Cayin N3 Hi-Res DAP with AKM4490 DAC, apt-X Bluetooth, and Line, USB & Coax Out for $150
Aug 13, 2017 at 10:22 PM Post #3,496 of 6,262
Now my eq has stopped working. Doesn't make any difference when I move bands or choose presets, I'm getting quite bored of this DAP now. The filters seem to make no difference either, which I blamed on my hearing at first but given that the eq has stopped working completely, who knows?

Actually, the eq works on some songs and not others....
 
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Aug 13, 2017 at 11:28 PM Post #3,497 of 6,262
Now my eq has stopped working. Doesn't make any difference when I move bands or choose presets, I'm getting quite bored of this DAP now. The filters seem to make no difference either, which I blamed on my hearing at first but given that the eq has stopped working completely, who knows?

Actually, the eq works on some songs and not others....

EQ only work with 48kHz or below music pieces, this is the limitation of DSP power in N3.
 
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Aug 14, 2017 at 1:28 AM Post #3,499 of 6,262
I've noticed that the filters don't change while a track is playing. I've had to pause, change, and restart the track to get the change to take effect. The thing to watch for is little things like cymbal reverberation at the tail end, snare drum hit decay, and high guitar strings. With the sharp filters, the decays sound more compressed and "ding" like. With the slower filters, the decays are longer, smoother, and more accurate.

With keyboards, the slower filters sound warbly while the sharp filters are more accurate. However, when an actual acoustic piano is used, the sharp filters make the resonance of the strings disappear and sound more keyboard like.

I've noticed that some headphones (and/or amps) smooth out the differences too much and produce a more "consumer" (fake) sound to make the music more mainstream. I notice the minor differences like crazy with the UERR or JH13s. But with the JH5s and MDR-7506, I don't hear the same differences as noticably.
Thanks for that - and interesting that you mentioned headphones because I still feel that's what makes the biggest difference to the sound signature.

That said, I was actually wondering how much, on balance, the N3 affects the signature compared to my headphones; for example, I absolutely love the sound of my P7 wired cans, but there's no doubt they sound different when I'm on the N3 compared to a dac/amp like the E5 or direct to my phone.

On the N3 the soundstage seems more intimate, even though clarity and separation are still there, but on the Soundblaster E5 (via Audirvana+) the soundstage is instantly wider and the separation and vocal clarity is more apparent (even though the N3 uses a more advanced DAC chip, so I assume it's the E5's more powerful amp making the difference here).

It would be good to know which parts of the chain have more effect on specific qualities of sound, otherwise it's a blind mix-and-match guessing game...
 
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Aug 14, 2017 at 2:39 AM Post #3,500 of 6,262
The headphones are the part of the chain with the most distortion and the most individual tuning. The other elements have very low distortion. Therefore it is logical to believe you aren't imagining things when you plug different sets of earphones and headphones into the N3. The filters have a much more subtle effect. The EQ for tracks of 48K or less will obviously make a big difference in the chain because it boosts or reduces frequencies across the audio spectrum.

With a DAP what I'm looking for is something well made, capable of handling hi res tracks that is responsive, versatile and has the ability to output digitally to sources that have more output power, such as the Chord Mojo. If it doesn't handle streaming then it must not be ridiculously expensive. The N3 achieves this.
 
Aug 14, 2017 at 5:31 AM Post #3,501 of 6,262
Thanks for that - and interesting that you mentioned headphones because I still feel that's what makes the biggest difference to the sound signature.

That said, I was actually wondering how much, on balance, the N3 affects the signature compared to my headphones; for example, I absolutely love the sound of my P7 wired cans, but there's no doubt they sound different when I'm on the N3 compared to a dac/amp like the E5 or direct to my phone.

On the N3 the soundstage seems more intimate, even though clarity and separation are still there, but on the Soundblaster E5 (via Audirvana+) the soundstage is instantly wider and the separation and vocal clarity is more apparent (even though the N3 uses a more advanced DAC chip, so I assume it's the E5's more powerful amp making the difference here).

It would be good to know which parts of the chain have more effect on specific qualities of sound, otherwise it's a blind mix-and-match guessing game...
In theory, the amp *should* be the most consistent and transparent as a good amp should do nothing but increase the power of the signal equally. However, a lot of non-professional amps tint the sound to make it more appealing to the user. The next should be the source, but that varies based on the designer's interpretation of how the digital signal is converted to an analog waveform.

The least transparent would be the headphones/speakers. In a pro studio, the speakers are placed in a acoustically treated room specifically designed to remove echo, reverb, and other environmental effects that would tint the sound. But, even then, the listener's ear "design" changes the tone so that every eardrum doesn't get the perfectly same wave. Headphones are less effected, as they are next to the head, but still are affected by the acoustic chamber that is created and other variables such as amount of earwax, alignment of the driver, tightness of the pad seal, etc. compared against the tuning of the headphone at the factory. Custom IEMs would be the least affected, as a properly designed pair should be designed to be almost the same position every time compared to the tuning at the manufacturer.

If a pure sine wave was sent from a electronically created source (tone generator, not a playback device), it should come out of a good amp perfectly identical; it should be in sync with phase and frequency. The only thing that should change is the amplitude ("volume") of the wave. With speakers, that wave should come out of the drivers and across the room without any distortion (reverb against the room walls/ceiling), phase distortion (drivers not translating the signal to a physical wave correctly), or harmonics (reflection from the back wall or objects around the listener). Headphone should respond the same, but in a smaller environment - the sealing against the head can create it's own "room" that affects the sound and reflections can come off the head itself echoing back to the headphone driver. Custom IEMs will do the same, albeit in the mm range since the output is close to the eardrum and can only echo off the ear canal walls.

The N3's translation of the digital file is naturally tinted or biased by the designer - both of the amplifier circuit design by Cayin and the AKM DAC chip designer at Asashi Kasei. The filters are their way of tinting the analog wave creation from the digital signal, kinda like the way a violinist or horn player would play a score differently to add their touch to a composition.

Done properly, an EQ should never be used to "improve" the sound of playback. It should be used to neutralize the listening environment. For example, in a room where bass is reverbing ("blooming"), the EQ could be used to lower the harmonic frequency of the room. If a room was overly padded or filled with soft furniture, the EQ could increase high frequencies to prevent the highs from being absorbed. Then, the source would be played without EQ, transparently, to the amp, which shouldn't change any frequency balance.

Most listeners (and reviewers) can only guess on what the real audio track *should* sound like. Unless they were there when the piece was recorded, they have no idea what a piece should really sound like. Even then, you are actually listening to the engineer's (recording and mastering) interpretation of what THEY hear. When somebody says that "the soundstage is wide with xxx", I always take it with a grain of salt since the piece may have been recorded and mixed narrower (or maybe even wider) than they are hearing. Some bands record in massive rooms for the natural reverb of the room. Others like tiny dampened rooms to get a more personal feel. The only way to really know how the playback chain affects a given signal is to have stood in the room with the musicians, been the engineer tracking the mix, mastering it to be what one thinks is as accurate a repro as possible to produce a known "standard" file. Only then can the file be played back on a DAP to determine exactly how it changes when different pieces of the chain are altered.

Most engineers will then take that "perfect" mix and play it on the crappiest audio sources possible - car stereos, phones, and bluetooth speakers - to see how their mix is affected. A lot of times, what sounds perfect in the studio has ended up as a massive tinny mix on these devices because of the lack of bass (not the devices fault, but rather the speakers size or displacement). It's then time to make a "radio mix" which modifies the balance to sound better at the expense of accuracy or fidelity. (Think theatrical releases vs director's cuts in the motion picture industry). I had to a lot of cuts like that because the original recording was waay to detailed and needed toning down for normal play.

So yes, an end user can play all day with their settings to make what sounds most "exciting" to them, but to compare apples-to-apples, one would need to truly create their own track from scratch and use it as the source for true comparison to a non-moving target.
 
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Aug 14, 2017 at 7:02 AM Post #3,502 of 6,262
I'm also interested in portable amp recommendations. I've tried two of my full size cans (Fidelio X2 / Focal Elear) on the N3 using mid and high gain and neither sounded particularly good.
My desktop amp/dac is the iFi iDAC2 and it's a night and day difference. Asking an N3 to drive the Elear was probably unrealistic but I was hoping it could handle the X2.

I've got a pair of Shure 530 earphones which are on their last legs and they sound great on the N3 so it's fairly evident that the cans are simply underdriven.
My X2 has always sounded so-so straight from daps, but blossoms with the addition of most basic amps.
 
Aug 14, 2017 at 7:20 AM Post #3,503 of 6,262
In theory, the amp *should* be the most consistent and transparent as a good amp should do nothing but increase the power of the signal equally. However, a lot of non-professional amps tint the sound to make it more appealing to the user. The next should be the source, but that varies based on the designer's interpretation of how the digital signal is converted to an analog waveform.
You're right, I just tried A/B-ing the N3 on its own and the N3 line-out via the E5 and at the same (or similar) volume the sound signature is almost identical. Then, switching to the N3 vs the E5 (via Audirvana, so using its own Cirrus DAC) there's definitely a change in the signature - with the E5 vocals are slightly more detailed (or maybe pitched a little higher), bass goes ever so slightly deeper and hits harder, but there's also a bit more noise in the background.

Wish there were more people like you that could articulate so eloquently the science behind what really is, first and foremost, a science. As enthusiasts we bring all sorts of color and bias and subjective opinions to what, at a base level, can and should be described in actual, factual terms. Of course the art and color and personal taste is what makes this hobby so much fun, and indeed sound (and more specifically music) means something different to each one of us, be it in the melody, or frequency, or words, or artist, or thousands of more variables we consciously and subconsciously 'feel' when we listen.

But we have to start with the facts, and the facts are that the physics of sound (and the electronics we use to reproduce it) follow very definite rules that can't be 'colored' by opinion. Fact is fact, and too often we mistake opinions and what individuals 'hear' for the science behind the art, when the opposite is true.

Thank you!

PS. Your (original, untruncated) answer above should be a 'sticky'!
 
Aug 14, 2017 at 8:16 AM Post #3,504 of 6,262
Update on digital filter preferences. I had mostly paid attention to how natural and/or detailed the sound is, so "Slow" seemed not very natural nor very detailed and I forgot about it after a few tries. But, luckily, I gave it one more try with "The White Stripes - Ball And Bisquit" and it became my favorite universal filter since then. It is a balance between natural and detailed sound, but, what's more important, it gives a right tempo for my taste. Try the song above with "Slow" filter, maybe it's me or my headphone, but it was a huge turn on. What's interesting, while I noticed more detailed or natural sound with other filters, there was much less enjoyment. For some subtle slow(ish) music, like piano, it may lack feeling, but it's bearable and I was really happy to trade some clarity and feeling for a big improvement in punch and energy. @docholliday You may find this interesting.

@gLer Correct me if I am wrong, but I find nothing unexpected, because line-out sound is uneffected by Cayin's DAC.
 
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Aug 14, 2017 at 10:07 AM Post #3,505 of 6,262
Update on digital filter preferences. I had mostly paid attention to how natural and/or detailed the sound is, so "Slow" seemed not very natural nor very detailed and I forgot about it after a few tries. But, luckily, I gave it one more try with "The White Stripes - Ball And Bisquit" and it became my favorite universal filter since then. It is a balance between natural and detailed sound, but, what's more important, it gives a right tempo for my taste. Try the song above with "Slow" filter, maybe it's me or my headphone, but it was a huge turn on. What's interesting, while I noticed more detailed or natural sound with other filters, there was much less enjoyment. For some subtle slow(ish) music, like piano, it may lack feeling, but it's bearable and I was really happy to trade some clarity and feeling for a big improvement in punch and energy. @docholliday You may find this interesting.

@gLer Correct me if I am wrong, but I find nothing unexpected, because line-out sound is uneffected by Cayin's DAC.

Line-out sound is an analog signal, which has been converted by the Cayin's AK4490 DAC - it's only when you use the N3 as a digital transport, for an external DAC, that the internal DAC isn't being used.
 
Aug 14, 2017 at 10:25 AM Post #3,506 of 6,262
You're right, I just tried A/B-ing the N3 on its own and the N3 line-out via the E5 and at the same (or similar) volume the sound signature is almost identical. Then, switching to the N3 vs the E5 (via Audirvana, so using its own Cirrus DAC) there's definitely a change in the signature - with the E5 vocals are slightly more detailed (or maybe pitched a little higher), bass goes ever so slightly deeper and hits harder, but there's also a bit more noise in the background.

Wish there were more people like you that could articulate so eloquently the science behind what really is, first and foremost, a science. As enthusiasts we bring all sorts of color and bias and subjective opinions to what, at a base level, can and should be described in actual, factual terms. Of course the art and color and personal taste is what makes this hobby so much fun, and indeed sound (and more specifically music) means something different to each one of us, be it in the melody, or frequency, or words, or artist, or thousands of more variables we consciously and subconsciously 'feel' when we listen.

But we have to start with the facts, and the facts are that the physics of sound (and the electronics we use to reproduce it) follow very definite rules that can't be 'colored' by opinion. Fact is fact, and too often we mistake opinions and what individuals 'hear' for the science behind the art, when the opposite is true.

Thank you!

PS. Your (original, untruncated) answer above should be a 'sticky'!


Remember that if you compare N3 alone vs N3 line out + E5.... in both cases you are using the N3 amp section. so, the E5 is actually working as a second amp section, then the results should be not so much different. Perhaps the best way to make this an effective analisis, should be in the second test put the volume of the N3 to the minimum and get the same level of volume almost exclusively with the E5.... no?
 
Aug 14, 2017 at 10:44 AM Post #3,507 of 6,262
Remember that if you compare N3 alone vs N3 line out + E5.... in both cases you are using the N3 amp section. so, the E5 is actually working as a second amp section, then the results should be not so much different. Perhaps the best way to make this an effective analisis, should be in the second test put the volume of the N3 to the minimum and get the same level of volume almost exclusively with the E5.... no?
Except you can't put the N3 volume to minimum in line-out mode, it's always set to MAX. Not sure if switching from line out mode to headphone mode would make a difference - or if it's even technically ideal. I know there's a difference between the line out and headphone out modes on the N3 (with the headphone out meant to be cleaner, and also allowing you to use variable volume) so I'm not sure which mode would be better when connecting to an external amp. Maybe someone with more technical knowledge can advise?
 
Aug 14, 2017 at 10:47 AM Post #3,508 of 6,262
Line-out sound is an analog signal, which has been converted by the Cayin's AK4490 DAC - it's only when you use the N3 as a digital transport, for an external DAC, that the internal DAC isn't being used.
As a matter of interest, is there any advantage to leaving the N3 in headphone mode when using line out to an amp (especially a powerful amp)? @Andykong mentioned elsewhere that the line out implementation on the N3 is secondary in quality to the headphone out (whatever that means), so if you're outputting from the DAC to an external amp does it not make more sense to use headphone out and retain variable volume control and a cleaner output path?
 
Aug 14, 2017 at 10:53 AM Post #3,510 of 6,262
Except you can't put the N3 volume to minimum in line-out mode, it's always set to MAX. Not sure if switching from line out mode to headphone mode would make a difference - or if it's even technically ideal. I know there's a difference between the line out and headphone out modes on the N3 (with the headphone out meant to be cleaner, and also allowing you to use variable volume) so I'm not sure which mode would be better when connecting to an external amp. Maybe someone with more technical knowledge can advise?

Another way to make this interesting test is, just to use another device with the same dac, like the xduoo xd-05, in that case the test could be N3 alone vs xd-05+E5... then the difference should be caused by the different amps, as the dac section remains the same.... just saying, not an expert at all, may someone can help with this.
 

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