[fish1050]

The reason of track orders out of sequence when browsing through albums with multiple discs is because N3 does not support discnumber as a sorting/indexing metadata item..

This is a compromise we make after lengthy discussion. The objective is to maintain a smooth operation across all routine operation, folder operation is normally straight forward, but the Music Library operation is a lot more demanding, that’s why we need to be very careful in handling read/write frequency, Library size (in terms of number of entries) and index complexity of Music Library.

For this reason, we have to set a reasonable upper limit to every feature. For example, N3 can only handle playlist up to 1000 titles, and we have also encountered the Library size issue earlier on. To response to user request in this forum, Cayin has increased file limit of Music Library from 12,000 titles to 20,000 titles (firmware v2.0), but we have explained that:



https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cay...oax-out-for-150.833932/page-146#post-13519872

On the other hand, adding new index field will definitely allow more flexibility to user control, but the sorting and scanning task will drain more processing power and eat up more internal memory. The situation is actually very similar to the file limit issue. If supporting discnumber in Music Library is an absolutely necessary feature, we can do it, just like what we did to the Music Library limit. Right now we have deployed most of our processing power to digital audio processing, that’s why N3 offers amazing digital audio capability (32/384, DSD256, SACD-ISO etc) at an entry level price, so if we trim down the digital audio processing slightly, maybe we can squeeze out more processing power to handle the extra index field like discnumber. We make the compromise decision during product development, but we’ll consider suggestions form user community seriously.

Before we plunge into the hot debate of to be or not to be, let me offer some quick solution.

When you extract your CD into FLAC (or whatever format that support metadata), you can renumber the tracks by embedding the disc number into the track number. For example, when you handle a single disc album, the track number should be 01, 02, 03, …. 10, 11, 12 etc. When you are dealing with a two-disc album, Disc 1 tracks should be numbered as 101, 102, 103, …110, 111, 112 etc, and disc 2 tracks should be numbered as 201, 202, 203, …210, 211, 212 etc. This will be a bit tedious if we need to renumber our complete music library again, but if you were to do this while you extract your FLAC, this should be straight forward. @fourrobert13 has proposed similar solution earlier on, and I have been doing this since I use my first DAP (yes, wrong track sorting in album view), works very well so far.

If you have a big Music Library and don’t want to fiddler with the track number, I can understand that. N3 can handle Album name and track number correct in the ID3 metadata, so the quickest way to get out of the sorting error is to edit the album name directly to include Disc01 and Disc02. The system will treat the disc1 and disc2 as two separate albums in one folder, the track numbers will not meze up again.

I hope these two solutions will resolve the problem “temporary”. As @fourrobert13 has stated that he has yet to find a DAP that does it correctly. I assume other DAP manufacturers have faced similar processing bottleneck like Cayin.

I have to say I think supporting amazing digital audio capability (32/384, DSD256, SACD-ISO etc) on $150.00 DAP is a overkill. I have these capabilities on a full blown home system. But on a low powered portable DAP it is to much in my book especially with a maximum storage of 256 GB. I would be interested in how many people are actually listening to DSD 256 and SACD-ISO files with this DAP? I could see supporting these formats on a higher end model with dual microsd card slots.

I am still interested in this DAP but would be moreso if the limited resources available on the DAP were utilized more practically to improve usabilit.

 

[Mr Trev]

Maybe folks could campaign Cayin to release 2 firmwares. Have one dedicated to max SQ performance for all supported formats. Have the other offer the best SQ up to 24/96, and use the remaining processing power for improving the library and usability
Just a thought anyways…

 

[fish1050]

I guess

Maybe folks could campaign Cayin to release 2 firmwares. Have one dedicated to max SQ performance for all supported formats. Have the other offer the best SQ up to 24/96, and use the remaining processing power for improving the library and usability
Just a thought anyways…

Technically they already have a firmware that supports the maximum number of formats with the current firmware. So really they would only have to release a new firmware to do a limit of 24/96 and improve library functionality and usability. If you are happy with what the N3 offers then stick with the current firmware and only upgrade to the new firmware if you want the feature changes it provides.

I guess the other question I have is if you reduce the supported formats and increase library and usability would you also be able to improve battery life?

 

[Mr Trev]

True, the existing fw would fill the role for "Maximum Sound Edition™". Maybe it could be tweaked even further by dumping the library entirely and using folder browsing exclusively, no cover art, etc.

As far improving battery life, I think ditching DSD capability could help, but losing DSP like EQ would make a bigger difference

Really though, it is pretty ridiculous to expect Cayin would have the resources to create and maintain 2 different fw - but we can all dream

 

[elNan]

Suddenly, my N3 is stuck in a infinite upgrade loop. When I turn it on the "Updater V 1.1" starts and the device begins upgrading. Once completed, the device reboots just to repeat all the upgrade process again. I tried removing the microSD card but the systems asks for the card again. I managed to turn the device off (with a strange combination of buttons), but again, once I turn it on the N3 begins upgrading. Has anyone experienced a behavior like this one? @CayinSupport, @Andykong, can you help me?

 

[fourrobert13]

I have to say I think supporting amazing digital audio capability (32/384, DSD256, SACD-ISO etc) on $150.00 DAP is a overkill. I have these capabilities on a full blown home system. But on a low powered portable DAP it is to much in my book especially with a maximum storage of 256 GB. I would be interested in how many people are actually listening to DSD 256 and SACD-ISO files with this DAP? I could see supporting these formats on a higher end model with dual microsd card slots.

I am still interested in this DAP but would be moreso if the limited resources available on the DAP were utilized more practically to improve usabilit.

Technically, storage is a non-issue with this DAP since it allows OTG storage from flash drives. I have successfully used a 512 gig sd card in a card reader along with the 200 gig micro card I have in the DAP. Using OTG storage shaves about 2.5 to 3 hours off of the 12+ hours the DAP is capable of, but still impressive none the less. I used this method with my FiiO X3II until FiiO removed the feature in later fw. It was OTG storage that drew me to this DAP and is a really important to me and it was to others that owned the X3II. All the extras (outside of Hiby Link) I haven't used yet due to no DAC, or even using the N3 as a DAC. I used to say that the X3II was the best bang for your buck, but the N3 has taken that spot with easy. By far my favorite DAP I own. I can see myself selling my two remaining FiiOs and getting another N3. It does everything I need and then some.

 

[riffrafff]

Suddenly, my N3 is stuck in a infinite upgrade loop. When I turn it on the "Updater V 1.1" starts and the device begins upgrading. Once completed, the device reboots just to repeat all the upgrade process again. I tried removing the microSD card but the systems asks for the card again. I managed to turn the device off (with a strange combination of buttons), but again, once I turn it on the N3 begins upgrading. Has anyone experienced a behavior like this one? @CayinSupport, @Andykong, can you help me?

Have you tried the reset button?

 

[Andykong]

I have to say I think supporting amazing digital audio capability (32/384, DSD256, SACD-ISO etc) on $150.00 DAP is a overkill. I have these capabilities on a full blown home system. But on a low powered portable DAP it is to much in my book especially with a maximum storage of 256 GB. I would be interested in how many people are actually listening to DSD 256 and SACD-ISO files with this DAP? I could see supporting these formats on a higher end model with dual microsd card slots.

I am still interested in this DAP but would be moreso if the limited resources available on the DAP were utilized more practically to improve usabilit.

The DSD256 is probably more marketing-driven requirements, but the SACD-ISO is a very popular feature in Asian market like Japan and Hong Kong. The process to extract DSD file out of a SACD is complicated and can be generally described in two phase. The first part is to extract an SACD-ISO from the SACD disk, and the second part is to break down the SACD-ISO into individual DSD files (DSF of DFF format). The ability to handle SACD-ISO will allow users to skip the second step and that would speed up the process tremendously.

There are two limitation here, MCU processing power and internal storage for system operation.
Someone has proposed a limited Hi-Res option. I guess If we can limit the Hi-Res support to 24/96, DSD64, and forget about DoP, then indeed the N3 hardware resource will be fairly adequate. But we have to deal with two questions if we go to this route:

1. My mobile phone can do 32/384 and DSD256, why should I get a DAP that can only do 24/96?
2. XXX DAP can do 32/384 and DSD256, why should I get N3 that can only do 24/96?

The problem is, entry level market cares about numbers and specification more then the mid-tier market, Cayin need to stay competitive in the market so we have to look at the majority. If there is enough users/customers prefer usability over Hi-Res Audio, then we are happy to swing that way.

However we are happy to find out what features/function you (or any other N3 users) have in mind when you refer to enhanced usability. Maybe we can do it, or maybe we have to reserve that to our next model, we can't be sure until we have a prioritized list.

Maybe folks could campaign Cayin to release 2 firmwares. Have one dedicated to max SQ performance for all supported formats. Have the other offer the best SQ up to 24/96, and use the remaining processing power for improving the library and usability
Just a thought anyways…

Sorry, this is not an option, Once we do it for N3, there is no reason why we can't do that to every Cayin DAP, and we simply don't have the resource to support TWO firmware per product.

 

[Andykong]

Technically, storage is a non-issue with this DAP since it allows OTG storage from flash drives. I have successfully used a 512 gig sd card in a card reader along with the 200 gig micro card I have in the DAP. Using OTG storage shaves about 2.5 to 3 hours off of the 12+ hours the DAP is capable of, but still impressive none the less. I used this method with my FiiO X3II until FiiO removed the feature in later fw. It was OTG storage that drew me to this DAP and is a really important to me and it was to others that owned the X3II. All the extras (outside of Hiby Link) I haven't used yet due to no DAC, or even using the N3 as a DAC. I used to say that the X3II was the best bang for your buck, but the N3 has taken that spot with easy. By far my favorite DAP I own. I can see myself selling my two remaining FiiOs and getting another N3. It does everything I need and then some.

The N3 has covered a large variety of user groups. We have users used it almost exclusively as an external USB soundcard for their computer, and we have another group of uses will use it as a digital transport for portable DAC such as Chrod Mojo, the later group is so large that we need to develop a short TypeC to 3.5mm coaxial cable for them.

I wouldn't say storage is a non-issue with N3, theoretically we can only handle upto 2TB through OTG storage. Someone has tried to connect a 4TB 3.5" HDD (with external power supply) to N3 and that obviously is not going to work very well.

 

[fish1050]

The DSD256 is probably more marketing-driven requirements, but the SACD-ISO is a very popular feature in Asian market like Japan and Hong Kong. The process to extract DSD file out of a SACD is complicated and can be generally described in two phase. The first part is to extract an SACD-ISO from the SACD disk, and the second part is to break down the SACD-ISO into individual DSD files (DSF of DFF format). The ability to handle SACD-ISO will allow users to skip the second step and that would speed up the process tremendously.

There are two limitation here, MCU processing power and internal storage for system operation.
Someone has proposed a limited Hi-Res option. I guess If we can limit the Hi-Res support to 24/96, DSD64, and forget about DoP, then indeed the N3 hardware resource will be fairly adequate. But we have to deal with two questions if we go to this route:

1. My mobile phone can do 32/384 and DSD256, why should I get a DAP that can only do 24/96?
2. XXX DAP can do 32/384 and DSD256, why should I get N3 that can only do 24/96?

The problem is, entry level market cares about numbers and specification more then the mid-tier market, Cayin need to stay competitive in the market so we have to look at the majority. If there is enough users/customers prefer usability over Hi-Res Audio, then we are happy to swing that way.



Sorry, this is not an option, Once we do it for N3, there is no reason why we can't do that to every Cayin DAP, and we simply don't have the resource to support TWO firmware per product.

Oh I understand perfectly that you can't support two different fw paths on the same DAP. I was simply responding to your proposition about reducing some advanced features to offer better support for convenience features.

To answer your questions. 1. How much does your phone cost that offers 32/384 and DSD256 vs the N3 at $150.00 and how does the hardware compare between the phone and the N3? I personally don't know any one of my friends all of whom are into portable audio with some pretty high end gear that listen to DSD256 or 32/384 on their DAP's. The file sizes are huge greatly limiting how many songs you can store and still be portable. OTG is an option for added storage but then you aren't really all that portable anymore and I would do this on my home system and not my portable.

2. I am not saying don't offer these features on a DAP just offer them on a higher end DAP with better hardware and with either onboard storage or dual microsd cards. You ask why wouldn't people want 32/384 and DSD256 on a $150.00 DAP. I would ask how many people actually listen to these formats on a $150.00 DAP. As good as the N3 sounds it is still a portable audio device that will be used in less then ideal listening environments and I don't think you can really appreciate audio quality at this level on a portable audio device. At least not on a $150.00 DAP with limited hardware

 

[Andykong]

Our team is travelling from Zhuhai to Hong Kong right now, and I'll be joining them at Hong Kong later today, we'll setup our booth in Hong Kong High End Audio Visual Show today, and we'll have a busy weekend till Sunday night. The AV show in Hong Kong is very crowded and it is a marathon event, the opening hours extended all the way till 8pm every night, a lot more demanding then shows in Europe of North America, so we probably will disappear for a few days.

https://www.facebook.com/events/322857784840623/

We'll have new product debut at this show, please check out the product list for more detail.

 

[gLer]

We'll have new product debut at this show, please check out the product list for more detail.

Ooh, where can we get details on the new N5ii?

 

[gLer]

However we are happy to find out what features/function you (or any other N3 users) have in mind when you refer to enhanced usability.

All I ever wanted was the ability to edit the resource files and compile custom firmware without having to learn an arcane version of Linux. It won't use up any system resources, won't sacrifice any music features, won't limit any marketing appeal, and won't cost Cayin any development time. (Is there a frustrated emoji?)

 

[Andykong]

Oh I understand perfectly that you can't support two different fw paths on the same DAP. I was simply responding to your proposition about reducing some advanced features to offer better support for convenience features.

To answer your questions. 1. How much does your phone cost that offers 32/384 and DSD256 vs the N3 at $150.00 and how does the hardware compare between the phone and the N3? I personally don't know any one of my friends all of whom are into portable audio with some pretty high end gear that listen to DSD256 or 32/384 on their DAP's. The file sizes are huge greatly limiting how many songs you can store and still be portable. OTG is an option for added storage but then you aren't really all that portable anymore and I would do this on my home system and not my portable.

2. I am not saying don't offer these features on a DAP just offer them on a higher end DAP with better hardware and with either onboard storage or dual microsd cards. You ask why wouldn't people want 32/384 and DSD256 on a $150.00 DAP. I would ask how many people actually listen to these formats on a $150.00 DAP. As good as the N3 sounds it is still a portable audio device that will be used in less then ideal listening environments and I don't think you can really appreciate audio quality at this level on a portable audio device. At least not on a $150.00 DAP with limited hardware

Just a quick response while I am on the road. If you take a look at DAP below US$200, you'll find several N3 competitors offer similar digital audio capability, and even sub-$100 DAP can offer 24/192 and DSD128 already.

The off contract price of a V20 at $800 might sound a lot, but there are other options to get then at much lower cost. Beside there are 2016 models such as HTC 10 and LG V10 that are also very capable in terms of digital audio support and these are available at around 50% of a V20. Last but not least, mobile phone are consider necessary accessories today and DAPs aren't, so consumers are more concern on the additional cost to upgrade from their current mobile phone expenditure to a HiFi phone vs the cost to buy a DAP.

 

[Andykong]

Ooh, where can we get details on the new N5ii?

Honestly, I want that too.