Cayin N7: A Voyager of Unexplored Frontier

Jun 4, 2024 at 12:42 PM Post #1,907 of 2,072
I believe the only way is to use a player that will convert DSD to PCM, then it can be EQ'ed before being converted back to DSD. DSD is an interesting beast and not the easiest to work with.
 
Jun 4, 2024 at 12:53 PM Post #1,909 of 2,072
Yep...destiny....crash the iems, get the Subtonic Storm, hope to avoid divorce after paying... 🤣🤣🤣🤣
If you don’t mind the addition, would recommend something hardware based like the schiit lokius.
 
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Jun 7, 2024 at 2:52 AM Post #1,911 of 2,072
Is there actually any possible way to EQ/PEQ DSD on the N7?

Wanna tame down some piercing treble before I crash the iems....😭😁

Please understand that DSD is a 1-bit-based format, it doesn't allow DSP processing like multibit formats. You can consider DSD a non-editable format. For this reason, Mastering Engineers will need to employ an interim format such as DXD to perform their usual DSP or plugins during the mastering session.

That explains why you cannot EQ or PEQ DSD on the N7. This is the limitation of the music format, not a restriction of N7. Thanks to other users who have pointed out that the only way to perform any form of EQ (or digital processing) on DSD is to transform the music file into PCM format. I suppose this is not something I'll recommend unless you seriously dislike the "piercing" treble of N7, and you are going to crash the IEMs because of that.
 
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Jun 7, 2024 at 3:05 AM Post #1,912 of 2,072
Please understand that DSD is a 1-bit-based format, it doesn't allow DSP processing like multibit formats. You can consider DSD a non-editable format. For this reason, Mastering Engineers will need to employ an interim format such as DXD to perform their usual DSP or plugins during the mastering session.

That explains why you cannot EQ or PEQ DSD on the N7. This is the limitation of the music format, not a restriction of N7. Thanks to other users who have pointed out that the only way to perform any form of EQ (or digital processing) on DSD is to transform the music file into PCM format. I suppose this is not something I'll recommend unless you seriously dislike the "piercing" treble of N7, and you are going to crash the IEMs because of that.
Hey, thanks for the reply!
I was jokingly saying that I need better iems worth the N7 sound quality. (It's not the N7 but the iems. Again that was a joke I ain't crashing a Monarch MkIII. They will be assigned to the RU6 which in NOS mode works great with such treble.)

But your explanation is very useful to confirm that DSD is not EQ-able (unless converted to PCM which makes no sense).
 
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Jun 7, 2024 at 3:33 AM Post #1,913 of 2,072
Hey, thanks for the reply!
I was jokingly saying that I need better iems worth the N7 sound quality. (It's not the N7 but the iems. Again that was a joke I ain't crashing a Monarch MkIII. They will be assigned to the RU6 which in NOS mode works great with such treble.)

But your explanation is very useful to confirm that DSD is not EQ-able (unless converted to PCM which makes no sense).
Could you not just turn the volume down a bit? I have zero issues with the Monarch MKIII, great IEM, no EQ required but I probably listen at 80dB absolute max.
 
Jun 7, 2024 at 4:04 AM Post #1,914 of 2,072
Could you not just turn the volume down a bit? I have zero issues with the Monarch MKIII, great IEM, no EQ required but I probably listen at 80dB absolute max.
You suggested to lower my volume, given you have no idea what volume I use...wonder what's your actual point.

That doesn't work. You might read about linearity of frequency response to volume changes. Treble is not volume dependent unlike bass, so the treble peaks stand out more at low volumes where bass is impacted in a stronger way. Some brands like Marantz even implement systems to account for the nonlinear response of the frequency range to decreasing volume.

The MMk3 is an excellent iem, but the issue with its too hot treble tuning was widely discussed in the relevant threads here and on Discord. Perhaps your treble hearing or preferences are different, but the Monarch MkIII is not the topic here.
 
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Jun 7, 2024 at 4:12 AM Post #1,915 of 2,072
You might read about linearity of frequency response to volume changes. Treble is not volume dependent unlike bass, so the treble peaks stand out more at low volumes where bass is impacted in a stronger way. Some brands like Marantz even implement systems to account for the nonlinear response of the frequency range to decreasing volume.

The MMk3 is an excellent iem, still the issue with piercing treble tuning was widely discussed in the relevant threads here and on Discord. Perhaps your treble hearing or preferences are different, but the Monarch MkIII is not the topic here.
Take it to the MK3 thread then if you want but in the N7 thread I'd disagree with the concept that the treble response of any transducer isn't volume dependant is wrong. If I turn up the volume treble gets louder along with the whole audio spectrum. The Bass and Mids generally less cause issues like the treble does as the volume goes up. I see people saying this or that IEM or headphone is "shouty" its shouty because your ears are begging you to turn it down but instead people want less treble, via EQ or a different source with a warmer sound so they can turn it up. I wont reply again because as you say other than the EQ on N7 this is off topic.
 
Jun 7, 2024 at 4:30 AM Post #1,916 of 2,072
Take it to the MK3 thread then if you want but in the N7 thread I'd disagree with the concept that the treble response of any transducer isn't volume dependant is wrong. If I turn up the volume treble gets louder along with the whole audio spectrum. The Bass and Mids generally less cause issues like the treble does as the volume goes up. I see people saying this or that IEM or headphone is "shouty" its shouty because your ears are begging you to turn it down but instead people want less treble, via EQ or a different source with a warmer sound so they can turn it up. I wont reply again because as you say other than the EQ on N7 this is off topic.
You suggested to lower my volume, given you have no idea what volume I use...

Lowering the volume is lowering the lower frequencies more than the higher frequencies due to both how drivers operate at different levels of energy and also how we perceive frequencies with different wave lengths.

Marantz AVRs and Amps imply a system to EQ up the bass when you lower your volume to maintain the same relative frequency perception at different volumes.

Treble is perceived in relation to other frequencies. That's why you have so many V-shape iem tunings, just a few L-shape and no reverse L-shape tunings.
 
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Jun 7, 2024 at 5:34 AM Post #1,917 of 2,072
We have received several EQ/PEQ questions from PM, email, and forum discussion after we added this feature in the v1.6 Firmware. To make our users understand the strengths and limitations of these new features, I have decided to consolidate related information into one post and pin this to the FAQ in Post#2.

We have prepared a short video to explain the PEQ features of N3Ultra, while we were referring to another DAP in this video, the concepts and steps are the same, so we can use this video as a starter for our PEQ explanation:



The new EQ/PEQ function is a system-level audio adjustment, the EQ/PEQ setting, once enabled, applies to all system or third-party applications such as music player app. or streaming apps, including but not limited to Neutron, UAPP, Spotify, Tidal, Qobuz, ....

The EQ/PEQ are processed entirely in the digital domain. To simplify the concept, you can consider the EQ/PEQ as adding one or more digital filters as pre-processing before passing the bitstream to the 1-bit DAC circuit in N7. Based on this assumption, we can now examine the limitations of our EQ/PEQ implementation.

(1) EQ/PEQ does not apply to the MQA format because MQA wants to deliver a studio experience to its users. To let the users hear the music as close to the original recording/mastering, they don't want any additional audio processing on top of the MQA playback. They have specified the digital filters in due course and users are not allowed to change the digital filters. So MQA format is not compatible with our EQ/PEQ functions.

(2) EQ/PEQ does not apply to the DSD format because DSD is a 1-bit-based format, it doesn't allow DSP processing like multibit formats. For this reason, Mastering Engineers will need to employ an interim format such as DXD to perform their usual DSP or plugins during the DSD mastering session. That explains why you cannot EQ or PEQ DSD on the N7. This is the limitation of the music format, not a restriction of N7.

In other words, turning EQ/PEQ on or off will not do anything with MQA and DSD. There is no need to disable EQ/PEQ function in order to get "original" MQA and DSD playback.

On top of the frequency adjustment feature, we have embedded a pre-amp control in the EQ/PEQ interface.

During the adjustment of EQ/PEQ, if you set the gain (or level) in some EQ/PEQ frequencies or bands to be relatively high, you might introduce distortion in certain frequency ranges at occasional music passages. In our previous EQ functions, we try to compensate for this by reducing the output by 6dB "automatically" when you enable EQ. This -6dB procedure is applied, and this is regardless of whether you have increased or decreased the levels in your EQ setting.

The new EQ/PEQ function replaced the -6dB compensation with an unser-controlled Pre-Amp function. This will allow the user to adjust the compensated output level explicitly, and eliminate the need to reduce the output level. The EQ/PEQ becomes more transparent and you can hear the effect intuitively. This is a necessary "additional" audio processing to the EQ/PEQ function but you can bypass this control by setting the Pre-Amp to 0dB.

1717752775758.png

1717752863386.png
 
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Jun 7, 2024 at 7:16 AM Post #1,918 of 2,072
We have received several EQ/PEQ questions from PM, email, and forum discussion after we added this feature in the v1.6 Firmware. To make our users understand the strengths and limitations of these new features, I have decided to consolidate related information into one post and pin this to the FAQ in Post#2.

We have prepared a short video to explain the PEQ features of N3Ultra, while we were referring to another DAP in this video, the concepts and steps are the same, so we can use this video as a starter for our PEQ explanation:



The new EQ/PEQ function is a system-level audio adjustment, the EQ/PEQ setting, once enabled, applies to all system or third-party applications such as music player app. or streaming apps, including but not limited to Neutron, UAPP, Spotify, Tidal, Qobuz, ....

The EQ/PEQ are processed entirely in the digital domain. To simplify the concept, you can consider the EQ/PEQ as adding one or more digital filters as pre-processing before passing the bitstream to the 1-bit DAC circuit in N7. Based on this assumption, we can now examine the limitations of our EQ/PEQ implementation.

(1) EQ/PEQ does not apply to the MQA format because MQA wants to deliver a studio experience to its users. To let the users hear the music as close to the original recording/mastering, they don't want any additional audio processing on top of the MQA playback. They have specified the digital filters in due course and users are not allowed to change the digital filters. So MQA format is not compatible with our EQ/PEQ functions.

(2) EQ/PEQ does not apply to the DSD format because DSD is a 1-bit-based format, it doesn't allow DSP processing like multibit formats. For this reason, Mastering Engineers will need to employ an interim format such as DXD to perform their usual DSP or plugins during the DSD mastering session. That explains why you cannot EQ or PEQ DSD on the N7. This is the limitation of the music format, not a restriction of N7.

In other words, turning EQ/PEQ on or off will not do anything with MQA and DSD. There is no need to disable EQ/PEQ function in order to get "original" MQA and DSD playback.

On top of the frequency adjustment feature, we have embedded a pre-amp control in the EQ/PEQ interface.

During the adjustment of EQ/PEQ, if you set the gain (or level) in some EQ/PEQ frequencies or bands to be relatively high, you might introduce distortion in certain frequency ranges at occasional music passages. In our previous EQ functions, we try to compensate for this by reducing the output by 6dB "automatically" when you enable EQ. This -6dB procedure is applied, and this is regardless of whether you have increased or decreased the levels in your EQ setting.

The new EQ/PEQ function replaced the -6dB compensation with an unser-controlled Pre-Amp function. This will allow the user to adjust the compensated output level explicitly, and eliminate the need to reduce the output level. The EQ/PEQ becomes more transparent and you can hear the effect intuitively. This is a necessary "additional" audio processing to the EQ/PEQ function but you can bypass this control by setting the Pre-Amp to 0dB.

1717752775758.png
1717752863386.png

Amazing post. I have to say Cayin has done a marvelous job with the PEQ and now that it’s systemwide, it has opened up the listening opportunities for me. Really I just wanted to say thank you for the great feature and detailed explanation of which audio formats are excluded.
 
Jun 7, 2024 at 7:44 AM Post #1,919 of 2,072
We have received several EQ/PEQ questions from PM, email, and forum discussion after we added this feature in the v1.6 Firmware. To make our users understand the strengths and limitations of these new features, I have decided to consolidate related information into one post and pin this to the FAQ in Post#2.

We have prepared a short video to explain the PEQ features of N3Ultra, while we were referring to another DAP in this video, the concepts and steps are the same, so we can use this video as a starter for our PEQ explanation:



The new EQ/PEQ function is a system-level audio adjustment, the EQ/PEQ setting, once enabled, applies to all system or third-party applications such as music player app. or streaming apps, including but not limited to Neutron, UAPP, Spotify, Tidal, Qobuz, ....

The EQ/PEQ are processed entirely in the digital domain. To simplify the concept, you can consider the EQ/PEQ as adding one or more digital filters as pre-processing before passing the bitstream to the 1-bit DAC circuit in N7. Based on this assumption, we can now examine the limitations of our EQ/PEQ implementation.

(1) EQ/PEQ does not apply to the MQA format because MQA wants to deliver a studio experience to its users. To let the users hear the music as close to the original recording/mastering, they don't want any additional audio processing on top of the MQA playback. They have specified the digital filters in due course and users are not allowed to change the digital filters. So MQA format is not compatible with our EQ/PEQ functions.

(2) EQ/PEQ does not apply to the DSD format because DSD is a 1-bit-based format, it doesn't allow DSP processing like multibit formats. For this reason, Mastering Engineers will need to employ an interim format such as DXD to perform their usual DSP or plugins during the DSD mastering session. That explains why you cannot EQ or PEQ DSD on the N7. This is the limitation of the music format, not a restriction of N7.

In other words, turning EQ/PEQ on or off will not do anything with MQA and DSD. There is no need to disable EQ/PEQ function in order to get "original" MQA and DSD playback.

On top of the frequency adjustment feature, we have embedded a pre-amp control in the EQ/PEQ interface.

During the adjustment of EQ/PEQ, if you set the gain (or level) in some EQ/PEQ frequencies or bands to be relatively high, you might introduce distortion in certain frequency ranges at occasional music passages. In our previous EQ functions, we try to compensate for this by reducing the output by 6dB "automatically" when you enable EQ. This -6dB procedure is applied, and this is regardless of whether you have increased or decreased the levels in your EQ setting.

The new EQ/PEQ function replaced the -6dB compensation with an unser-controlled Pre-Amp function. This will allow the user to adjust the compensated output level explicitly, and eliminate the need to reduce the output level. The EQ/PEQ becomes more transparent and you can hear the effect intuitively. This is a necessary "additional" audio processing to the EQ/PEQ function but you can bypass this control by setting the Pre-Amp to 0dB.



Thanks to Cayin for bringing so much freedom to users!

System-wide SRC bypass + System-wide PEQ were critical on the software side to unlock the full potential of the amazing creativity and engineering on the hardware side.

Andy....you should charge your DAP 😁
 
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Jun 12, 2024 at 2:49 PM Post #1,920 of 2,072
Very interested in the N7 to upgrade from my Fiio M15, but I have no possibility to demo. Anyone here heard the M15 and the N7?

I like my M15, but I don’t think it’s really engaging.

Hoping to demo the N7 at CanJam London. @Andykong, any idea if the N7 will be available for demo during CanJam London?
 

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