Staxton
100+ Head-Fier
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2014
- Posts
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- 153
I'm the guy who slapped together a Raspberry Pi with a battery, some SD cards, and a touchscreen with a Mojo in a 3D Printed case. (http://www.head-fi.org/t/810520/portable-all-in-one-dap-with-chord-mojo)
As I have said before, from the moment I saw and heard the Mojo, I believed that it would be possible to (and I truly hoped that Chord itself would) create a truly revolutionary digital audio player for a reasonable price based on the Mojo. While I was waiting, I spent a lot of time using off-the-shelf components to make a rough version of such a DAP--sort of my own version of creating the first mnemonic circuit using stone knives and bearskins, to more or less quote Mr. Spock.
I personally was disappointed that Chord opted to make an add-on that only provided for a single micro-SD card storage and did not have an integrated touch screen. In my wildest imagination, I hoped, although I did not expect, that Chord would design a DAP that basically took the guts of something like the Poly, combined them with the guts of the Mojo, and put them in a single box with a touchscreen and powered by a single battery. I say I didn't expect that because Chord has always said they were developing an addon for the Mojo, and the unit I just described would have meant that current Mojo owners would have had to either disassemble their Mojos to install its board in the new DAP, or buy the equivalent of a new Mojo with the added features. Since my wildest hopes were pretty much out of the question, for this go-round at least, my next wish was a unit that could attach to the Mojo like the Poly, but which included a screen and significant storage.
As I say, I was disappointed that Chord didn't do that either. But, we don't always get what we want, back to the drawing board. I really didn't want to get involved in this fray because I am one of those who greatly admire what Chord has done with the Mojo--they basically put a first-class DAC out for what passes in the bizarro audiophile world as peanuts (I must stress--only by comparison to other DAC prices--$500 is still $500.) And I also recognize that while the Poly may not be what I was looking for, it might be a better fit for others, so who am I to complain.
And that would have been the end of it for me but for two things: the price, and more to the point, the hostile reaction by John Franks to what I thought have been generally well-reasoned, intelligent, and polite questions and comments to questions about the price, especially as that price related to the costs of design, parts, and functionality.
Now, I have absolutely no experience professionally in any of the areas of expertise that go into making a product like this--so Mr. Franks can, if he chooses, dismiss this post as he has with many others by saying I don't understand or know what actually went into making the Poly. (As I side note, I refer to Mr. Franks personally, rather than Chord, because all the comments to date about the Poly have been by Mr. Franks, and, to my knowledge, Rob Watts did not have anything to do with the Poly. That being the case, I don't want anything I say here to be construed as being directed to Rob personally.) However, beyond my general beliefs that what the customer thinks about the design or functionality of a product is relevant to a discussion of that product, and that the burden of explaining why a product was made the way it was and is offered for the price asked lies with the manufacturer, not the consumer, I do have some slight first-hand experience with actually putting together the very thing the Poly is supposed to be, which might make any thoughts I have on the subject of interest to some here.
Several months ago, I put together the following to make what turned out to be my version of a Poly:
Raspberry Pi 3 Mainboard stripped of all ports
Adafruit 2500 mAh battery
Adafruit Powerboost 1000c
3 Kingston G2 USB 2.0 microSDHC Readers
3 SD to Micro SD FPC Extenders
200GB Sandisk MicroSD card (OS + Music)
Adafruit Switch
Chord Mojo
3D printed plastic enclosure
The total size was 125 x 98.2 x 26 mm and it weighed 318 grams. I could interface with the unit via WiFi with a phone, iPad, or PC; I could play music from up to 3 full-size SD cards and/or a micro-SD card, or stream music wirelessly from a NAS or Spotify.
I later made a stand-alone DAP--I added an Adafruit 2.8" Capacitive Screen 2423 and a 5300 mAh battery, which resulted in a unit 125 x 98.2 x 34 mm and weighing 410g.
Now I am not saying that either of these is superior to the Poly--far, far from it. But, at the time I made them, I thought that it demonstrated, at least to my limited understanding, that if a crude and hardly up to audiophile standards device could be put together with cheap parts, then what would Chord be able to do?
And Chord did indeed address several of the weaknesses of my devices. First and foremost, the well-designed, sturdy aluminum case. Second, instead of using an off-the-shelf PCB like the Raspberry Pi, they developed one with just the functionality they thought was necessary, leaving out all the things that the Raspberry Pi included that wasn't necessary for what Chord had in mind--i.e., the extra USB ports, an HDMI port; screen interfaces, etc. I am also sure that the battery Chord uses is far superior to my batteries and will have far more longevity. Further, I wasn't interested in Tidal, so my unit can't stream it directly. However, while I may be wrong, getting Tidal to work is more a matter of working out an arrangement with Tidal to get their application or whatever they need to access their service included in the software functionality of the unit. I don't have access to that functionality, but I assume that from a technical point of view, adding that functionality doesn't require much work--certainly no extra hardware is involved. Finally, the connection between the Poly and the Chord is probably better than mine, although I have seen a similar3D printed design made by another amateur; frankly, I am a bit concerned that the connection between the Poly and the Mojo might be susceptible to stress.
Now these are worthy improvements, but does the aluminum case, a good LiPo battery, and Tidal support alone account for the vast discrepancy between the cost of the parts I used and the price of the Poly?
We have been told that the Poly is "more than a Raspberry Pi". But I must ask, just exactly what does it do that a Raspberry Pi can't do. A Raspberry Pi 3 has WiFi; can be connected to the Mojo via USB; with free software, can handle a music collection either on board or via streaming and is compatible with DLNA; and can be controlled via a phone, iPad or PC. In addition, it has a LAN socket, so that to the extent that the Poly is meant to act as a general all-purpose streaming device in place of a PC or Mac, the Pi can have leg up on the Poly (I actually cut out the LAN port because I didn't plan to use my unit as a desktop device). Also, it has 3 USB ports, in addition to the USB port used to connect the Mojo. With appropriate adapters and wiring, these ports can be used for full-size SD cards, meaning that it can handle up to 1.5 TB of storage, in addition to the micro-SD card slot already on the Pi.
Mr. Franks has attempted, in part, to justify the cost of the Poly by saying essentially that it exceeds anything else out there and it is a bargain at its price. My reaction to that is, from my own experience, I don't see anything in the Poly that couldn't be put together relatively inexpensively using common parts. Every device has 2.4 ghz WiFi; Bluetooth is also ubiquitous, and the one thing the Poly might have been able to do that I can't do with a Raspberry Pi is wirelessly connect to headphones; DLNA support is widespread, if not widely used or understood; there is nothing unique about micro-USB storage; and using MPD (a protocol that has been used for years; indeed, the software I used was also based on MPD) as the basis for the storage software indicates quite plainly that Chord has not developed any new applications or software in connection with the Poly. In fact, the Poly lacks a number of things that are almost equally commonplace, albeit at an increased cost: for example, dual band 2.4/5 ghz WiFi or new flash storage-types. Yes it is Roon ready and can stream Tidal, but as I've said before, that is more of a software licensing thing than a design issue.
There are also some things about the Poly that raise other questions that I don't think have been adequately addressed. For example, Chord says that the Poly has room for a micro-SD card, providing "Unlimited maximum capacity". Nowhere have I heard that micro-SD cards have an unlimited maximum capacity. I have heard that they have a theoretical 2TB maximum capacity, but the largest one available today is 256 GB.
Except for the on board micro-SD storage, all other music played by the Poly/Mojo combo must be sent wirelessly from the source. I personally have found that wireless streaming can be problematic--it can drop out, even with the best systems, if you move to some locations. Further, some might argue that wireless streaming may degrade the sound quality of the music when compared to either a wired LAN connection or onboard storage. I hope Chord will address these issues directly.
Finally, I hope that Chord will explain what exactly it believes there is about the Poly, be it components, design, software, functionality, whatever, that is truly new and justifies what I believe to be an excessive price. With all due respect to Jude, I really want to know what Chord has to say on these issues. Frankly, and this is my opinion based on what I know about computer components and the like, all Audio brand-made computer streaming solutions are way overpriced in comparison to simple PC or Android interfaces that can be purchased for significantly less. Again, it is my opinion that many audio component manufacturers take advantage of some audio consumers, who either lack knowledge or don't have the inclination to deal with computer and software-related issues, to sell them what are in fact relatively inexpensive components with less than stellar specs in a fancy case for a highly inflated price. Yes, in comparison to these devices, the Poly is a bargain. But in my opinion, those streamers and all-in-ones with hefty price tags are way over priced, and I guess I hoped that Chord would not play that game.
In any event, I personally would pay quite a bit for a full fledged, single unit Mojo-DAP with all the capabilities of the Poly, but also with significant on board storage and a touchscreen interface.
As I have said before, from the moment I saw and heard the Mojo, I believed that it would be possible to (and I truly hoped that Chord itself would) create a truly revolutionary digital audio player for a reasonable price based on the Mojo. While I was waiting, I spent a lot of time using off-the-shelf components to make a rough version of such a DAP--sort of my own version of creating the first mnemonic circuit using stone knives and bearskins, to more or less quote Mr. Spock.
I personally was disappointed that Chord opted to make an add-on that only provided for a single micro-SD card storage and did not have an integrated touch screen. In my wildest imagination, I hoped, although I did not expect, that Chord would design a DAP that basically took the guts of something like the Poly, combined them with the guts of the Mojo, and put them in a single box with a touchscreen and powered by a single battery. I say I didn't expect that because Chord has always said they were developing an addon for the Mojo, and the unit I just described would have meant that current Mojo owners would have had to either disassemble their Mojos to install its board in the new DAP, or buy the equivalent of a new Mojo with the added features. Since my wildest hopes were pretty much out of the question, for this go-round at least, my next wish was a unit that could attach to the Mojo like the Poly, but which included a screen and significant storage.
As I say, I was disappointed that Chord didn't do that either. But, we don't always get what we want, back to the drawing board. I really didn't want to get involved in this fray because I am one of those who greatly admire what Chord has done with the Mojo--they basically put a first-class DAC out for what passes in the bizarro audiophile world as peanuts (I must stress--only by comparison to other DAC prices--$500 is still $500.) And I also recognize that while the Poly may not be what I was looking for, it might be a better fit for others, so who am I to complain.
And that would have been the end of it for me but for two things: the price, and more to the point, the hostile reaction by John Franks to what I thought have been generally well-reasoned, intelligent, and polite questions and comments to questions about the price, especially as that price related to the costs of design, parts, and functionality.
Now, I have absolutely no experience professionally in any of the areas of expertise that go into making a product like this--so Mr. Franks can, if he chooses, dismiss this post as he has with many others by saying I don't understand or know what actually went into making the Poly. (As I side note, I refer to Mr. Franks personally, rather than Chord, because all the comments to date about the Poly have been by Mr. Franks, and, to my knowledge, Rob Watts did not have anything to do with the Poly. That being the case, I don't want anything I say here to be construed as being directed to Rob personally.) However, beyond my general beliefs that what the customer thinks about the design or functionality of a product is relevant to a discussion of that product, and that the burden of explaining why a product was made the way it was and is offered for the price asked lies with the manufacturer, not the consumer, I do have some slight first-hand experience with actually putting together the very thing the Poly is supposed to be, which might make any thoughts I have on the subject of interest to some here.
Several months ago, I put together the following to make what turned out to be my version of a Poly:
Raspberry Pi 3 Mainboard stripped of all ports
Adafruit 2500 mAh battery
Adafruit Powerboost 1000c
3 Kingston G2 USB 2.0 microSDHC Readers
3 SD to Micro SD FPC Extenders
200GB Sandisk MicroSD card (OS + Music)
Adafruit Switch
Chord Mojo
3D printed plastic enclosure
The total size was 125 x 98.2 x 26 mm and it weighed 318 grams. I could interface with the unit via WiFi with a phone, iPad, or PC; I could play music from up to 3 full-size SD cards and/or a micro-SD card, or stream music wirelessly from a NAS or Spotify.
I later made a stand-alone DAP--I added an Adafruit 2.8" Capacitive Screen 2423 and a 5300 mAh battery, which resulted in a unit 125 x 98.2 x 34 mm and weighing 410g.
Now I am not saying that either of these is superior to the Poly--far, far from it. But, at the time I made them, I thought that it demonstrated, at least to my limited understanding, that if a crude and hardly up to audiophile standards device could be put together with cheap parts, then what would Chord be able to do?
And Chord did indeed address several of the weaknesses of my devices. First and foremost, the well-designed, sturdy aluminum case. Second, instead of using an off-the-shelf PCB like the Raspberry Pi, they developed one with just the functionality they thought was necessary, leaving out all the things that the Raspberry Pi included that wasn't necessary for what Chord had in mind--i.e., the extra USB ports, an HDMI port; screen interfaces, etc. I am also sure that the battery Chord uses is far superior to my batteries and will have far more longevity. Further, I wasn't interested in Tidal, so my unit can't stream it directly. However, while I may be wrong, getting Tidal to work is more a matter of working out an arrangement with Tidal to get their application or whatever they need to access their service included in the software functionality of the unit. I don't have access to that functionality, but I assume that from a technical point of view, adding that functionality doesn't require much work--certainly no extra hardware is involved. Finally, the connection between the Poly and the Chord is probably better than mine, although I have seen a similar3D printed design made by another amateur; frankly, I am a bit concerned that the connection between the Poly and the Mojo might be susceptible to stress.
Now these are worthy improvements, but does the aluminum case, a good LiPo battery, and Tidal support alone account for the vast discrepancy between the cost of the parts I used and the price of the Poly?
We have been told that the Poly is "more than a Raspberry Pi". But I must ask, just exactly what does it do that a Raspberry Pi can't do. A Raspberry Pi 3 has WiFi; can be connected to the Mojo via USB; with free software, can handle a music collection either on board or via streaming and is compatible with DLNA; and can be controlled via a phone, iPad or PC. In addition, it has a LAN socket, so that to the extent that the Poly is meant to act as a general all-purpose streaming device in place of a PC or Mac, the Pi can have leg up on the Poly (I actually cut out the LAN port because I didn't plan to use my unit as a desktop device). Also, it has 3 USB ports, in addition to the USB port used to connect the Mojo. With appropriate adapters and wiring, these ports can be used for full-size SD cards, meaning that it can handle up to 1.5 TB of storage, in addition to the micro-SD card slot already on the Pi.
Mr. Franks has attempted, in part, to justify the cost of the Poly by saying essentially that it exceeds anything else out there and it is a bargain at its price. My reaction to that is, from my own experience, I don't see anything in the Poly that couldn't be put together relatively inexpensively using common parts. Every device has 2.4 ghz WiFi; Bluetooth is also ubiquitous, and the one thing the Poly might have been able to do that I can't do with a Raspberry Pi is wirelessly connect to headphones; DLNA support is widespread, if not widely used or understood; there is nothing unique about micro-USB storage; and using MPD (a protocol that has been used for years; indeed, the software I used was also based on MPD) as the basis for the storage software indicates quite plainly that Chord has not developed any new applications or software in connection with the Poly. In fact, the Poly lacks a number of things that are almost equally commonplace, albeit at an increased cost: for example, dual band 2.4/5 ghz WiFi or new flash storage-types. Yes it is Roon ready and can stream Tidal, but as I've said before, that is more of a software licensing thing than a design issue.
There are also some things about the Poly that raise other questions that I don't think have been adequately addressed. For example, Chord says that the Poly has room for a micro-SD card, providing "Unlimited maximum capacity". Nowhere have I heard that micro-SD cards have an unlimited maximum capacity. I have heard that they have a theoretical 2TB maximum capacity, but the largest one available today is 256 GB.
Except for the on board micro-SD storage, all other music played by the Poly/Mojo combo must be sent wirelessly from the source. I personally have found that wireless streaming can be problematic--it can drop out, even with the best systems, if you move to some locations. Further, some might argue that wireless streaming may degrade the sound quality of the music when compared to either a wired LAN connection or onboard storage. I hope Chord will address these issues directly.
Finally, I hope that Chord will explain what exactly it believes there is about the Poly, be it components, design, software, functionality, whatever, that is truly new and justifies what I believe to be an excessive price. With all due respect to Jude, I really want to know what Chord has to say on these issues. Frankly, and this is my opinion based on what I know about computer components and the like, all Audio brand-made computer streaming solutions are way overpriced in comparison to simple PC or Android interfaces that can be purchased for significantly less. Again, it is my opinion that many audio component manufacturers take advantage of some audio consumers, who either lack knowledge or don't have the inclination to deal with computer and software-related issues, to sell them what are in fact relatively inexpensive components with less than stellar specs in a fancy case for a highly inflated price. Yes, in comparison to these devices, the Poly is a bargain. But in my opinion, those streamers and all-in-ones with hefty price tags are way over priced, and I guess I hoped that Chord would not play that game.
In any event, I personally would pay quite a bit for a full fledged, single unit Mojo-DAP with all the capabilities of the Poly, but also with significant on board storage and a touchscreen interface.
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