CHORD ELECTRONICS DAVE

[adrianm]

the Jitter ‘immunity’ is for all inputs. One would require inputting a source with an unreasonable amount of jitter to make a difference. As he’s said many times, optical is the gold standard with no concern for jitter.

Thanks, So why do people here feel the need to use optical reclockers ? Or hear differences between sources?

 

[ecwl]

Thanks, So why do people here feel the need to use optical reclockers ? Or hear differences between sources?

Specifically to Chord DACs or other DACs? This is my understanding based on what Rob Watts has said in the past.
For Chord DACs, an optical reclocker has the potential to reduce ground loop leakage current noise (which all DACs are susceptible to).
But for non-Chord DACs, they tend to be more sensitive to jitter because of their inherent DAC architecture. The Chord Pulse Array DAC design is significantly more immune to jitter (and has no noise floor modulation) because it is a constantly switching DAC usually with only at most one element switching and an additional two elements switching simultaneously to balance the change so there is minimal fluctuation in noise level generated by the flip-flops. This is not true with other DACs, e.g. DSD DACs would have switching occur at varying speeds depending on the musical materials; most DAC chip DACs or say dCS Ring DACs would use dynamic element matching with thermometer code but you can still sometimes have a few elements switching at the same time and other times, say 20-30 elements switching at the same time, leading to higher jitter sensitive and more noise floor modulation. Moreover, DAC chip DACs have substrate noise that is jitter sensitive and creates noise floor modulation. Obviously, R2R DACs would be switching to different voltage levels all the time, causing once again more jitter sensitivity and noise floor modulation. So for non-Chord DACs, optical reclockers could potentially reduce ground loop leakage current noise, and reduce the jitter those DACs receive, which would help the inherent flaws in their architecture.

 

[x RELIC x]

Thanks, So why do people here feel the need to use optical reclockers ? Or hear differences between sources?

I can’t speak as to why others feel the need to use reclockers, or what improvements they hear (or think they hear as jitter). I merely pointed out that the designer has measured no difference with obscene amounts of jitter due to his DAC architecture, and that it isn’t just related to USB compared to coaxial or optical. It should also be noted that unless a user is specifically measuring jitter between sources then they would have no idea if the differences they hear is from jitter or something else being introduced in to the signal path.

 

[adrianm]

Specifically to Chord DACs or other DACs? This is my understanding based on what Rob Watts has said in the past.
For Chord DACs, an optical reclocker has the potential to reduce ground loop leakage current noise (which all DACs are susceptible to).
But for non-Chord DACs, they tend to be more sensitive to jitter because of their inherent DAC architecture. The Chord Pulse Array DAC design is significantly more immune to jitter (and has no noise floor modulation) because it is a constantly switching DAC usually with only at most one element switching and an additional two elements switching simultaneously to balance the change so there is minimal fluctuation in noise level generated by the flip-flops. This is not true with other DACs, e.g. DSD DACs would have switching occur at varying speeds depending on the musical materials; most DAC chip DACs or say dCS Ring DACs would use dynamic element matching with thermometer code but you can still sometimes have a few elements switching at the same time and other times, say 20-30 elements switching at the same time, leading to higher jitter sensitive and more noise floor modulation. Moreover, DAC chip DACs have substrate noise that is jitter sensitive and creates noise floor modulation. Obviously, R2R DACs would be switching to different voltage levels all the time, causing once again more jitter sensitivity and noise floor modulation. So for non-Chord DACs, optical reclockers could potentially reduce ground loop leakage current noise, and reduce the jitter those DACs receive, which would help the inherent flaws in their architecture.

Thanks for the explanation

 

[adrianm]

I can’t speak as to why others feel the need to use reclockers, or what improvements they hear (or think they hear as jitter). I merely pointed out that the designer has measured no difference with obscene amounts of jitter due to his DAC architecture, and that it isn’t just related to USB compared to coaxial or optical. It should also be noted that unless a user is specifically measuring jitter between sources then they would have no idea if the differences they hear is from jitter or something else being introduced in to the signal path.

I see, i saw Rob specifically mention the Usb input on a number of ocasions and i thought it was related to the usb clock being synced to the dac clock. Which is one of the reasons why Usb might be preferable over optical i guess?
I'm just trying to get an understanding as to why people spend so much money on a ton of extra boxes for a dac that is this well designed. And trying to separate what might actually be worth doing.
For example in all the tests i've done (in the store) i've yet to hear a difference between sources using the same file and same settings. Even on a lesser dac, at home,between a power hungry gaming pc running tidal and a laptop running on battery power,both via usb. Yet people swear up and down streamers matter. More than injecting noise, or playback software differences, i find it hard to see why.

 

[Triode User]

I can’t speak as to why others feel the need to use reclockers, or what improvements they hear (or think they hear as jitter). I merely pointed out that the designer has measured no difference with obscene amounts of jitter due to his DAC architecture, and that it isn’t just related to USB compared to coaxial or optical. It should also be noted that unless a user is specifically measuring jitter between sources then they would have no idea if the differences they hear is from jitter or something else being introduced in to the signal path.

I am really not sure whether the reclocking function in the Innuos Phoenix 'reclocker' is the main event or whether some other aspect of what it does is the cause but all I can say is that the Phoenix made a clear and tangible improvement to sound quality when going to Dave or Mscaler by USB from my Innuos Zenith SE.

And no, it is not added noise artifacts that I am hearing when the Phoenix is added into the chain. I heared a smoother topo end and more detailed bottom end.

As it happens I did not buy the Phoenix but instead I had a big system shuffle and bought the Innuos Statement which already incorporates the Phoenix circuits and power supplies.

I see, i saw Rob specifically mention the Usb input on a number of ocasions and i thought it was related to the usb clock being synced to the dac clock. Which is one of the reasons why Usb might be preferable over optical i guess?
I'm just trying to get an understanding as to why people spend so much money on a ton of extra boxes for a dac that is this well designed. And trying to separate what might actually be worth doing.
For example in all the tests i've done (in the store) i've yet to hear a difference between sources using the same file and same settings. Even on a lesser dac, at home,between a power hungry gaming pc running tidal and a laptop running on battery power,both via usb. Yet people swear up and down streamers matter. More than injecting noise, or playback software differences, i find it hard to see why.

I became a convert to the quality of the source when I went to a Hi Fi show a couple of years ago and heard a demonstration by Innuos where they changed between their various servers into a Dave. Since then I have progressively climbed through the Innuos range in my own system.

 

[adrianm]

I am really not sure whether the reclocking function in the Innuos Phoenix 'reclocker' is the main event or whether some other aspect of what it does is the cause but all I can say is that the Phoenix made a clear and tangible improvement to sound quality when going to Dave or Mscaler by USB from my Innuos Zenith SE.

And no, it is not added noise artifacts that I am hearing when the Phoenix is added into the chain. I heared a smoother topo end and more detailed bottom end.

As it happens I did not buy the Phoenix but instead I had a big system shuffle and bought the Innuos Statement which already incorporates the Phoenix circuits and power supplies.



I became a convert to the quality of the source when I went to a Hi Fi show a couple of years ago and heard a demonstration by Innuos where they changed between their various servers into a Dave. Since then I have progressively climbed through the Innuos range in my own system.

For the love of god this hobby is taking up more time than my actual job. When do people have time to actually listen to music? I think all of this stuff is just extreme nitpicking, even if it does make a slight differences. Maybe my headphones (Z1R) aren't revealing enough, maybe there's a bigger difference on expensive speakers, but mostly i just want to get the Dave (maybe the M-scaler later if it makes that big of a difference) and be done with it.
Money considerations aside, I'd honestly much rather have a tidy desk instead of 10 different boxes with a ton of cables each, and for what? 10% improvement, if any?
At that point i see why the Bartok is appealing to so many people. At least it's a one box solution and it looks pretty.
I guess the biggest improvement would be M-scaler. Though some have said using an Aries G1 made more of a difference than it. To me using a dedicated streamer is just a solution looking for a problem, i'd much rather use my pc that i'm already using while listening to music than buy and use an ipad to switch tracks. The ease of using a mouse and keyboard outweighs the alleged sound quality gains for me,personally. * Millennials *
That might change if i actually do notice a difference between sources at some point. Would also be nice to have an actual scientific explanation for why they might matter.

 

[BPED]

Hello, I am looking for some advice to solve an issue that arose recently.
I use my M-Dave as DAC for my headphones set up (amp Riviera, via RCA cables) and as DAC and pre for my speakers set up (active ATC, via XLR).

Until recently I had no issues, just making sure that the speakers were powered off when I used the Riviera and viceversa.
Few days ago the ATC started distorting horribly and after some tests, also using another pre, I realized that it was due to the fact that the Riviera was also hooked via RCA (albeit turned off). Unplugging the RCA cables solved the issue for me. Curiously the contrary doesn't happen and I don't need to unplug the XLR cables when I use the Riviera.
How come that before I never experienced this? Any suggestion to avoid distortion without unplugging the Riviera each time? There must be a way because it worked smoothly for a while...
thanks for your ideas...

 

[iamoneagain]

For the love of god this hobby is taking up more time than my actual job. When do people have time to actually listen to music? I think all of this stuff is just extreme nitpicking, even if it does make a slight differences. Maybe my headphones (Z1R) aren't revealing enough, maybe there's a bigger difference on expensive speakers, but mostly i just want to get the Dave (maybe the M-scaler later if it makes that big of a difference) and be done with it.
Money considerations aside, I'd honestly much rather have a tidy desk instead of 10 different boxes with a ton of cables each, and for what? 10% improvement, if any?
At that point i see why the Bartok is appealing to so many people. At least it's a one box solution and it looks pretty.
I guess the biggest improvement would be M-scaler. Though some have said using an Aries G1 made more of a difference than it. To me using a dedicated streamer is just a solution looking for a problem, i'd much rather use my pc that i'm already using while listening to music than buy and use an ipad to switch tracks. The ease of using a mouse and keyboard outweighs the alleged sound quality gains for me,personally. * Millennials *
That might change if i actually do notice a difference between sources at some point. Would also be nice to have an actual scientific explanation for why they might matter.

As I mentioned the Dave sounds amazing stock but keep in mind that a lot of people that can afford the Dave, can also afford all these additional products. If you read all these posts you’ll start to believe never sounded good in its stock format.

I believe you have some people looking for the very best so will spend all kinds of money for the last 1%. You also get used to the sound no matter how good it is over time. So you also have people feeding upgradidas. If you already have an end game Dac, you need to look for other ways to improve your system.

I had my last headphone system for about 15 years but I decided to sell and start over. So I have a good baseline for how much improvement I hear every time I listen to the Dave. I did fall into the upgrade trap right away getting the mscaler, new headphone cable, Poweradd battery, and Blue Jean bnc cables. If I didn’t have the extra money at the time I would have stuck with all stock and still been happy. I would have then added the mscaler at a later point since I do think the improvement is worth it.

 

[adrianm]

As I mentioned the Dave sounds amazing stock but keep in mind that a lot of people that can afford the Dave, can also afford all these additional products. If you read all these posts you’ll start to believe never sounded good in its stock format.

I believe you have some people looking for the very best so will spend all kinds of money for the last 1%. You also get used to the sound no matter how good it is over time. So you also have people feeding upgradidas. If you already have an end game Dac, you need to look for other ways to improve your system.

I had my last headphone system for about 15 years but I decided to sell and start over. So I have a good baseline for how much improvement I hear every time I listen to the Dave. I did fall into the upgrade trap right away getting the mscaler, new headphone cable, Poweradd battery, and Blue Jean bnc cables. If I didn’t have the extra money at the time I would have stuck with all stock and still been happy. I would have then added the mscaler at a later point since I do think the improvement is worth it.

Honestly there are long periods of time when i don't even feel like listening to any music because i'm too busy or tired from work. Or prefer gaming instead. So i'm not looking for the last 1%. However i did get a silver cable with a 6.3 socket cuz hey, Dave needs one and do plan on adding the M-scaler and some decent bnc cables later, but not if the M-scaler introduces as many problems as people seem to claim. At that point adding streamers and fixing those problem would add up to a Bartok, which is less hassle. But we've had this chat before i guess, it's just people making mountains out of molehills that's putting me on edge .
Just trying to get a sense of what upgrades are the best bang for buck, set up the system, enjoy it and move on. For me, there are other hobbies to feed,limited time to enjoy them, and a fiancee that's losing her patience LOL.

 

[ecwl]

I see, i saw Rob specifically mention the Usb input on a number of ocasions and i thought it was related to the usb clock being synced to the dac clock. Which is one of the reasons why Usb might be preferable over optical i guess?
I'm just trying to get an understanding as to why people spend so much money on a ton of extra boxes for a dac that is this well designed. And trying to separate what might actually be worth doing.
For example in all the tests i've done (in the store) i've yet to hear a difference between sources using the same file and same settings. Even on a lesser dac, at home,between a power hungry gaming pc running tidal and a laptop running on battery power,both via usb. Yet people swear up and down streamers matter. More than injecting noise, or playback software differences, i find it hard to see why.

I think you have answered your own question actually.
If you’re running on battery on your laptop, as long as your laptop is not charging at the same time, there is no ground loop leakage current noise (because your laptop is not grounded). When people are swearing that their streamers matter, inevitably, their system is grounded, at their router, cable modem, streamer then via USB into their DACs. So that is multiple sources of ground loop leakage current noise. And this is assuming there is not even more ground loop leakage current noise later on downstream. I don’t like running my system off my laptop so I need to setup a system (with streamer) with optimal sound. When I used to bring my DAVE to local Head-Fi meets, I just connect my iPad and it sounds identical to what I get at home (after lots of effort). Keep in mind to when the sound changes with different products, different grounding and thus different types of ground loop leakage current noise, sometimes, it’s hard to tell which sounds better which is also why there is such intense discussion about which streamer pairs best with DAVE. My personal take is that if people are running streamers, before running out and buying an even more expensive one, they should consider grounding their router and cable modem first.

 

[Triode User]

Honestly there are long periods of time when i don't even feel like listening to any music because i'm too busy or tired from work. Or prefer gaming instead. So i'm not looking for the last 1%. However i did get a silver cable with a 6.3 socket cuz hey, Dave needs one and do plan on adding the M-scaler and some decent bnc cables later, but not if the M-scaler introduces as many problems as people seem to claim. At that point adding streamers and fixing those problem would add up to a Bartok, which is less hassle. But we've had this chat before i guess, it's just people making mountains out of molehills that's putting me on edge .
Just trying to get a sense of what upgrades are the best bang for buck, set up the system, enjoy it and move on. For me, there are other hobbies to feed,limited time to enjoy them, and a fiancee that's losing her patience LOL.

Don't be put off exploiting the best Chord sound. That other DAC manufacturer that you mention is maybe not a one box stop solution after all when you ask yourself if it might not sound better with one of those external clocks that they sell (and then get diverted with what sort of cable to use to connect the box to the clock).

 

[Malcyg]

For the love of god this hobby is taking up more time than my actual job. When do people have time to actually listen to music? I think all of this stuff is just extreme nitpicking,

Hmmm, is that everyone else’s fault do you think? I note that you have made more posts in the 10 weeks since you joined Headfi than I have made in nearly 3.5 years since I joined - maybe, perhaps, the problem lies there somewhere? Take a break from posting, relax and listen to some music.

 

[adrianm]

I think you have answered your own question actually.
If you’re running on battery on your laptop, as long as your laptop is not charging at the same time, there is no ground loop leakage current noise (because your laptop is not grounded). When people are swearing that their streamers matter, inevitably, their system is grounded, at their router, cable modem, streamer then via USB into their DACs. So that is multiple sources of ground loop leakage current noise. And this is assuming there is not even more ground loop leakage current noise later on downstream. I don’t like running my system off my laptop so I need to setup a system (with streamer) with optimal sound. When I used to bring my DAVE to local Head-Fi meets, I just connect my iPad and it sounds identical to what I get at home (after lots of effort). Keep in mind to when the sound changes with different products, different grounding and thus different types of ground loop leakage current noise, sometimes, it’s hard to tell which sounds better which is also why there is such intense discussion about which streamer pairs best with DAVE. My personal take is that if people are running streamers, before running out and buying an even more expensive one, they should consider grounding their router and cable modem first.

I actually meant that the laptop sounded identical to my desktop pc. Which is connected to an isotek sirius mains filter, but i assume it generates plenty of noise of its own..Though the Dac i was using to compare had a floating ground design ,not sure if that makes a difference.

 

[adrianm]

Hmmm, is that everyone else’s fault do you think? I note that you have made more posts in the 10 weeks since you joined Headfi than I have made in nearly 3.5 years since I joined - maybe, perhaps, the problem lies there somewhere? Take a break from posting, relax and listen to some music.

I can't , my Dave isn't here yet I'm not disputing that i'm "a bit" ocd, but i seem to be in the right place LOL.