Cayin N3 Hi-Res DAP with AKM4490 DAC, apt-X Bluetooth, and Line, USB & Coax Out for $150
May 15, 2017 at 11:51 AM Post #1,832 of 6,262
Hi guys,

About to bite the bullet on a black N3, my first-ever DAP (unless you consider the iPhone a DAP). Have a few questions, but let's start with this: does anyone know if the N3's DSD playback is native, or does it convert to PCM internally first? Also, depending on which feature list you read, the N3 supports DSD64, DSD128 or DSD256. Which one is it (or all three)? And has anyone tried an A/B of a DSD file vs another uncompressed (and lower bitrate) format on the N3? Can't wait for mine to land! :)

Thx.
 
May 15, 2017 at 1:51 PM Post #1,833 of 6,262
@Omoshai. Welcome to Head-Fi. What you're going to find is that everyone here pretty much listens to music in a unique way compared to others. I think that I have a good understanding of your challenges ahead.

I have to apologize for the length of this post. For most this will be TLDR

First, to answer your question about no file. I believe the issue is that playlists are like a table of contents and the music file is your content or chapter. The playlist is trying to direct the player to the location of your file. So you need to make sure that the playlist is pointing to the correct directory location of your file, and that the file has actually been copied there. The Apple Eco system does a great job of creating your playlists, and then copying your files over for you and you just play.

To do the same thing in an audiophile DAP, you have to carefully create your directory structure, have your playlists in the correct directory location for the DAP to read, have the Playlist files formatted correctly to point where your music files are, have the music directories formatted correctly to where the playlist is pointing, and have the file named correctly and in the correct location. (Anyone who uses playlists feel free to correct anything that I've said incorrectly.)

Unfortunately, I can't help you any farther than this. As I don't use playlists on my audiophile DAPs. Here is the unique way that I listen to MY music.
1. 320CBR MP3>Normalized to 90dB with MP3 Gain program>Itunes 10.x>Smart Playlist>Ipod Nano 16G>LOD>RaySamuels Intruder amp>Trinity Audio Delta VII iem with gunmetal filters>Trinity Kombi tips>my ears. :)
2. FLAC Files>MicroSD card>iBasso DX50>multiple different amps>multiple different headphones and iem.

Also. I'm on Windows platform, so some of the programs I have may not be usable on MAC.

1. Apple Hostage situation.
As you can see, I am held hostage by my use of playlists and Apple. Through the years, I have rated each and every one of my 35,000+ songs from 1 to 5 stars. I create smart playlists that select my favorite music and ensure that I haven't heard it in a long time. For example, for the Nano, I will create a 200 song playlist. I will have iTunes randomly choose 75 5star songs that I haven't heard in 3 months or more, 75 4star songs that I haven't heard in 6 months or more, and 50 3star songs that I haven't heard in a year or more. As I listen to the songs, the date/time played will update, and it will fall off the playlist and new ones will be added. I love hearing my favorite songs this way and never know what is coming up next. Also all my MP3s are normalized with "MP3 Gain" program at 90dB so that I don't get extreme changes in volume by switching between the different songs.

Unfortunately Apple is driving me farther and farther away. I use an ipod Nano 6G with the 30 pin dock. My itunes is frozen in time at 10.x. My aftermarket equipment is 30 pin docks. In fact, I just cracked the screen on my Nano 6G two week ago and had to venture onto ebay to get a replacement because I'm not willing to move to the Lightning system. I'm going to try to get another nano 6G or two and to fix the one I have. That way I should be covered for a while with my itunes listening equipiment.

2. Audiophile listening experience
The other way I listen is with FLAC lossless files. For ripping FLAC files (and also for ripping into iTunes), I use the program "dB Power Amp". I rip to FLAC level 5 and have it evaluated for "replay gain" and embed that information into the files. I pretty much just rip these to a FLAC directory structure that mirrors how iTunes is set up. I have a 2TB hard drive with :\\FLAC\Artists\Albums\01...file. Very similar to what Nick Matheis showed you above. After I rip in FLAC, I use the dB Power Amp function to convert those to MP3 320CBR and import those into iTunes. I essentially have a huge database of 35,000+ MP3s, and I'm slowly ripping my favorites to FLAC and anything new I purchase is ripped to FLAC.

For listening to my flac files, I hook my DAP up to one of my many different amps via line out. I have a Ray Samuels Intruder amp which has balanced output or single end output. I have a Peachtree Audio Decco 65 desktop amp with a coaxial input, and a Unison research SH class A tube amp with line input. I also have a few other portable amps but I mainly use one of the three above.

When I listen to the FLAC files, it is more like when I was a kid growing up and I will choose what album I want to listen to, and listen to the entire album all the way through. Also, the DAP I have at this time, (Ibasso DX50) does not currently have replay gain functionality. So any kind of random or playlist functionality would have large swings in volume. Which I hate. I'm excited to see that the N3 will have replay gain. I've embedded all my FLAC files with replaygain info, but have never gotten the chance to try to use it.

So as you can see, my audiophile listening is more geared to artistic album pursuits, and my casual listening is apple playlists.

I honestly don't know what I will have to do when the apple platform forces me off of the ancient 30 pin equipment. Guess I will have to leave apple behind at that point and change how I listen to music.

I don't know if this helps at all, but I do understand your challenges, and wish you the best with the way that YOU listen to your music. Let me know if you have any questions.

Extremely insightful, thanks very much Howlin Fester. Must say, head-fi community may be the most welcoming forum to new people :). Unfortunately the Portable Source Gear sticky links in the forum don't work, but its very clear I need to read up on the basics of how these DAP's operate and the best use for each scenario. I have been lurking on the forum for a little while trying to decide on DAP but failed to appreciate how much more of a change it is then just user interfaces.

iTunes smart playlist and normal ones are how I currently organize and listen to music, though no where as advanced as you have them set up haha. I think if I get playlists working using 'Dapper' or other music software, this replicates enough functionality from an iDevice to keep me going.
 
May 15, 2017 at 3:39 PM Post #1,834 of 6,262
@Mr Trev @nmatheis @deltabi Thanks a lot guys for the responses - It really is a shock and confusing trying to transition, it's quite hard to appreciate how 'different' the ecosystem works and how more manual everything is. Certainly will persevere however for a better music experience.

Downloaded Dapper trial and its worked great! solved the issues I have seemingly getting the N3 to 'sync' first time. Will certainly try Musicbee and Metadatics after work also as the non trial version price of Dapper seems crazy at £20 :fearful:

My biggest issue now is Playlist's. I created a Playlist folder using Dapper, and though my iTunes built playlists show correctly on the N3, when I try to play a song I now get 'Play Failed. No File!' error, even though the music has synced fine.

How does everyone create playlists from a computer (preferably mac perspective...) and get them successfully to these DAP'S?

As already explained, the playlist actually is a file which contain references (paths) to the songs contained in the playlist itself. For the playlist to work correctly the references must be "exact", i.e. they must contain the exact "path" of the song files. Dapper can build "on the fly" while syncing your DAP device these paths, but it must be instructed correctly to do so. It's a little time consuming but after you define correctly the various parameters in the Dapper software then you'll get what you want: iTunes playlists copied in your DAP. I suggest you to read the Dapper documentation and try yourself. The Dapper producer maybe can help somehow, put yourself in contact with him.
Good luck!
 
May 15, 2017 at 9:56 PM Post #1,835 of 6,262
About to bite the bullet on a black N3, my first-ever DAP (unless you consider the iPhone a DAP). Have a few questions, but let's start with this: does anyone know if the N3's DSD playback is native, or does it convert to PCM internally first?

One of the nice features the Cayin has is native processing. DSD bitrates are somewhere in the specs; I recall it being way more powerful than the puny files I have.
 
May 16, 2017 at 1:27 PM Post #1,836 of 6,262
As already explained, the playlist actually is a file which contain references (paths) to the songs contained in the playlist itself. For the playlist to work correctly the references must be "exact", i.e. they must contain the exact "path" of the song files. Dapper can build "on the fly" while syncing your DAP device these paths, but it must be instructed correctly to do so. It's a little time consuming but after you define correctly the various parameters in the Dapper software then you'll get what you want: iTunes playlists copied in your DAP. I suggest you to read the Dapper documentation and try yourself. The Dapper producer maybe can help somehow, put yourself in contact with him.
Good luck!

Thanks again delatbi, I have been able with Dapper to create playlists which work (for the most part..) however from reading the Dapper guide and having tried all the settings, I have been unable to create playlists which correctly locate music files in my preferred organisational structure.

I am attempting to create the following structure for music and playlists:

SD Card > Library > Artist first Alphabet > Artist > Album > Music file
SD Card > Playlist > Playlist folder 1 > Playlist folder 2 > Playlist file/.m3u

I want my first holding playlist folders, sitting on the top level with my music library folder, and I would like to have many folders with different levels, before accessing the actual playlist file/s. Currently, I can build the library folder as I want fine, but I have to locate all playlists as SD Card > Playlists. No folders or subfolders, only in the 'root'.

I sent the N3 automated report to Dapper so they can investigate and create a profile, but since the N3 OS I believe is used across lots of DAP's I presume there is already a way to create playlists with exact paths?
 
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May 16, 2017 at 2:26 PM Post #1,837 of 6,262
I'm sure loving mine and glad I went with the blue now since most of my DAP's a black or gray! This is one sweet combo right here:wink:

Noble Cayin.JPG
 
May 16, 2017 at 3:06 PM Post #1,838 of 6,262
Thanks again delatbi, I have been able with Dapper to create playlists which work (for the most part..) however from reading the Dapper guide and having tried all the settings, I have been unable to create playlists which correctly locate music files in my preferred organisational structure.

I am attempting to create the following structure for music and playlists:

SD Card > Library > Artist first Alphabet > Artist > Album > Music file
SD Card > Playlist > Playlist folder 1 > Playlist folder 2 > Playlist file/.m3u

I want my first holding playlist folders, sitting on the top level with my music library folder, and I would like to have many folders with different levels, before accessing the actual playlist file/s. Currently, I can build the library folder as I want fine, but I have to locate all playlists as SD Card > Playlists. No folders or subfolders, only in the 'root'.

I sent the N3 automated report to Dapper so they can investigate and create a profile, but since the N3 OS I believe is used across lots of DAP's I presume there is already a way to create playlists with exact paths?

Nice to hear it's working!
I think playlist location is more a DAP question than a Dapper one. I believe the playlist files location is defined in the DAP software, hence you are requested to put all those files in the same folder (i.e. SD>Playlist). Probably @CayinSupport can chime in and confirm it.
 
May 16, 2017 at 4:43 PM Post #1,839 of 6,262
AV Gear will have black in stock in a few days. Lucky Canada.
 
May 16, 2017 at 4:45 PM Post #1,840 of 6,262
I'm sure loving mine and glad I went with the blue now since most of my DAP's a black or gray! This is one sweet combo right here:wink:


And a great piece of music too

depechemode20171.jpg
 
May 16, 2017 at 7:33 PM Post #1,842 of 6,262
Thanks again delatbi, I have been able with Dapper to create playlists which work (for the most part..) however from reading the Dapper guide and having tried all the settings, I have been unable to create playlists which correctly locate music files in my preferred organisational structure.

I am attempting to create the following structure for music and playlists:

SD Card > Library > Artist first Alphabet > Artist > Album > Music file
SD Card > Playlist > Playlist folder 1 > Playlist folder 2 > Playlist file/.m3u

I want my first holding playlist folders, sitting on the top level with my music library folder, and I would like to have many folders with different levels, before accessing the actual playlist file/s. Currently, I can build the library folder as I want fine, but I have to locate all playlists as SD Card > Playlists. No folders or subfolders, only in the 'root'.

I sent the N3 automated report to Dapper so they can investigate and create a profile, but since the N3 OS I believe is used across lots of DAP's I presume there is already a way to create playlists with exact paths?
The file listing in the M3u/M3U8 files have to be relative to the location of the playlist. So, in the case of your above example:
SD Card > Library > Artist first Alphabet > Artist > Album > musicfile.mp3
SD Card > Playlist > Playlist folder 1 > Playlist folder 2 > thisplaylist.m3u

The first listing in the M3U should be:
..\..\..\..\Library\A\Abba\Gold\DancingQueen.mp3

where the .. means to go up a directory. Since your playlist file is 4 directories down (Playlist=1, Playlist folder 1=2, Playlist Folder 2=3, playlist folder=4), you would need to go up 4 to return to the root of the card. Then, you would go back down into the listing of the file structure until you reach the file.

I don't use mac products, so I have no idea about dapper, but in MediaMonkey for Windows you can set "Relative Paths" and declare where you want the M3u/M3U8 saved. It'll figure out the required relatives ("..\") needed to work.

Oh, and sometimes, you'll need to set the separator to use Unix format ("/") instead of the ("\").
 
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May 16, 2017 at 7:34 PM Post #1,843 of 6,262
Hey guys, another question if you don't mind? Anyone know which formats the N3 supports in OTG mode? Will it read MacOS-formatted drives for example? And can I use ExFAT if Mac isn't supported? (Would hate to be limited to FAT32 and its puny file size limitations). Thx!
I use nothing but exFAT on all my cards, even for firmware updates...if you load any DSD files, you'll want to use exFAT especially if you have full ISOs loaded.
 

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