CHORD ELECTRONICS DAVE

[TheAttorney]

How can the MU1 replace the Mscaler, it doesn't have a million-tap digital filter? The comparison can only me made with the Mscaler optically connected to the Dave with Opto-Dx, separate power supplies and physically separated by a few metres. With the Opto-DX, and separate power supplies the digital input on the Mscaler is irrevalant.

The longer answer is on my posts on the Grimm MU1 thread at AS.

The shorter answer is that, as part of my downsizing objective, I compared my strongly modded NUC + HMS + a mountain of cable/box spaghetti vs MU1 with a single AES cable. HMS running at 16FS, MU1 running at 4FS. The MU1 won easily. At the time, I stated that this was probably more to do with the NUC than with any limitation of the HMS itself. The BNC and USB cables were of very high quality and, sadly, also very expensive.

I also tried the HMS between MU1 and DAVE, effectively upscaling from 4FS to 16FS (also tried 1FS to 16FS). I had the spdif/RCA/BNC cable limitation in order to do this test. In this particular chain, the HMS didn't improve the SQ and in fact seemed to slightly degrade it, but it could have been a cable limitation.

My objective was achieved: I significantly reduced my cable/box spaghetti whilst increasing SQ.
I don't care what the Opto-Dx can do, as that just increases cable/box spaghetti.
I don't care what other things I could have done to make the HMS sing better in this chain. I'd spent over a year carefully tweaking my NUC + HMS chain to what I considered to be a high standard. I had the components I had and I got the result I got. YMMV.

 

[saudio7]

If you're not careful, this is a question that might waste you years of your life LOL.
Some people swear by cables, some by 25k "audiophile" Pc's , there's different ways to go about it. Most of it does make a difference. Just remember: for every cable that "improves" the sound, there's a box that does it much better and cheaper

I've tried for years to reconcile the two sides:
1) Head-fi mentality : more expensive is better, improvements combined with status symbols.
2) ASR mentality : Clean power or different streamers make no difference with well designed gear and people from 1) are crazy

After testing it myself for years, I've found that the truth is somewhere in the middle:
By ASR's logic, Dave is poorly designed, because clean power matters hugely, as does the source. And it's not magic or audiophile bs, it's just that Dave is very sensitive to noise, I doubt this is any different with other high end gear. Soundstage size, depth, imaging, and timbre all greatly depend on how much noise is entering Dave.
Bits are bits, but noise matters, and some say, clocks matter too. As immune to jitter as Rob claims Dave is. I have no opinion on this as I've not tested it myself. Since the SRC-DX re-clocks the USB stream when converting to SPDIF, adding a clock in front of it makes absolutely no sense. Same with the M-scaler I would say.
As much as I've tried to optimize it, the M-scaler is a noise bomb, so i got rid of it. What it does is great, but you can get a bigger improvement with Hqplayer/PGGB, imo, with a lot less noise. It's like adding another M-scaler on top of the M-scaler. Plus you have options.
I don't mean noise you can hear, but once you get rid of it, the imaging improves, the background cleans up and there is an addictive "calmness" to the sound. What people call "analogue" sounding.
There's two things I recommend you try once you get your Dave and funds allow :

A) Filter the power, it's true, Dave's PSU sucks. It's worse than TT2 most likely. Do you need to go out and buy an 8k power supply? Haven't tried it myself, but probably not.
I've started with an Isotek Sirius mains filter, moved up to an Isotek Aquarius, and the improvements with each were shocking. Tighter/deeper bass, better depth ,separation , more 3d sound, and that addictive calmness. Stock Dave is a fatiguing wall of sound in comparison. Adding the M-scaler fatigue is much greater, even on battery.
I'm so sold on clean power being the biggest factor for improvement out of everything I've tried, that i just placed an order on an Isotek Genesis One for Dave without being able to hear or return it. Unfortunately it's still not here yet so I can't comment on it.

B1) After A is sorted, noise entering from your source (streamer, pc) will be even more apparent. You have multiple solutions here, depending on if you want to keep M-scaler or not. If you do want it...Ferrite cables/Opto-DX/battery for the M-scaler are your best bet.
B2) Intona+SRC-DX+DC-block + any pc/streamer Chord USB input does suck. I feel like this chain is amazing value. HQP+SRC-DX beats M-scaler for a lot less money imo. And this isn't a savings thing, if the new M-scaler will be better I will gladly buy it. I use my PC for the above, but there is still noise, which is why i've plugged my 1000w PC into my power conditioner. This combo everything I've ever heard from the M-scaler (on battery for noise reduction).
The Intona USB isolator is pretty amazing as well. In combination with the Audiowise DC-Blocks (block direct currents as the name implies) it's actually pretty close to what the mains conditioner does. I'm currently in the process of A/B-ing this chain vs the conditioner to see if i can get rid of it and clear some space once the Genesis One arrives.

So long story short (ish), the only improvements (Not changes, plenty of snake oil that actually makes things worse) to Dave I could reliably A/B are the ones consistent with science, not audiophile marketing.
Reduce noise into Dave and you'll be rewarded. Whether you want to go the route above, or by buying Taiko, Grimm, or other solutions, it's up to you. Just know that there are massive improvements to be had quite easily. As bittersweet as that is for a device at Dave's price. Don't let those huge price tags put you off Dave.
Once an all in one comes along that beats the B2 chain, i'll gladly get rid of it all to reduce box count even further. I've found that the more active components you add (with their own PSU), the more noise you add. And measurements back this up.
Till then, for my headphone use, this is the best sound I've been able to get, but I'm confident the Genesis One will further improve things.

Waiting for your feedback once you will get Isotek. I don’t use PC only streamers as source and I don’t have a problem with mscaler, maybe I don’t have best out of Dave, but that is my way.

 

[Triode User]

Wow.

And I think that is why Dave has stood the test of time. Going from Dave to ANY other DAC is a humbling experience (for the other DAC).

 

[jlbrach]

dave is a significantly better DAC..the TT2 offers a better headphone output for harder to drive HP's

 

[nwavesailor]

I hesitate to ask but............. does anyone use their iPhone (or Android) as a source?

It is small and easy to use with my iTunes music library as well as Tidal and powered is by a battery. I have a iPad that essentially does the same thing but is obviously bulkier to use while reclined in my favorite Stressless chair.

I am ready to be torched!

 

[MvRBE10]

I hesitate to ask but............. does anyone use their iPhone (or Android) as a source?

It is small and easy to use with my iTunes music library as well as Tidal and powered is by a battery. I have a iPad that essentially does the same thing but is obviously bulkier to use while reclined in my favorite Stressless chair.

I am ready to be torched!

I sometimes stream to my aurender from my iphone, childerns spotify lists or other crap they like. For partys or casual listening its fine.

 

[griff500]

I hesitate to ask but............. does anyone use their iPhone (or Android) as a source?

It is small and easy to use with my iTunes music library as well as Tidal and powered is by a battery. I have a iPad that essentially does the same thing but is obviously bulkier to use while reclined in my favorite Stressless chair.

I am ready to be torched!

Go and sit in the corner and have a strong word with yourself…

 

[Reactcore]

I hesitate to ask but............. does anyone use their iPhone (or Android) as a source?

It is small and easy to use with my iTunes music library as well as Tidal and powered is by a battery. I have a iPad that essentially does the same thing but is obviously bulkier to use while reclined in my favorite Stressless chair.

I am ready to be torched!

Android and ios both work just fine with Dave/HMS.
I use my old sock ipad2 with Netflix.
On my droid phone i watch youtube film stuff sometimes.

You should try Musi app on ios.. somehow it can take a higher bitstream from youtube (choose in settings) and no breaks for commercials only some banners which for a few $ can also be taken out.
Sounds marvelous with the right recording/shares.

Be sure your pad/phone has 3/4g off cause thats a RF generator.. Using Wifi is ok to my hearing.

 

[Reactcore]

I personally would put TT2 at about 50% of a stock Dave but that is ignoring the TT2 headphone output prowess because I never use headphones. That 50% assessment can be roughly translated as ‘not in the same ball park’.

I had my finger on the trigger for TT2.. but i knew in the end i would start wanting to take the final step.. so i skipped it and went straight for Dave bc now good 2nd hand offers can be found. After Rob said he hadnt start working on a Dave2 i took the plunge

No regrets

 

[sm60]

Looks like up sampling streamers are the latest fad. The new Lumin U2 mini seems similar, and also has USB :
https://www.luminmusic.com/lumin-u2-mini.html

After many many comparisons of USB streaming against redbook CD with my CEC TL0, using both my Dave/Blu2 and with a Lampi server/Pacific DAC, I have come to agree with Rob’s assessment. USB simply sucks. It just doesn’t have the life or verve that SPDIF based Redbook CD has using a top notch transport. I don‘t understand why, I’m guessing it’s all the extra preprocessing that you have to do with USB asynchronous protocol. I was hoping Lampi’s own DSD SuperKomputer with its huge linear power supply might narrow the gap. It has not. Folks who own the ultra Uber Taiko Extreme 100 pound server with its highly customized USB card say it’s the bees knees, but that’s a made to order highly pricey server with a long turnaround time, especially these days with supply chain problems. How about the Innuous USB reclocker? Anyone have good luck with that? I like the convenience of streaming and the vast pool of music, but I wish it didn’t sound so compressed, especially through Roon.

 

[sm60]

And I think that is why Dave has stood the test of time. Going from Dave to ANY other DAC is a humbling experience (for the other DAC).

Grump, not my experience comparing my Dave with my Lampi Pacific, but you have to remember that with the Lampi, you’re introducing tubes into the mix, especially humongous direct heated triodes. Just trying out what might be the most massive triode tube I’ve ever tried, the KR T-100 (crazy pic attached). This monster is however a gentle giant: music simply oozes out of it in a very unforced way. You can tune the Lampi in ways you can’t tune the Dave. For example, with the KR 242 tube, the Pacific is a dynamic powerhouse that simply stomps all over the Dave in terms of sheer slam bang dynamics (stock Dave, I caution to add!). But you have the obvious drawbacks with tubes. Some NOS triode tubes are very pricey (e.g., a quartet of NOS Western Electric 300Bs made 70-80 years ago can cost as much as the Dave!). But there are very cheap 300Bs you can buy for $100 or so. The Lampi is massive, 10 times larger than the Dave. Costs twice as much. So, no, I’m not suggesting this is a simple trade off. But if you want to hear a distinctly superior sound in ways that I believe only tubes can deliver, there’s no beating the Lampi. But if you don‘t like tubes, I agree, the Dave is a wunderkind of a solid state DAC that should hold its own for years to come.

 

[F208Frank]

If you're not careful, this is a question that might waste you years of your life LOL.
Some people swear by cables, some by 25k "audiophile" Pc's , there's different ways to go about it. Most of it does make a difference. Just remember: for every cable that "improves" the sound, there's a box that does it much better and cheaper

I've tried for years to reconcile the two sides:
1) Head-fi mentality : more expensive is better, improvements combined with status symbols.
2) ASR mentality : Clean power or different streamers make no difference with well designed gear and people from 1) are crazy

After testing it myself for years, I've found that the truth is somewhere in the middle:
By ASR's logic, Dave is poorly designed, because clean power matters hugely, as does the source. And it's not magic or audiophile bs, it's just that Dave is very sensitive to noise, I doubt this is any different with other high end gear. Soundstage size, depth, imaging, and timbre all greatly depend on how much noise is entering Dave.
Bits are bits, but noise matters, and some say, clocks matter too. As immune to jitter as Rob claims Dave is. I have no opinion on this as I've not tested it myself. Since the SRC-DX re-clocks the USB stream when converting to SPDIF, adding a clock in front of it makes absolutely no sense. Same with the M-scaler I would say.
As much as I've tried to optimize it, the M-scaler is a noise bomb, so i got rid of it. What it does is great, but you can get a bigger improvement with Hqplayer/PGGB, imo, with a lot less noise. It's like adding another M-scaler on top of the M-scaler. Plus you have options.
I don't mean noise you can hear, but once you get rid of it, the imaging improves, the background cleans up and there is an addictive "calmness" to the sound. What people call "analogue" sounding.
There's two things I recommend you try once you get your Dave and funds allow :

A) Filter the power, it's true, Dave's PSU sucks. It's worse than TT2 most likely. Do you need to go out and buy an 8k power supply? Haven't tried it myself, but probably not.
I've started with an Isotek Sirius mains filter, moved up to an Isotek Aquarius, and the improvements with each were shocking. Tighter/deeper bass, better depth ,separation , more 3d sound, and that addictive calmness. Stock Dave is a fatiguing wall of sound in comparison. Adding the M-scaler fatigue is much greater, even on battery.
I'm so sold on clean power being the biggest factor for improvement out of everything I've tried, that i just placed an order on an Isotek Genesis One for Dave without being able to hear or return it. Unfortunately it's still not here yet so I can't comment on it.

B1) After A is sorted, noise entering from your source (streamer, pc) will be even more apparent. You have multiple solutions here, depending on if you want to keep M-scaler or not. If you do want it...Ferrite cables/Opto-DX/battery for the M-scaler are your best bet.
B2) Intona+SRC-DX+DC-block + any pc/streamer Chord USB input does suck. I feel like this chain is amazing value. HQP+SRC-DX beats M-scaler for a lot less money imo. And this isn't a savings thing, if the new M-scaler will be better I will gladly buy it. I use my PC for the above, but there is still noise, which is why i've plugged my 1000w PC into my power conditioner. This combo everything I've ever heard from the M-scaler (on battery for noise reduction).
The Intona USB isolator is pretty amazing as well. In combination with the Audiowise DC-Blocks (block direct currents as the name implies) it's actually pretty close to what the mains conditioner does. I'm currently in the process of A/B-ing this chain vs the conditioner to see if i can get rid of it and clear some space once the Genesis One arrives.

So long story short (ish), the only improvements (Not changes, plenty of snake oil that actually makes things worse) to Dave I could reliably A/B are the ones consistent with science, not audiophile marketing.
Reduce noise into Dave and you'll be rewarded. Whether you want to go the route above, or by buying Taiko, Grimm, or other solutions, it's up to you. Just know that there are massive improvements to be had quite easily. As bittersweet as that is for a device at Dave's price. Don't let those huge price tags put you off Dave.
Once an all in one comes along that beats the B2 chain, i'll gladly get rid of it all to reduce box count even further. I've found that the more active components you add (with their own PSU), the more noise you add. And measurements back this up.
Till then, for my headphone use, this is the best sound I've been able to get, but I'm confident the Genesis One will further improve things.

For your option A, regarding using power conditioning, do you find that plugging your amp direct into the wall yielded best results?

Do you fall in camp of plugging everything into the conditioner or only your digital components: streamer, dac, reclockers, etc.

 

[Triode User]

Grump, not my experience comparing my Dave with my Lampi Pacific, but you have to remember that with the Lampi, you’re introducing tubes into the mix, especially humongous direct heated triodes. Just trying out what might be the most massive triode tube I’ve ever tried, the KR T-100 (crazy pic attached). This monster is however a gentle giant: music simply oozes out of it in a very unforced way. You can tune the Lampi in ways you can’t tune the Dave. For example, with the KR 242 tube, the Pacific is a dynamic powerhouse that simply stomps all over the Dave in terms of sheer slam bang dynamics (stock Dave, I caution to add!). But you have the obvious drawbacks with tubes. Some NOS triode tubes are very pricey (e.g., a quartet of NOS Western Electric 300Bs made 70-80 years ago can cost as much as the Dave!). But there are very cheap 300Bs you can buy for $100 or so. The Lampi is massive, 10 times larger than the Dave. Costs twice as much. So, no, I’m not suggesting this is a simple trade off. But if you want to hear a distinctly superior sound in ways that I believe only tubes can deliver, there’s no beating the Lampi. But if you don‘t like tubes, I agree, the Dave is a wunderkind of a solid state DAC that should hold its own for years to come.

But I do like valves (tubes if you wish) hence ‘Triode User’ and my piccy and had them in my system for more than 35 years. So I am no stranger to valves in both the signal and power parts of the system. The longest serving were my power amps (Audio Innovations Second Audio 2A3 monos with external Border Patrol valve rectified power supplies) which saw service for 25 years and then after that came Border Patrol 300B and finally the best IMO which were Icon Audio push pull MB845M Mk2 monos. Pre amps were a mixture but mostly revolved around 12AU7 and 6SN7 valves. The latter being my favourite.

I really enjoyed all of them and the character of music which they produced. It was highly engaging.

And yet, gradually the Dave started a journey to wean me off all the valves in my system as I came to appreciate that with the right ss amplification one could have all the engagement and character that gave me delight but this time it came from the music rather than the colour added by the valves.

I admit that a large part of the delight has only been made available by upgrading the Dave with a Sean Jacobs power supply which has made the whole combination more musical but I am entirely happy that the music coming from my system is now much more enjoyable that at any point when I had valves.

Just as you have not heard an upgraded Dave, I have not heard a Lampi Pacific and so cannot make any comment as to how that might sound in comparison but in general terms I have no inclination to get back into the world of valves despite the many enjoyable years. Also, I am enjoying the sound of my system so much that I have very little inclination to go in search of alternatives (I do anticipate changing my Mscaler for the promised Choral range Scaler but that is the only change I have in mind). That is not to say I will not listen to a Lampi Pacific if I stumble across one, just that you might understand why I will not be on the phone to a dealer on Monday morning asking if I can borrow one.

 

[ObjectiveSubjectivist]

all the engagement and character that gave me delight but this time it came from the music rather than the colour added by the valves.

This.
Just I would change last valves with word gear/unit.
Engagement should be from music not particular unit. But in our world 99% of.the time that's not the case. People are chasing wrong rabbit.

 

[adrianm]

For your option A, regarding using power conditioning, do you find that plugging your amp direct into the wall yielded best results?

Do you fall in camp of plugging everything into the conditioner or only your digital components: streamer, dac, reclockers, etc.

When i did have the HPA4 here (for a demo) i plugged it into the high current sockets just to be sure. As it only draws 30w, I'm not sure a good power conditioner could limit a headphone amp. I've heard no differences between the normal and the high current plugs with Dave, besides the fact that it sounded a bit...dirtier and more grainy, closer to the wall power. With headphones, I wouldn't worry about that.
In theory, I would filter everything that has a non-galvanically isolated connection to analogue stages, as that's where the noise actually does the damage. I know some people disagree, but I see no reason why 100% digital components would benefit from noise reduction themselves if properly designed. Case in point : comparing my streamer to my PC via Optical into Dave/M-scaler, I can find no difference, though I did fool myself thinking there was one when I first got the streamer, before switching to SPDIF.
That said, I've just concluded a failed experiment (For B) where I tried to replace my Aquarius with the Intona Usb Isolator + SRC-DX + DC blocks, so clearly, I don't have it all figured out . The effects are cumulative, but, keeping the Aquarius in this chain still makes most of the difference. This is frustrating because I'm trying really hard to get rid of this huge box under my desk.