[radnor]

PORTABLE MSCALER: I have been having a discussion with the creator of HQ PLAYER on the ROON forum. Looks like entirely possible BUT also looks like CHORD has crippled the 2GO... read on:

Jussi (HQ Player): "Yes, the MScaler type functionality is in HQPlayer. And NAA endpoint functionality is very light weight and can run on small devices, could probably run on 2Go as well."

Sounds good right??? Unfortunately no... and this would explain all the streaming issues we have... Do not expect to see a fix coming from CHORD... EVER: " However Realistically, only if you use the 2Go via Ethernet. The Wi-Fi chipset in the 2Go is garbage. It is 2.4GHz only and only advertises a single 65Mb/s stream, making it an old/crappy chip even by 802.11n standards. Keep in mind, that 65Mb/s is theoretical max, and real world will be closer to half /two-thirds that. 768k PCM is ~50Mb/s, which has no chance of working reliably on the 2Go’s Wi-Fi. This is a big part of why the folks over on head-fi are reporting problems with the 2Go streaming even at 192k, and 384k being absolutely broken over Wi-Fi when targeting it via Roon."

CHORD this is an absolute disgrace for a device costing this much. You crippled a device that could have been EPIC.

ALSO while we all raise this... CHORD is fully aware of this and remains quiet.... and do not just come out and say: "The 2GO cannot and will never be able to handle files streamed over wireless above 192KHZ".

This company is losing trust.... fast.

TO WRAP... THE 2GO WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO STREAM WIRELESS ABOVE 192 RELIABLY... THIS IS NOT A FW FIX... REQUIRES A NEW WIRELESS CHIP.

CASE CLOSED

I called it a few days ago... this time next year anyone that has not read this discussion will still be complaining about this BS.

 

[Luvdac]

@SteveHulk , I have similar issues and requests regarding playlists in 2go. I have tried making batch playlists using cantata. No go. It can only do one album at a time afaik. Mp3tag makes short shrift of making playlists but they won't be recognised in 2go unless all tracks are in the root folder along with the playlists. Eehhh...
This software is really rudimentary to say the least.
1200 USD? GET REAL CHORD!

 

[Doody]

"The Wi-Fi chipset in the 2Go is garbage. It is 2.4GHz only and only advertises a single 65Mb/s stream, making it an old/crappy chip even by 802.11n standards. Keep in mind, that 65Mb/s is theoretical max, and real world will be closer to half /two-thirds that. 768k PCM is ~50Mb/s, which has no chance of working reliably on the 2Go’s Wi-Fi. This is a big part of why the folks over on head-fi are reporting problems with the 2Go streaming even at 192k, and 384k being absolutely broken over Wi-Fi when targeting it via Roon."

@Matt Bartlett can you guys comment on this chipset claim? I appreciate that Jussi may not be on your Christmas card list, but he's by NO means clueless.

I pre-ordered and owned an M Scaler. Sold it to switch to HQP (sorry!).

I'd love to see 2go support NAA. Any chance?

Doody

 

[radnor]

@Matt Bartlett can you guys comment on this chipset claim? I appreciate that Jussi may not be on your Christmas card list, but he's by NO means clueless.

I pre-ordered and owned an M Scaler. Sold it to switch to HQP (sorry!).

I'd love to see 2go support NAA. Any chance?

Doody

The second quote was not jussi but another chap quite knowledgeable in the roon forum.

from my understanding based on jussi response... hqplayer NAA could easily run on 2go compute but the cheapo wireless chip Chord chose will make it impossible.... along with the above 192 streaming issues we are having. Unfortunate. However matt should chime in here. Give us a 2GO + with 5G and HQ player. The V1 is turning into a bit of a joke.

 

[Luvdac]

Even though I just love the sound of the 2go, is it maybe time for a product recall? Take another 6months to an year but give us a working modern 2go.

 

[jarnopp]

Poly can stream just fine at Roon’s max WiFi transmission rate. I don’t see why 2Go couldn’t (or wouldn’t be able to at some point). There may be some conflict of interest between Chord and HQP, but that happens. If there isn’t cooperation, the best approach will hopefully win out in the end

 

[radnor]

SO a little more detail from my friend on the ROON forum about the crippled 2GO WIFI CHIP. TBH it is false advertising to say this is a hi-rez wireless streamer... if you start to run into trouble at 96 and it's simply incapable of streaming things above 192... CHORD really eff'd this up:

SHORT VERSION (WHICH EXACTLY EXPLAIN ALL THE ISSUES I HAVE HAD WITH 3 DIFFERENT ROUTER SETUPS):
"As you can see, reported by my Meraki (==enterprise oriented kit), the 2Go only supports a single stream. This means real-world it will get max data rate of around 20-25Mb/s, assuming “normal” interference levels and NO OTHER DEVICES on the 2.4Ghz channel consuming anything more than trivial amounts of bandwidth (e.g., your kid firing up a 2.4Ghz-only phone or laptop and streaming Disney+ at the same time will absolutely kill you).192k PCM (~12.5Mb/s) could work, but is likely to have hiccups. 384k PCM (~25Mb/s) MIGHT work when the stars are aligned, but is more or less doomed. And as said before, 768k (~50Mb/s) will never work."

LONG VERSION:
So I saw this got reposted over on head-fi (where I do not have an account), so I figured I’d give a bit more background here. Sorry for the wall of text…

Wi-Fi transmission rates have three main factors that determine their maximum theoretical bandwidth: channel width, symbol encoding scheme, and stream count.

On 2.4Ghz, channel width is fixed at 20Mhz. (Use of 40Mhz on 2.4Ghz is considered very bad neighborship – the only practical real-world usage is for point-to-point wireless links using highly directional antennas such as a Yagi.) On 5Ghz, wider channels are supported. 802.11n supports 40Mhz channels. 802.11ac and 802.11ax support up to 160Mhz channels, but that’s not really practical in the real world, except for the afore-mentioned point-to-point links. Realistic maximum is 80Mhz channels, which can work OK in the home where you typically have low density deployments. (But keep in mind density is not affected by just your kit, but all your surrounding neighbor’s kit as well.) For enterprise, channel width is usually restricted to 40Mhz, and even restricting everything to 20Mhz is quite common for mid to very dense deployments (e.g., stadiums).

The symbol encoding scheme is a variable sliding scale, referred to as the “MCS index”. The client and the AP each exchange frames indicating their max supported index. (The index actually encodes both the symbol encoding scheme and the stream count, but don’t worry about that.) They then attempt to run the connection at the maximum rate both support. For 802.11n, that would be 64-QAM encoding with 400ns guard interval, which gives a max possible rate of 72Mb/s per 20Mhz channel stream. The 2Go advertisement of 65Mb/s indicates it does not support the top MCS index, instead one down. Now, I keep mentioning “theoretical maximum”, because in the real world, you will almost never communicate at maximum signal rate. The client and AP are constantly re-evaluating the symbol encoding selection to maximize bandwidth as RF conditions change. And change they do – constantly. There is so much interference from other devices, wall penetration reducing single strength, multipath reflections, etc., that your average real-world rates are often only half the theoretical max, and can frequently be MUCH WORSE. It’s not uncommon to see single-stream 2.4Ghz top out at around 20-25Mbit/s. And that’s BEFORE you factor in Wi-Fi is a shared, half-duplex medium and other devices on your network will steal time slots, reducing those rates further. Hence why 384k PCM, which is ~25Mb/s continuous, is going to be extremely unreliable on a single-stream 2.4Ghz channel. And the ~50Mb/s of a 768k PCM (or DSD512) is a complete and utter fantasy. (While not directly relevant here, since the 2Go is an 802.11n device, 802.11ac and 802.11ax introduce more modern encoding schemes capable of even higher symbol rates within the same channel width.)

The third factor is concurrent spatial streams. Wi-Fi is based on spread spectrum technology, whereby the signal is sent on different frequencies within the channel using a mapping pattern such that the energy is “spread” across the spectrum. Using multiple radios (each with their own antenna), with their transmissions offset in the spreading pattern from each other, you can effectively transmit multiple “streams” at the same time within a single channel. There are practical limits to this, however, both in physical terms (e.g., you need separate radios, antennas and sufficient power for each stream) and electromagnetic terms (e.g., they will interfere with each other if there is not enough spacing between them, making the signal unrecoverable at the receiver). 802.11n supports a maximum of four streams. In practice, only access points support the full four streams. Most client solutions were 1x1 (single receive, single transmit – typically used for IoT devices and other low bandwidth/cheap/etc devices), 2x1 (2 receive, 1 transmit – typically used by cheap to mid tier laptops where download is more important than upload), 2x2 (high end laptops) or 3x(2|3) (extremely rare, very high end laptops – plus some PCI Wi-Fi cards for fixed-in-place desktops).




image740×1062 70.4 KB

As you can see, reported by my Meraki (==enterprise oriented kit), the 2Go only supports a single stream. This means real-world it will get max data rate of around 20-25Mb/s, assuming “normal” interference levels and NO OTHER DEVICES on the 2.4Ghz channel consuming anything more than trivial amounts of bandwidth (e.g., your kid firing up a 2.4Ghz-only phone or laptop and streaming Disney+ at the same time will absolutely kill you). 192k PCM (~12.5Mb/s) could work, but is likely to have hiccups. 384k PCM (~25Mb/s) MIGHT work when the stars are aligned, but is more or less doomed. And as said before, 768k (~50Mb/s) will never work.


Had Chord used a dual stream solution, the’d have bought the 2Go a bit of headroom such that 384k would probably work most of the time, and 768k could work when the stars are aligned, but would largely be unreliable. Better yet to have used a dual-band, dual stream solution, as then you end up with four times the real-world bandwidth of the solution they implemented. Even 768k could work then, though it would probably still suffer hiccups. Big advantage to 5Ghz is way more channels, too, so much less interference from your neighbors/etc, making for a far more reliable signal (=higher real-world symbol rates on average).

 

[radnor]

Poly can stream just fine at Roon’s max WiFi transmission rate. I don’t see why 2Go couldn’t (or wouldn’t be able to at some point). There may be some conflict of interest between Chord and HQP, but that happens. If there isn’t cooperation, the best approach will hopefully win out in the end

sorry this is NOT true. I have mojopoly and suffer the identical issues... and based on the above FORGET about HQP in any capacity in its current hardware config... aint happening.

I can only think that someone at CHORD has a brother with an external dev shop that sold them on a load of BS. I'd demand my dev dollars back... clear violation of any SLA if Chord actually put one in place with the 3rd party.

If CHORD at least acknowledged this I would not be as pissed off as I am right now. Personally I feel as if I have been deceived... with all the BS from Matt in the Poly forum and this one over the last 2 years instead of just coming out and saying... "hey guys... our wifi chip is crap so don't attempt to stream over 192khz." The hours of frustration burned... I can never get back.

 

[Luvdac]

@Matt Bartlett, care to comment?

 

[SteveHulk]

@SteveHulk , I have similar issues and requests regarding playlists in 2go. I have tried making batch playlists using cantata. No go. It can only do one album at a time afaik. Mp3tag makes short shrift of making playlists but they won't be recognised in 2go unless all tracks are in the root folder along with the playlists. Eehhh...
This software is really rudimentary to say the least.
1200 USD? GET REAL CHORD!

I did not realise that not only do the playlists have to be in the root folder of the sd card but the TRACKS also?? This is a vital piece of information. I have not seen this mentioned anywhere else. Now I realise why even my test playlists never worked.

However this makes the job of automating this process even harder. I have seen windows command line scripts that flatten a folder structure automatically, assuming that this didn't create filename conflicts which it easily could.

If this is done, however then when mp3tag (or whatever) identifies an album using the id3 track data there remains the problem of automatically generating the corresponding playlist filename. If id3 data is used to do this then I think many illegal filenames will be generated.

With a folder structure still in place the playlist filename could in all cases legally be the folder name of the leaf folder that contains the tracks. Even this assumes that the tracks are organised into folders according to the albums.

Even so, if by some miracle this process ever did complete successfully, all gofigure would show would be a flat list of horrible playlist filenames. There would anyway be no artwork associated. When browsing my library for something to play it is the artwork that is the trigger for me.

For these reasons I'm calling it a day on this effort.

When out and about I will have to make my phone the WiFi hotspot because - for reasons detailed in my previous posts - it does not work with the 2go in its hotspot mode.

I'm not at all happy about this. Normally with a Note 9 I can leave the house with a full charge in my phone and have no issue with running out of juice. Now I'm going to have to consider taking a battery pack or a charger, and charging cables with me each time I want to go for a wander with the music.

 

[gryffe]

If CHORD at least acknowledged this I would not be as pissed off as I am right now. Personally I feel as if I have been deceived... with all the BS from Matt in the Poly forum and this one over the last 2 years instead of just coming out and saying... "hey guys... our wifi chip is crap so don't attempt to stream over 192khz." The hours of frustration burned... I can never get back.

Must admit, the lack of acknowledgement from @Matt Bartlett and Chord is what pisses me off big time. I realise they are probably very busy, BUT there are major problems needing addressed with this product and just a little bit of empathy from Chord is all that is required. Just let us know what the short term plan is, that's all any of us would ask, or indeed expect.

 

[Luvdac]

I did not realise that not only do the playlists have to be in the root folder of the sd card but the TRACKS also?? This is a vital piece of information. I have not seen this mentioned anywhere else. Now I realise why even my test playlists never worked.

The tracks need to be in the root directory only for playlists made in mp3tag. Playlists made in cantata somehow work with tracks in their respective folders. Problem is I havent figured out how to make individual album playlists for the individual album folders all in one go. I've only managed one album folder at a time in cantata.

 

[Luvdac]

on a side note, I am finding music playback via roon more satisfying than sd card playback. Somehow the sd card playback sounds a bit recessed vs a fuller sound over wifi ex roon.

 

[radnor]

on a side note, I am finding music playback via roon more satisfying than sd card playback. Somehow the sd card playback sounds a bit recessed vs a fuller sound over wifi ex roon.

Makes sense.... similar to how adding something like SOTM and ROON NUC gave me an appreciable bump in SQ... I noticed it on my Poly last year when I set up the new gear. Separate server and core increase SQ.

 

[radnor]

Must admit, the lack of acknowledgement from @Matt Bartlett and Chord is what pisses me off big time. I realise they are probably very busy, BUT there are major problems needing addressed with this product and just a little bit of empathy from Chord is all that is required. Just let us know what the short term plan is, that's all any of us would ask, or indeed expect.

Very busy with what? Certainly not a new recently launched product and making loyal customers happy.... what could be more important!!!