CHORD ELECTRONICS DAVE
Aug 10, 2020 at 5:57 PM Post #15,121 of 25,833
So say it's the power that's causing the whole mess, a well designed laptop (mac) running on batteries should be just as good as a high end server. Do you find this to be the case?
I don’t have a Mac so I dunno. I have a very high end PC that I was using before, and upon comparison, the Innuos streamer sounded better. I also tried off my iPhone (I.e. battery) and the soundstage and separation of instruments was worse than the streamer
 
Aug 10, 2020 at 6:21 PM Post #15,122 of 25,833
If you’re at all curious, I always tell people to try the UpTone Audio ISO Regen with their LPS1.2 psu. It’s $695 and comes with a 30 day money back guarantee. I too was skeptical of reclockers, so I tried that out because if I didn’t like it, I could just return it, and it wasn’t too much money upfront (compared to other reclockers). I was very impressed with it.

https://uptoneaudio.com/products/iso-regen?variant=37469467788

Because the ISO Regen was such an improvement, I bought the Innuos Phoenix (which is even better)
I doubt the return policy applies in europe, i might give it a shot if it does, but how does the M-scaler and opto dx and etc factor into all of this? Doesn't it do the same thing?
 
Aug 10, 2020 at 7:16 PM Post #15,123 of 25,833
If you’re at all curious, I always tell people to try the UpTone Audio ISO Regen with their LPS1.2 psu. It’s $695 and comes with a 30 day money back guarantee. I too was skeptical of reclockers, so I tried that out because if I didn’t like it, I could just return it, and it wasn’t too much money upfront (compared to other reclockers). I was very impressed with it.

https://uptoneaudio.com/products/iso-regen?variant=37469467788

Because the ISO Regen was such an improvement, I bought the Innuos Phoenix (which is even better)
I recently bought the ultrarendu and have been very happy with the results with my dave
 
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Aug 10, 2020 at 10:28 PM Post #15,125 of 25,833
I have been doing both, i just came to different conclusions than you have. I'm asking because i'm still waiting to be proven wrong, or at least be pointed to some valid literature, but like the explanations in this hobby, they seem to be missing.Or hard to find. It's always people shouting "You can't tell me what i'm hearing".Measurements also seem to contradict a lot these opinions, but somehow they're only good for creating the gadgets, after that they're irrelevant.
If your doctor said tomorrow " This Covid vaccine looks good to me, i gave it to a guy yesterday and he's fine.His vitals aren't that good? They're just measurements". Would you take it? Or the guys reading your tire pressure?

I believe you have been doing your own testing and listening. I'm sure there is real experience behind your comments, but there is a lot of different types of gear out there at varying levels of quality. We need to draw conclusions slowly or we will be in error.

I'm not sure who is saying, "You can't tell me what I'm hearing," measurements are "irrelevant." For my part, I've championed the need for measurements in many posts, as they are–absolutely–essential. At the same time every respected builder will tell you that listening is exactly as indispensable. There are things that affect SQ that they implement, but have yet to find the proper measurement to explain. Doctors will be the first to tell you that there are treatments that work which they regularly prescribe, but they don't understand the biomechanics of their efficacy–yet. The picture is complex. Measurements help us "see" what we are hearing, and listening let's us hear what we are seeing. I wouldn't want to work blind or deaf. One informs the other.

So say it's the power that's causing the whole mess, a well designed laptop (mac) running on batteries should be just as good as a high end server. Do you find this to be the case?

Again, it's more complicated than just power, but even the issue of power is multifarious in and of itself. Just because you are running off of batteries, clear of the grid, doesn't mean you have good power. Noise is only one issue that affects power. The cheap power supply in a laptop doesn't have the kind of precise regulation and quality of power delivery as a high end server. Power delivery affects everything from dynamic swing, transient response, PRAT, etc. There is a reason why the power supply in this server is built in this painstaking way rather than with a bank of lithium ion batteries. We should be open to the thought that it might sound a littler better.

I have the newest MacBook Pro running Audirvana. I love the Mac–to pieces. It's not something that can compete with a purpose built audio device is all.

You seem to be under the impression that there is a lot of subjectivity without careful thinking through the objective technicalities. The literature is not "missing." If you want to go on a deep dive, check out this thread on Audiophile Style: https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/...f-computer-audio-streaming/page/692/#comments You may already be aware of it, but it is 692 pages, 17,281 posts of collective listening, interpreting, and reasoning through the technicalities of building a system around a DAC. Many of the contributors own Daves and consider it the finest DAC in the world. Still, this hasn't stopped them from spending many, many multiples of its retail price on trying to eke out 1 more percent from it (grin).

206450490_TaikoAudioSGMExtremeEntireInside.jpg.041eb2428e76c5672cc3a328487644b0.jpg
 
Aug 11, 2020 at 4:58 AM Post #15,126 of 25,833
Thanks but that didn’t work unfortunately.. the ATC still sound distorted unless I unplugged the RCA out from the Dave.

@Rob Watts , I am using Dave as pre for active ATC (via (XLR) and as DAC for a headphones amp (via RCA). Even if I keep the headphones amp off, the speakers sound distorted. The only solution is to unplug the RCA cable. Is this normal for the Dave? Or should it work normally when connected to different amps (to be used one at the time)? Thanks for clarifying

Is the amp shorting unused inputs or inputs when powered down? I know some amps that do this which is reckless and irresponsible to short active electronics.
With Dave driving a short it will get distorted.

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Shhhh....stop making sense. "But, but, but Rob said this, the measurements say that." All the while, they have never tried dedicated servers or reclockers themselves

But I have. My MSI laptop beat it easily - the server sounding bright and with false transparency. The MSI was much warmer, with softer, fuller bass, better timbre variation, deeper soundstage, and more focussed instrument separation. The server sounded superficially more impressive - but it was exactly the type of sound you get from added RF noise causing more noise floor modulation.

Adding more active electronics to process bit perfect data will always add extra RF noise and this will con you into thinking it sounds better.

If I thought servers were the way forward I would design them rather than spending all my time on DAC amps and ADCs.
 
Aug 11, 2020 at 5:10 AM Post #15,127 of 25,833
But I have. My MSI laptop beat it easily - the server sounding bright and with false transparency. The MSI was much warmer, with softer, fuller bass, better timbre variation, deeper soundstage, and more focussed instrument separation. The server sounded superficially more impressive - but it was exactly the type of sound you get from added RF noise causing more noise floor modulation.

Adding more active electronics to process bit perfect data will always add extra RF noise and this will con you into thinking it sounds better.

If I thought servers were the way forward I would design them rather than spending all my time on DAC amps and ADCs.
Any tips for a non-believer who wants to keep using his gaming desktop pc with the Dave and later M-scaler? Jitterbug usb and call it a day? or do you recommend any other improvements? My Dave's not here yet, but with my old dac (Sony Ta-zh1es) i didn't really notice a difference between the desktop and a laptop running on battery. Not revealing enough? Definitely a lot worse designed though as a mains filter improved it drastically.
 
Aug 11, 2020 at 5:56 AM Post #15,129 of 25,833
Wait till your Dave arrives. If desktop PC sounds the same as a lap-top on batteries (with the lap-top not connected to ground at all) you are good to go and no need to worry about the source.
Will do, Should i keep using the Isotek Sirius mains filter with it (Mostly for surge protection as i have bad power,but any further benefits are welcome) or does it "bucher dynamics" as some people claim? (It's not a high powered amp so i fail to see why that would be the case) Or any other detriments?
 
Aug 11, 2020 at 6:05 AM Post #15,130 of 25,833
But I have. My MSI laptop beat it easily - the server sounding bright and with false transparency. The MSI was much warmer, with softer, fuller bass, better timbre variation, deeper soundstage, and more focussed instrument separation. The server sounded superficially more impressive - but it was exactly the type of sound you get from added RF noise causing more noise floor modulation.

Adding more active electronics to process bit perfect data will always add extra RF noise and this will con you into thinking it sounds better.

If I thought servers were the way forward I would design them rather than spending all my time on DAC amps and ADCs.

Along with many others, this will remain an endless source of mystery to me. I know that you have conducted these experiments on your own and with Romaz at his home (Roy being the originator of that Audiophile Style thread).

Whose ears should we trust more than Rob Watts! I mean this with utmost sincerity.

And yet... here we are. The sound with my system (server, reclocker, isolator, power supplies, cabling, etc.) is not a brighter sound than the Dave alone. I don't have a Windows laptop of any brand. However, the Dave clearly sounds brighter when I go straight from my MacBook Pro (plugged in or not). Adding the system, the sound is warmer, fuller, suppler, and more dynamic, with increased timbral delicacy and definition.

The background is more black which I can only attribute to a lower noise floor. There is nothing less than a dramatic increase in soundstage dimension and separation of sonic components in the image. I can hear detail which I simply cannot with the Dave alone, which is again, a phenomenon I cannot understand if more RF noise is being injected into the signal. The sound from the system does not have the telltale excitation "spice" of increased noise pollution, but bears all the increased nuance and resolution of decreased noise.

I don't consider any of this a way to better Dave, but providing Dave with the signal to take better advantage of what it offers.

In all my attempts to interpret and understand the technicalities of what I am hearing, the fact that my conclusions are so at odds with Rob Watt's, is utterly confounding. The mammoth levels of effort and obscene amount of finances expended by so many are driven by the revelation that came with hearing Dave. That what we are hearing with our additional systems is at such variance with the very designer of the Dave is deflating. And yet, with–all due deference and enormous respect–we go on.
 
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Aug 11, 2020 at 6:39 AM Post #15,131 of 25,833
Along with many others, this will remain an endless source of mystery to me. I know that you have conducted these experiments on your own and with Romaz at his home (Roy being the originator of that Audiophile Style thread).

Whose ears should we trust more than Rob Watts! I mean this with utmost sincerity.

And yet... here we are. The sound with my system (server, reclocker, isolator, power supplies, cabling, etc.) is not a brighter sound than the Dave alone. I don't have a Windows laptop of any brand. However, the Dave clearly sounds brighter when I go straight from my MacBook Pro (plugged in or not). Adding the system, the sound is warmer, fuller, suppler, and more dynamic, with increased timbral delicacy and definition.

The background is more black which I can only attribute to a lower noise floor. There is nothing less than a dramatic increase in soundstage dimension and separation of sonic components in the image. I can hear detail which I simply cannot with the Dave alone, which is again, a phenomenon I cannot understand if more RF noise is being injected into the signal. The sound from the system does not have the telltale excitation "spice" of increased noise pollution, but bears all the increased nuance and resolution of decreased noise.

I don't consider any of this a way to better Dave, but providing Dave with the signal to take better advantage of what it offers.

In all my attempts to interpret and understand the technicalities of what I am hearing, the fact that my conclusions are so at odds with Rob Watt's, is utterly confounding. The mammoth levels of effort and obscene amount of finances expended by so many are driven by the revelation that came with hearing Dave. That what we are hearing with our additional systems is at such variance with the very designer of the Dave is deflating. And yet, with–all due deference and enormous respect–we go on.

If you like it, it is good. It is your ears and your ears only that count in terms of enjoying your music.

My own findings are very similar to yours. Each step has been a move away from that brightly etched and fatiguing digital detail to a darker, warmer, smoother more analogue sound. The opposite in fact of what Rob is suggesting. Anyway, I like it very much and I don’t much care what anyone else has to say about it. People worry too much about what others say sometimes I think.
 
Aug 11, 2020 at 6:45 AM Post #15,132 of 25,833
Along with many others, this will remain an endless source of mystery to me. I know that you have conducted these experiments on your own and with Romaz at his home (Roy being the originator of that Audiophile Style thread).

Whose ears should we trust more than Rob Watts! I mean this with utmost sincerity.

And yet... here we are. The sound with my system (server, reclocker, isolator, power supplies, cabling, etc.) is not a brighter sound than the Dave alone. I don't have a Windows laptop of any brand. However, the Dave clearly sounds brighter when I go straight from my MacBook Pro. Adding the system, the sound is warmer, fuller, suppler, and more dynamic, with increased timbral delicacy and definition.

The background is more black which I can only attribute to a lower noise floor. There is nothing less than a dramatic increase in soundstage dimension and separation of sonic components in the image. I can hear detail which I simply cannot with the Dave alone, which is again, a phenomenon I cannot understand if more RF noise is being injected into the signal. The sound from the system does not have the telltale excitation "spice" of increased noise pollution but bears all the increased nuance and resolution of decreased noise. I don't consider any of this a way to better Dave, but providing Dave with the signal to take better advantage of what it offers.

In all my attempts to interpret and understand the technicalities of what I am hearing, the fact that my conclusions are so at odds with Rob Watt's, is utterly confounding. The mammoth levels of effort and obscene amount of finances expended by so many are driven by the revelation that came with hearing Dave. That what we are hearing with our additional systems is at such variance with the very designer of the Dave is deflating. And yet, with–all due deference and enormous respect–we go on.
The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
After all the hype and discussions here whether "to laptop or not to laptop?" "Or maybe whether to mac or to windows?" I'm going to listen to the often lauded Innuos server solution soon.
But I already know that maybe the one deciding limiting factor for me is Qutest.
Dave/Mscaler via my mbp USB is about as good as I've heard digital sound so far.
But that there can be audible differences between sources/cd players even with rbcd and optical out, oh yes indeed!
I have no doubts whatsoever as far as that is concerned.
My preferred cd player stopped working last week and just for fun while shopping for second hand cds at a local thrift shop I also bought an upmarket VERY expensive dvd/cd player that day.
A real "High End" brand NAD and I paid 10 € for it including a huge remote.
They also had two "new" pianos for sale that also sounded different from each other. One for 100€ and another for 250€.
Mozart sounded nicer on the cheaper one and Beethoven better on the more expensive one.
To my surprise the "HIGH END" 10€ NAD dvd /cd player sounds quite nice and with some cds better, but again audibly different from my other still working cd player via optical out into Mscaler, just as my now dead cd player sounded different from the other.
Neither of the three as good as cd s via Blu2/DAVE though,going by memory, which remains the best I've ever heard cd discs sound.
But since I still clearly hear that the hi res 24/96 master files from some of the same recordings still sound notably better and more realistic via my mbp/Qutest/Mscaler than via even Blu2/DAVE.
Yes a laptop!

Hence 25 k for cd player combo like Blu2 was NEVER on my horizon.

Proof of the pudding so far, cd can sound better than I ever thought it would or could. But hi res rules.
To "server or not to server?" now that remains to be decided after proper auditions with my reference material.
Cheers CC
 
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Aug 11, 2020 at 6:55 AM Post #15,133 of 25,833
Years back, in the 80’s, I stopped really listening to music for quite a long while because it always made me feel quite fatigued, gave me a headache and hurt my ears. This was when I switched from those irritating black vinyl things to the shiny, new silver CD’s that delivered ‘perfect sound‘. It is only in recent years that I have completely rediscovered my youthful appetite for music. I am enjoying the best sound I have ever heard which I can play as loud as I like and listen to for as long as I like - all day sometimes - free from any pain and fatigue. My BluDave is a big part of that but there are multiple other components involved as well. It is all about getting a well balanced system, and that has never changed.
 
Aug 11, 2020 at 7:00 AM Post #15,134 of 25,833
Is the amp shorting unused inputs or inputs when powered down? I know some amps that do this which is reckless and irresponsible to short active electronics.
With Dave driving a short it will get distorted.



But I have. My MSI laptop beat it easily - the server sounding bright and with false transparency. The MSI was much warmer, with softer, fuller bass, better timbre variation, deeper soundstage, and more focussed instrument separation. The server sounded superficially more impressive - but it was exactly the type of sound you get from added RF noise causing more noise floor modulation.

Adding more active electronics to process bit perfect data will always add extra RF noise and this will con you into thinking it sounds better.

If I thought servers were the way forward I would design them rather than spending all my time on DAC amps and ADCs.

Thank you Rob, I am checking with RivieraLabs and will report back.
 
Aug 11, 2020 at 7:04 AM Post #15,135 of 25,833
The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
After all the hype and discussions here whether "to laptop or not to laptop?" "Or maybe whether to mac or to windows?" I'm going to listen to the often lauded Innuos server solution soon.
But I already know that maybe the one deciding limiting factor for me is Qutest.
Dave/Mscaler via my mbp USB is about as good as I've heard digital sound so far.
But that there can audible be differences between sources/cd players even with rbcd and optical out, oh yes indeed!
I have no doubts whatsoever as far as that is concerned.
My preferred cd player stopped working last week and just for fun while shopping for second hand cds at a local thrift shop I also bought an upmarket VERY expensive dvd/cd player that day.
A real "High End" brand NAD and I paid 10 € for it including a huge remote.
They also had two "new" pianos for sale that also sounded different from each other. One for 100€ and another for 250€.
Mozart sounded nicer on the cheaper one and Beethoven better on the more expensive one.
To my surprise the "HIGH END" 10€ NAD dvd /cd player sounds quite nice and with some cds better, but again audibly different from my other still working cd player via optical out into Mscaler, just as my now dead cd player sounded different from the other.
Neither of the three as good as cd s via Blu2/DAVE though,going by memory, which remains the best I've ever heard cd discs sound.
But since I still clearly hear that the hi res 24/96 master files from some of the same recordings still sound notably better and more realistic via my mbp/Qutest/Mscaler than via even Blu2/DAVE.
Yes a laptop!

Hence 25 k for cd player combo like Blu2 was NEVER on my horizon.

Proof of the pudding so far, cd can sound better than I ever thought it would or could. But hi res rules.
To "server or not to server?" now that remains to be decided after proper auditions with my reference material.
Cheers CC
I never stopped listening, I stuck with my Linn LP 12 that I bought in the mid 70s until SACD, and now mainly play hi res or cds via Mscaler.
But my LP12 still sees some use.
It still beats non mscaled cd in vital respects imho.
Cheers CC
 
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