with Sean’s ARC6-based PSU… Antipodes has a new flagship coming in August as well!

Yes, if you go for the MU1 then the Mscaler becomes redundant. I tried MU1 to DAVE with and without Mscaler in between and it was immediately clear that the MScaler was getting in the way. This was great for my downsizing objectives, but if you must keep your MScaler then the MU1 is not the right server for you.

EDIT: Secondly, the Mscaler doesn't have AES or spdif/RCA inputs, so I had to use an RCA/BNC converter plug which may have compromised the tests a bit.

No doubt the ARC6 Statement will be wonderful, but with a big hike in prices. More of a K50 rival price wise.

 

[adrianm]

I know it’s hard but if one wanted to quantify the difference in percentage of the TT2 vs Dave …. Would TT2 be 80% as good?

To me, after owning the Mojo for 3 years, the Hugo 2 was not a worthwhile improvement, the TT2 was better, but nothing to make me want to upgrade, even with the M-scaler. Dave was something entirely different and it just blew my mind compared to mTT2.
I struggled to quantify any differences before I bought it, but in the end, I felt it was either Dave or sticking to my Mojo. Of course, now i only view stock Dave as a good starting point that can be massively upgraded.

 

[Powersquat]

I know it’s hard but if one wanted to quantify the difference in percentage of the TT2 vs Dave …. Would TT2 be 80% as good?

Being a relatively recent convert from TT2 to Dave I've spent many listening hours pondering this very question.

I'm exclusively a 2 channel listener and Mscaler has been in my system with both TT2 and Dave, connected withWave Stream cables. In this configuration I believe Dave outperforms the TT2 by some margin, an overall percentage is difficult to quantify, however bass articulation, depth and control are a particular strong point for Dave and in my system and to my ears the TT2 could only be placed at about 50% of Dave's bass performance.

Similarly when it comes to overall detail the Dave is so much sharper, this may not be a good thing for everyone, but it's something I value, in this instance I'd place the TT2 at about 60%.

Soundstage width and depth, the dave again improves over the TT2, again I'd put the difference at about 60%.

The holographic detail offered by Dave is so compelling, the TT2 just can't match this.

I honestly believe the TT2 is a great DAC, but it's unfair to compare it directly with the Dave, after all a new Dave is 100% more expensive

I think the better the source the more Dave shines over the TT2, I've recently purchased a PS Audio PST Transport and I've been blown away by the improvement, The PsT Dave combo is just sublime, there is an improvement when the TT2 is paired with the PST, however the percentage is markedly lower than when Dave is placed back into the system.

Last week I ordered a pair of Wave Storm cables and eagerly await their arrival, I suspect moving from the Stream cable to the Storm will further highlight the differences between Dave and TT2. I will report back with my findings.

 

[Somatic]

To me, after owning the Mojo for 3 years, the Hugo 2 was not a worthwhile improvement, the TT2 was better, but nothing to make me want to upgrade, even with the M-scaler. Dave was something entirely different and it just blew my mind compared to mTT2.
I struggled to quantify any differences before I bought it, but in the end, I felt it was either Dave or sticking to my Mojo. Of course, now i only view stock Dave as a good starting point that can be massively upgraded.

Which upgrades?

 

[Somatic]

Being a relatively recent convert from TT2 to Dave I've spent many listening hours pondering this very question.

I'm exclusively a 2 channel listener and Mscaler has been in my system with both TT2 and Dave, connected withWave Stream cables. In this configuration I believe Dave outperforms the TT2 by some margin, an overall percentage is difficult to quantify, however bass articulation, depth and control are a particular strong point for Dave and in my system and to my ears the TT2 could only be placed at about 50% of Dave's bass performance.

Similarly when it comes to overall detail the Dave is so much sharper, this may not be a good thing for everyone, but it's something I value, in this instance I'd place the TT2 at about 60%.

Soundstage width and depth, the dave again improves over the TT2, again I'd put the difference at about 60%.

The holographic detail offered by Dave is so compelling, the TT2 just can't match this.

I honestly believe the TT2 is a great DAC, but it's unfair to compare it directly with the Dave, after all a new Dave is 100% more expensive

I think the better the source the more Dave shines over the TT2, I've recently purchased a PS Audio PST Transport and I've been blown away by the improvement, The PsT Dave combo is just sublime, there is an improvement when the TT2 is paired with the PST, however the percentage is markedly lower than when Dave is placed back into the system.

Last week I ordered a pair of Wave Storm cables and eagerly await their arrival, I suspect moving from the Stream cable to the Storm will further highlight the differences between Dave and TT2. I will report back with my findings.

Thank you for the detailed response. Dave seems like a great purchase.

 

[audio_1]

Yes, if you go for the MU1 then the Mscaler becomes redundant. I tried MU1 to DAVE with and without Mscaler in between and it was immediately clear that the MScaler was getting in the way. This was great for my downsizing objectives, but if you must keep your MScaler then the MU1 is not the right server for you.

EDIT: Secondly, the Mscaler doesn't have AES or spdif/RCA inputs, so I had to use an RCA/BNC converter plug which may have compromised the tests a bit.

No doubt the ARC6 Statement will be wonderful, but with a big hike in prices. More of a K50 rival price wise.

How can the MU1 replace the Mscaler, it doesn't have a million-tap digital filter? The comparison can only me made with the Mscaler optically connected to the Dave with Opto-Dx, separate power supplies and physically separated by a few metres. With the Opto-DX, and separate power supplies the digital input on the Mscaler is irrevalant.

 

[adrianm]

Which upgrades?

If you're not careful, this is a question that might waste you years of your life LOL.
Some people swear by cables, some by 25k "audiophile" Pc's , there's different ways to go about it. Most of it does make a difference. Just remember: for every cable that "improves" the sound, there's a box that does it much better and cheaper

I've tried for years to reconcile the two sides:
1) Head-fi mentality : more expensive is better, improvements combined with status symbols.
2) ASR mentality : Clean power or different streamers make no difference with well designed gear and people from 1) are crazy

After testing it myself for years, I've found that the truth is somewhere in the middle:
By ASR's logic, Dave is poorly designed, because clean power matters hugely, as does the source. And it's not magic or audiophile bs, it's just that Dave is very sensitive to noise, I doubt this is any different with other high end gear. Soundstage size, depth, imaging, and timbre all greatly depend on how much noise is entering Dave.
Bits are bits, but noise matters, and some say, clocks matter too. As immune to jitter as Rob claims Dave is. I have no opinion on this as I've not tested it myself. Since the SRC-DX re-clocks the USB stream when converting to SPDIF, adding a clock in front of it makes absolutely no sense. Same with the M-scaler I would say.
As much as I've tried to optimize it, the M-scaler is a noise bomb, so i got rid of it. What it does is great, but you can get a bigger improvement with Hqplayer/PGGB, imo, with a lot less noise. It's like adding another M-scaler on top of the M-scaler. Plus you have options.
I don't mean noise you can hear, but once you get rid of it, the imaging improves, the background cleans up and there is an addictive "calmness" to the sound. What people call "analogue" sounding.
There's two things I recommend you try once you get your Dave and funds allow :

A) Filter the power, it's true, Dave's PSU sucks. It's worse than TT2 most likely. Do you need to go out and buy an 8k power supply? Haven't tried it myself, but probably not.
I've started with an Isotek Sirius mains filter, moved up to an Isotek Aquarius, and the improvements with each were shocking. Tighter/deeper bass, better depth ,separation , more 3d sound, and that addictive calmness. Stock Dave is a fatiguing wall of sound in comparison. Adding the M-scaler fatigue is much greater, even on battery.
I'm so sold on clean power being the biggest factor for improvement out of everything I've tried, that i just placed an order on an Isotek Genesis One for Dave without being able to hear or return it. Unfortunately it's still not here yet so I can't comment on it.

B1) After A is sorted, noise entering from your source (streamer, pc) will be even more apparent. You have multiple solutions here, depending on if you want to keep M-scaler or not. If you do want it...Ferrite cables/Opto-DX/battery for the M-scaler are your best bet.
B2) Intona+SRC-DX+DC-block + any pc/streamer Chord USB input does suck. I feel like this chain is amazing value. HQP+SRC-DX beats M-scaler for a lot less money imo. And this isn't a savings thing, if the new M-scaler will be better I will gladly buy it. I use my PC for the above, but there is still noise, which is why i've plugged my 1000w PC into my power conditioner. This combo everything I've ever heard from the M-scaler (on battery for noise reduction).
The Intona USB isolator is pretty amazing as well. In combination with the Audiowise DC-Blocks (block direct currents as the name implies) it's actually pretty close to what the mains conditioner does. I'm currently in the process of A/B-ing this chain vs the conditioner to see if i can get rid of it and clear some space once the Genesis One arrives.

So long story short (ish), the only improvements (Not changes, plenty of snake oil that actually makes things worse) to Dave I could reliably A/B are the ones consistent with science, not audiophile marketing.
Reduce noise into Dave and you'll be rewarded. Whether you want to go the route above, or by buying Taiko, Grimm, or other solutions, it's up to you. Just know that there are massive improvements to be had quite easily. As bittersweet as that is for a device at Dave's price. Don't let those huge price tags put you off Dave.
Once an all in one comes along that beats the B2 chain, i'll gladly get rid of it all to reduce box count even further. I've found that the more active components you add (with their own PSU), the more noise you add. And measurements back this up.
Till then, for my headphone use, this is the best sound I've been able to get, but I'm confident the Genesis One will further improve things.

 

[zen87192]

I’m currently using a Silent Angel M1T Streamer with a Forrester F1 LPS via an N8 Network Switch. This is being fed by a British Telecom (BT) WiFi Mesh Disc that receives signals from my BT Hub in the next room which is about 20ft away. The WiFi Mesh Disc has an Ethernet socket on the back which I use to connect to my N8 Network Switch. Everything seems to be brilliant. As the connection to the Silent Angel N8 Network Switch is from the WiFi Disc the Chain is broken with regards to noise being transmitted along the Network cable. Am I correct in saying this? Everything sounds fantastic!
I’m also about to try the SRC-DX via USB from the Silent Angel to BNC of the DAVE.

Thank you in advance to all who chime in with their comments.

 

[JTbbb]

If you're not careful, this is a question that might waste you years of your life LOL.
Some people swear by cables, some by 25k "audiophile" Pc's , there's different ways to go about it. Most of it does make a difference. Just remember: for every cable that "improves" the sound, there's a box that does it much better and cheaper

I've tried for years to reconcile the two sides:
1) Head-fi mentality : more expensive is better, improvements combined with status symbols.
2) ASR mentality : Clean power or different streamers make no difference with well designed gear and people from 1) are crazy

After testing it myself for years, I've found that the truth is somewhere in the middle:
By ASR's logic, Dave is poorly designed, because clean power matters hugely, as does the source. And it's not magic or audiophile bs, it's just that Dave is very sensitive to noise, I doubt this is any different with other high end gear. Soundstage size, depth, imaging, and timbre all greatly depend on how much noise is entering Dave.
Bits are bits, but noise matters, and some say, clocks matter too. As immune to jitter as Rob claims Dave is. I have no opinion on this as I've not tested it myself. Since the SRC-DX re-clocks the USB stream when converting to SPDIF, adding a clock in front of it makes absolutely no sense. Same with the M-scaler I would say.
As much as I've tried to optimize it, the M-scaler is a noise bomb, so i got rid of it. What it does is great, but you can get a bigger improvement with Hqplayer/PGGB, imo, with a lot less noise. It's like adding another M-scaler on top of the M-scaler. Plus you have options.
I don't mean noise you can hear, but once you get rid of it, the imaging improves, the background cleans up and there is an addictive "calmness" to the sound. What people call "analogue" sounding.
There's two things I recommend you try once you get your Dave and funds allow :

A) Filter the power, it's true, Dave's PSU sucks. It's worse than TT2 most likely. Do you need to go out and buy an 8k power supply? Haven't tried it myself, but probably not.
I've started with an Isotek Sirius mains filter, moved up to an Isotek Aquarius, and the improvements with each were shocking. Tighter/deeper bass, better depth ,separation , more 3d sound, and that addictive calmness. Stock Dave is a fatiguing wall of sound in comparison. Adding the M-scaler fatigue is much greater, even on battery.
I'm so sold on clean power being the biggest factor for improvement out of everything I've tried, that i just placed an order on an Isotek Genesis One for Dave without being able to hear or return it. Unfortunately it's still not here yet so I can't comment on it.

B1) After A is sorted, noise entering from your source (streamer, pc) will be even more apparent. You have multiple solutions here, depending on if you want to keep M-scaler or not. If you do want it...Ferrite cables/Opto-DX/battery for the M-scaler are your best bet.
B2) Intona+SRC-DX+DC-block + any pc/streamer Chord USB input does suck. I feel like this chain is amazing value. HQP+SRC-DX beats M-scaler for a lot less money imo. And this isn't a savings thing, if the new M-scaler will be better I will gladly buy it. I use my PC for the above, but there is still noise, which is why i've plugged my 1000w PC into my power conditioner. This combo everything I've ever heard from the M-scaler (on battery for noise reduction).
The Intona USB isolator is pretty amazing as well. In combination with the Audiowise DC-Blocks (block direct currents as the name implies) it's actually pretty close to what the mains conditioner does. I'm currently in the process of A/B-ing this chain vs the conditioner to see if i can get rid of it and clear some space once the Genesis One arrives.

So long story short (ish), the only improvements (Not changes, plenty of snake oil that actually makes things worse) to Dave I could reliably A/B are the ones consistent with science, not audiophile marketing.
Reduce noise into Dave and you'll be rewarded. Whether you want to go the route above, or by buying Taiko, Grimm, or other solutions, it's up to you. Just know that there are massive improvements to be had quite easily. As bittersweet as that is for a device at Dave's price. Don't let those huge price tags put you off Dave.
Once an all in one comes along that beats the B2 chain, i'll gladly get rid of it all to reduce box count even further. I've found that the more active components you add (with their own PSU), the more noise you add. And measurements back this up.
Till then, for my headphone use, this is the best sound I've been able to get, but I'm confident the Genesis One will further improve things.

Just as a counter to all the above, I am not suggesting it doesn’t improve things. I have a Innuos Zenith Mk3, MScaler, Wave Cables, DAVE. Etude 2 channel and Tube Amp headphones. All on standard power and am very happy with the sound

 

[zen87192]

Just as a counter to all the above, I am not suggesting it doesn’t improve things. I have a Innuos Zenith Mk3, MScaler, Wave Cables, DAVE. Etude 2 channel and Tube Amp headphones. All on standard power and am very happy with the sound

Too true… here’s my ‘Lounge‘ system all on standard power out of the wall… all great and sounds fantastic.Playing out of Klipsch Forte III speakers ‘it rocks’!

 

[adrianm]

Just as a counter to all the above, I am not suggesting it doesn’t improve things. I have a Innuos Zenith Mk3, MScaler, Wave Cables, DAVE. Etude 2 channel and Tube Amp headphones. All on standard power and am very happy with the sound

I was happy with stock Dave +M-scaler before I tried something new. There's also the possibility that if you're using an external amp, bad power into Dave might matter less, since it has its own filtering.
To each his own, but I now understand why people rave about the DC4 even without hearing it, due to some tests i did, i just chose to go another way for improving Dave's 12$ psu.
At the end of the day, convenience matters, and replacing the M-scaler with a PC might not work for everyone, or be worth the hassle.

Too true… here’s my ‘Lounge‘ system all on standard power out of the wall… all great and sounds fantastic.Playing out of Klipsch Forte III speakers ‘it rocks’!

Well that's probably because those have adequate PSU, as opposed to Dave.

Am I correct in saying this? Everything sounds fantastic!
I’m also about to try the SRC-DX via USB from the Silent Angel to BNC of the DAVE.

Thank you in advance to all who chime in with their comments.

Yep, looks great From what I've been able to surmise and test, noise only matters at the stage when you're going from digital to analogue. It's cheaper and more efficient to cut the link as close to your dac as possible. The SRC-DX itself also has an impressive noise reduction effect. Dan says this is due to turning off Dave's internal USB chipset. Whether it's that, filtering, or a combination of both, i'm not sure, but it's one of the most noticeable upgrades to Dave when using USB.
What i have found is that the DC-Blocks also help more than expected. While my mains filter helps with blocking AC noise, it does nothing for stray DC currents. From what i can see they are actually just some rebranded Lab equipment filters, but at least they're not audiophile gear. Cheap enough to get a pair and try them with your BNC cables.
Or again, with a separate headphone amp, it might not matter. But i assume you're using those 4z's plugged into Dave.

 

[zen87192]

Yes... plugged directly in to DAVE... the LCD-5's