[guerillaw]

Cannot possibly profit?

Except you get a product before the general public.
Except you get a special version not available to anyone else.
Except you pay way below retail price.
Except you get perks others can't get, ever.
Except you are part of an interesting journey full of fun, pain, sweat and tears and joy.
Except you actually make dreams happen with your investment.

Centrance in this case has certainly more expenses than the $150k they collected. Just do the math yourself but developing a product like this is, and producing it, is way more expensive, so the risk is on the company too. Plus, as an established company you risk your reputation as well. The company gains some money upfront, maybe doesn't have to take a loan, so that's a great benefit. They also gain valuable insights of what people are actually willing to pay for rather than just "want". They can adjust features and test the market to a certain extend.

I do share your frustration with this campaign though. These kind of delays are killing all the fun. Knowing what I know now, I probably wouldn't have joined. But so far all my CEntrance products were of exceptional quality sound wise. So I hope in the end we will all be happy to get a Skÿn.

Cheers,
K

 
Getting to be a pre-order customer is not profit. That is no different than getting a discount and/or a special edition collector's when I order a videogame early.
 
When I say profit I mean as an investor, meaning you provide the capital for the product to be made and sold and then have a percentage of the proceeds, if any. An investor in a product would never count any of the things you list at profit.  

 

[Koolpep]

   
Getting to be a pre-order customer is not profit. That is no different than getting a discount and/or a special edition collector's when I order a videogame early.
 
When I say profit I mean as an investor, meaning you provide the capital for the product to be made and sold and then have a percentage of the proceeds, if any. An investor in a product would never count any of the things you list at profit.  

I know. But you are not an investor when using indiegogo, kickstarter or any crowdfunding platforms. They make that very clear that you are "contributing/pledging money to a campaign/project". You are never purchasing shares, options, equity, or anything remotely similar to that.
 
You are not investing, you are contributing or pledging to buy something in exchange for clearly defined benefits. So the way a normal person profits from contributing is exactly these benefits they can only get when joining the campaign.
 
And yes, it's pretty much exactly what you describe: a discount/benefit for forking out money early. That's how someone can profit from these offers. 
 
Cheers,
K

 

[guerillaw]

 
I know. But you are not an investor when using indiegogo, kickstarter or any crowdfunding platforms. They make that very clear that you are "contributing/pledging money to a campaign/project". You are never purchasing shares, options, equity, or anything remotely similar to that.
 
You are not investing, you are contributing or pledging to buy something in exchange for clearly defined benefits. So the way a normal person profits from contributing is exactly these benefits they can only get when joining the campaign.
 
And yes, it's pretty much exactly what you describe: a discount/benefit for forking out money early. That's how someone can profit from these offers. 
 
Cheers,
K

Thanks for trying to continue a dialogue but you are missing the point of my original post. 
 
You ARE an investor insofar as they are using YOUR capital to bring their product to market. That is the dictionary definition of an investment. The difference is that you do not get any investor profit but rather some, to be polite, "intrigue" and decent pre-order discounts. The companies are using the customers to get free investment capital without any need to provide a return to the customer. 
 
This would be fine if the product were delivered in the general time frame and with a steep discount that would provide a real incentive, but that is not the case here. My main issue is that while anything can happen and there is risk to everything, this is the SECOND time the IDENTICAL situation occurred with the same company but they purposely chose to follow the same route and treat their customers the same way again. 
 
I love the company's products and I still think the original dacport, especially now on the used market, is one of the best deals in head-fi and the best way to get people interested in the hobby. This does not mean the company is above criticism and is always right. This time they are wrong. They should not have raised expectations and given unrealistic release dates given their past experience with delays on a similar product. 

 

[Koolpep]

Thanks for trying to continue a dialogue but you are missing the point of my original post. 

You ARE an investor insofar as they are using YOUR capital to bring their product to market. That is the dictionary definition of an investment. The difference is that you do not get any investor profit but rather some, to be polite, "intrigue" and decent pre-order discounts. The companies are using the customers to get free investment capital without any need to provide a return to the customer. 

This would be fine if the product were delivered in the general time frame and with a steep discount that would provide a real incentive, but that is not the case here. My main issue is that while anything can happen and there is risk to everything, this is the SECOND time the IDENTICAL situation occurred with the same company but they purposely chose to follow the same route and treat their customers the same way again. 

I love the company's products and I still think the original dacport, especially now on the used market, is one of the best deals in head-fi and the best way to get people interested in the hobby. This does not mean the company is above criticism and is always right. This time they are wrong. They should not have raised expectations and given unrealistic release dates given their past experience with delays on a similar product. 

Totally agree with you. The delays are getting silly and a company with that many products (which unlike a lot ) under their belt should have known better from the start.

Though I do think depending when you joined - you do get quite a steep discount, 31% in my case.

And for the investment, well, they use the money as investment but in able to not give you any rights and liability on their part, they limit your return to the perk you signed up for. My main point as to mention that you are basically an investor without any rights or entitlements an investor would have, so they classify you as a contributor, rather than investor. One should eye very careful what one is supporting with their hard earned cash, indeed. lots of products don't even make it at all and there is nothing you get back....

Let's cross fingers that these babies still get shipped in the next few weeks and we can finally be happy or more frustrated depending on how good the product is.

Cheers,
K

 

[Dexter Morgan]

Dissertation follows... you've been warned
 
I think everybody's made some fair points. I can't really be angry at a company for unexpected delays. I guess my gripe with this project (or maybe I should say concern) is that one could argue a pattern of misleading the customer has emerged.
 
1. They painted an overly rosy timeline and "should have known better." My concern is that they did know better, but did it anyways to generate more interest and capital.
 
2. There are constant updates, which seemed nice a while back. In hindsight, the updates were overly-rosy too and made it seem like there was just one more step to go... Again, that generates more enthusiasm and gives the consumer a sense of urgency ("Better donate now before the campaign ends!"), but seems misleading.
 
3. As Koolpep points out, with these campaigns there are supposed to be clearly defined benefits. One of these was that the amp would automatically get upgraded if a certain contribution level were met. There was no mention of increasing the cost for said perk, yet CEntrance did just that once the goal was met. Doesn't get more misleading than that.
 
4. Michael "suggested" for several months that the retail price would be $500, while still selling a discounted version on Indigogo for $350. Several months later, the actual retail price appeared on the CEntrance website for $400 with no mention of the change. Suddenly the discount price isn't such a great deal, but I'm sure it prompted more orders on Indigogo for a couple of months. I placed one of those orders, and certainly wouldn't have done so knowingly for a $50 discount on what is currently vaporware.
 
All these points could be a mere coincidence. And of course, backing a project on Indigogo is a risk, and there are no guarantees. One shouldn't participate in such a campaign unless they can afford the possibility of a loss. That being said, the decision to back a company on Indigogo is based on faith in that company. You believe that the company will act in good faith, and you have faith in their abilities. At least in this regard, I've lost my faith in CEntrance... not in their ability to make a great product, but in their trustworthiness and level of respect for their customers.

 

[louderthebetter]

Recent update from Entrance gave me an insight in to the tough situation they are in.
Though it is frustrating and disappointing, knowing that they are in such a tight spot makes me feel silly for getting angry.
They were having hard time to accept they messed up a little and laying it out in open will help some of us understand and accept the delay
Hope they will come out of this ordeal as winners.
Will patiently wait for few more weeks( will stop whining for now)

 

[coastal1]

  Recent update from Entrance gave me an insight in to the tough situation they are in.
Though it is frustrating and disappointing, knowing that they are in such a tight spot makes me feel silly for getting angry.
They were having hard time to accept they messed up a little and laying it out in open will help some of us understand and accept the delay
Hope they will come out of this ordeal as winners.
Will patiently wait for few more weeks( will stop whining for now)

 
I don't know, of course Apple is going to have pretty demanding standards before granting approval to sell.  This doesn't surprise me as a mere consumer, shouldn't surprise people that work in the industry.

 

[DrSheep]

 
I don't know, of course Apple is going to have pretty demanding standards before granting approval to sell.  This doesn't surprise me as a mere consumer, shouldn't surprise people that work in the industry.

True but big companies f-up their own test quite often then blame you for it.  My family was in the toy industry making toys for Radio Shack in the 90's and 2000s, and one time they failed us on a product because they tested the plastic knob at 1000 lb. of force instead of 100 lb., then blamed us on the failures instead of the bad test, which turned into a huge deal.  Eventually it was sorted out but we never deal with them again and they went bankrupt.

 

[coastal1]

True, but a lot of these updates have expressed surprise at how demanding the Apple approval process is. This is either extremely naive or disingenuous, not sure which is worse. For example, the first issue mentioned in the most recent update is that Apple is making the Skyn conform to Apple's general charging requirements rather than granting an exception. I just don't see why they are surprised that a company like Apple is sticking to the general requirements, or why this wasn't vetted a long long time ago.

Certainly possible that the less specific testing issues are Apple's fault, but things like the above don't give me a lot of confidence in CEntrance's preparation or honesty.

True but big companies f-up their own test quite often then blame you for it.  My family was in the toy industry making toys for Radio Shack in the 90's and 2000s, and one time they failed us on a product because they tested the plastic knob at 1000 lb. of force instead of 100 lb., then blamed us on the failures instead of the bad test, which turned into a huge deal.  Eventually it was sorted out but we never deal with them again and they went bankrupt.

 

[DrSheep]

Please tell me how it was Mike's fault when Apple was breaking their own test spec?

 

[coastal1]

  Please tell me how it was Mike's fault when Apple was breaking their own test spec?

 
To the extent that's true, certainly not the fault of CEntrance.  I'm just agreeing with others that have rightly pointed out that there has been some misinformation/overly-rosy updates throughout this process that undermines the credibility of the most recent updates, particularly when we're only hearing one side of the story re: the apple tests.  It's unfortunate because the most recent delays could indeed be 100% Apple's fault, but based on the cumulative updates, it's also possible that CEntrance shares at least some responsibility in the delays.  As others have noted, I'm still fully confident that CEntrance can make a great product, but I've lost some faith in its trustworthiness and explanations.

 

[DrSheep]

 
To the extent that's true, certainly not the fault of CEntrance.  I'm just agreeing with others that have rightly pointed out that there has been some misinformation/overly-rosy updates throughout this process that undermines the credibility of the most recent updates, particularly when we're only hearing one side of the story re: the apple tests.  It's unfortunate because the most recent delays could indeed be 100% Apple's fault, but based on the cumulative updates, it's also possible that CEntrance shares at least some responsibility in the delays.  As others have noted, I'm still fully confident that CEntrance can make a great product, but I've lost some faith in its trustworthiness and explanations.

Well here is the thing, I can understand your feelings but cloud sourcing on a new product is never easy.  If you want to read up on some of our old adventures, then I suggest you read some of the posting for the CEntrance HiFi-M8 and the V-Moda M-100 thread.  Sometimes you just got to have faith.  For example, I am one of the first people to order the Hyetis Crossbow smart watch back in Aug 2013 to be delivered sometime early 2014, but after months of development and no show, most people were screaming left and right for a refund.  To this day it is still a no show, but I finally got some communication from them on the status so there is still hope.  Remember that most of the more senior Head-Fi'er whom had deal with Mike before knows he is a stand up guy, but you can't win them all, especially when Apple was involved.

 

[coastal1]

  Well here is the thing, I can understand your feelings but cloud sourcing on a new product is never easy.  If you want to read up on some of our old adventures, then I suggest you read some of the posting for the CEntrance HiFi-M8 and the V-Moda M-100 thread.  Sometimes you just got to have faith.  For example, I am one of the first people to order the Hyetis Crossbow smart watch back in Aug 2013 to be delivered sometime early 2014, but after months of development and no show, most people were screaming left and right for a refund.  To this day it is still a no show, but I finally got some communication from them on the status so there is still hope.  Remember that most of the more senior Head-Fi'er whom had deal with Mike before knows he is a stand up guy, but you can't win them all, especially when Apple was involved.

 
I'm well aware that there's no guarantees with these types of releases, and I'm well aware that other products have had much longer (hopefully) delays.  The reputation of CEntrance is why I'm disappointed with the nature of some the 'updates.'  I certainly have not lost faith that CEntrance will ultimately deliver a quality product. 

 

[Maelob]

I have faith in them too.  
 
On a related topic, Just saw some interesting developments on phone DACs. Looks like some companies like Audeze are starting to develop a cable DAC/Amp that connects directly to the Lighting connector.  I think thats going to be the future.  I love the high end players but nothing can beat the convenience of a phone.   I would like to see more companies trying to come up with similar cables.

 

[walbum4262]

I just need some clarification here if someone can help with that.

I backed the project back in April for 224$ and I was advices by CEntrace to do the amp extreme upgrade and saw the benefits of doing that and payed 79$ for the upgrade.

I also backed the better DAC ship for 59$ as I thought that it was an upgrade that I could pay for but I found out it was a stretch goal of 100k that was already made and the option had not been removed so I waisted 59$ on that.

The final unit that CEntrace has on there webpage will that be with the amp extreme as a standard option ? For 400$ ?