[Makiah S]

My experience has taught me that headphones by far make the biggest difference in sound quality. With today's hardware there is very little difference in true sound quality between DAP's even hundreds of dollars apart. After all they are using alot of the same parts across multiple DAP's at multiple price points. Give me a DAP like the N3 and my favorite B&W P5S2's over a more expensive DAP and cheaper quality headphones any day.
Give me a pair of headphones that has the sound signature I like and they will make any reasonably priced DAP sound good. Give me a pair of headphones with a sound signature I don't like and no DAP at any price will sound good.

Thanks for your review and insights, very interesting indeed. The one point I'll take you up on is the choice of headphones (and speakers for that matter). I currently have a set of B&W headphones (P5 Series 2 and P7), both of which are fairly well-regarded (the P7 more than the P5 obviously) and which cost several times more than the N3. I also have a pair of $10 Rock Zircon IEMs I just bought, and am quite impressed by what they can do (for the price - better than many $100 IEMs I've heard). I'm also in the market for higher-end headphones (like the Fostex TH-X00 for example) that I believe will take my listening to an even higher level - all with the N3 AND my desktop setup.

So my point here is, why limit the quality I can get from the N3 by limiting my choice of headphones? You're not doing the N3 any favors by pairing it with lower-end headphones, no matter the reason. I've listened to a few of my friends' less impressive headphones with my N3, and in each case it sounds significantly worse than when I have my P7s on. Start with the best headphones you can buy, and match it with a good source (N3 etc.). Just my 0.02

Considering everyone is going to use this or any other DAP with headphones or iem's then offering opinions on headphones is perfectly legitimate in my opinion. Not really talking about justification on your part but my own observations based on my experiences.

The discussion that resulted after my impressions was not one focused around sharing your opinion of your B&W P7/P5 with the N3, but rather a progression of the idea that my impressions of the N3 are limited by my using cheaper quality headphones, that idea or thought isn't needed here or any where. My cheap little HD 668B doesn't change how the N3 sounds, when I moved from my HD668B to my ES 10

Spoiler: Cost Breakdown of a Modded Headphone VS Stock

The ES 10 in terms of cost probably runs some where around $330 stock, then there's the wood cups on mine, so let's add another $150, and the full driver to 3.5mm re-cable that's another $100, and the... 2 years spent modding it [it measure's really beautifully and sounds the same] let's just chalk in another $100 so right around $680... oh wait I forget the pads were changed to leather, from what ever the stock was... throw in another $20 for a pad swap and were at $700

I really low balled those prices based on the costs I've had modding my Denons, Lawtons Audios level 1 pack is $125, Ear Pads and Internal Modding... wood cups add another $350 and a real price for a hard re-cable is upwards of $125 ish, Pads can be as cheap as $10 to almost $125,My W1000X had ATH L3000 pads were imported for $115 when they were available, Audeze Vegan pads run around $70 but typically a nice leather pad sits around $50, and given that the ES 10 is so small let's assume the Leather Pads are half the price of a full sized pair

So since were on the topic, let's look at the ES 10 Measurements vs a B&W P5 and a P7

Spoiler: FrQ and Distortion Audio Technica ES 10

Spoiler: B&W7

Spoiler: B&W5

So looking at all the data, what do we see? Well the B&W 7 is certainly eclipsed by me ES 10 in therms of clarity, it's quite dark up top and the THD has some nasty spikes in addition to that upward slope, vs the downward slope of the ES 10 I had, Both have a downward slop from the lows, but I've got less distortion in the mid to high range, also note the bass not peaking over the mids, notice the humps at both 80hrz and 1-2k pair that with a brighter top end, and the ES 10 gains the edge in total clarity and imaging, less distortion and a more even frequency response make for a sharper stereo image, Interestingly though the B&W P5 measures amazingly well! It's got BETTER clarity in the bass, but like the P7 has those nasty spikes and upward sloping from the midrange upwards, an honestly that's alright! I'm not putting down or discrediting either of them, From what I can see, I'd imagine the B&W 5 and B&W 7 are amazing in production headphones, something that EVERY one can own and enjoy. I'd love to hear them both, as I imagine they'll give something like the Oppo PM 3 a real run for it's money

Though a modded headphone... is a bit of a unicorn. Only 1 Exists and nothing else sounds like it does... I keep it as a point of reference, for what's possible with a mid range closed back. I own it because it's rather dark but also has amazing clarity, an it's very reflective of what your plugging it into and is a completely different sound signature form the HD 668B, my point is that when I changed from the Superlux HD 668B to the modded ES10... the N3 didn't SUDDENLY become something it wasn't. My impression of the N3 remained the same. It vs my HM601 had better clarity, better micro detail [so little noises... like a page turn during a classical track, or the sound of some one taking a breath in the mic before they sing, or what ever weird noises were captured during a recording] and better macro dynamics [literal upward and downward shifts of an instrument of vocalist in dB] are more clear with the N3, on the other hand the HM601 with both my $50 headphone and what might as well be a $700 headphone, had better timbre, more precise imaging [or placement of sound within the sound stage both in terms of depth and width] and better macro details or transients. No matter what headphone I listen with, the strengths and weakness of the N3 do not change.

A cheap $50 headphones has not held back the N3 in my experience, moving onward what is it about the N3 and B&W 5/7 combo that you like?

I appreciated how the N3 pair'd with my ES10 really brought a few of my quieter jazz tracks to life! Listening with the HM 601 is more technically correct, but it's a little more relaxed. The N3's overall better dynamics and top end clarity really brought some EXCITEMENT to Mile's Davis So What

 

[fish1050]

The discussion that resulted after my impressions was not one focused around sharing your opinion of your B&W P7/P5 with the N3, but rather a progression of the idea that my impressions of the N3 are limited by my using cheaper quality headphones, that idea or thought isn't needed here or any where. My cheap little HD 668B doesn't change how the N3 sounds, when I moved from my HD668B to my ES 10

Spoiler: Cost Breakdown of a Modded Headphone VS Stock

The ES 10 in terms of cost probably runs some where around $330 stock, then there's the wood cups on mine, so let's add another $150, and the full driver to 3.5mm re-cable that's another $100, and the... 2 years spent modding it [it measure's really beautifully and sounds the same] let's just chalk in another $100 so right around $680... oh wait I forget the pads were changed to leather, from what ever the stock was... throw in another $20 for a pad swap and were at $700

I really low balled those prices based on the costs I've had modding my Denons, Lawtons Audios level 1 pack is $125, Ear Pads and Internal Modding... wood cups add another $350 and a real price for a hard re-cable is upwards of $125 ish, Pads can be as cheap as $10 to almost $125,My W1000X had ATH L3000 pads were imported for $115 when they were available, Audeze Vegan pads run around $70 but typically a nice leather pad sits around $50, and given that the ES 10 is so small let's assume the Leather Pads are half the price of a full sized pair

So since were on the topic, let's look at the ES 10 Measurements vs a B&W P5 and a P7

Spoiler: FrQ and Distortion Audio Technica ES 10

Spoiler: B&W7

Spoiler: B&W5

So looking at all the data, what do we see? Well the B&W 7 is certainly eclipsed by me ES 10 in therms of clarity, it's quite dark up top and the THD has some nasty spikes in addition to that upward slope, vs the downward slope of the ES 10 I had, Both have a downward slop from the lows, but I've got less distortion in the mid to high range, also note the bass not peaking over the mids, notice the humps at both 80hrz and 1-2k pair that with a brighter top end, and the ES 10 gains the edge in total clarity and imaging, less distortion and a more even frequency response make for a sharper stereo image, Interestingly though the B&W P5 measures amazingly well! It's got BETTER clarity in the bass, but like the P7 has those nasty spikes and upward sloping from the midrange upwards, an honestly that's alright! I'm not putting down or discrediting either of them, From what I can see, I'd imagine the B&W 5 and B&W 7 are amazing in production headphones, something that EVERY one can own and enjoy. I'd love to hear them both, as I imagine they'll give something like the Oppo PM 3 a real run for it's money

Though a modded headphone... is a bit of a unicorn. Only 1 Exists and nothing else sounds like it does... I keep it as a point of reference, for what's possible with a mid range closed back. I own it because it's rather dark but also has amazing clarity, an it's very reflective of what your plugging it into and is a completely different sound signature form the HD 668B, my point is that when I changed from the Superlux HD 668B to the modded ES10... the N3 didn't SUDDENLY become something it wasn't. My impression of the N3 remained the same. It vs my HM601 had better clarity, better micro detail [so little noises... like a page turn during a classical track, or the sound of some one taking a breath in the mic before they sing, or what ever weird noises were captured during a recording] and better macro dynamics [literal upward and downward shifts of an instrument of vocalist in dB] are more clear with the N3, on the other hand the HM601 with both my $50 headphone and what might as well be a $700 headphone, had better timbre, more precise imaging [or placement of sound within the sound stage both in terms of depth and width] and better macro details or transients. No matter what headphone I listen with, the strengths and weakness of the N3 do not change.

A cheap $50 headphones has not held back the N3 in my experience, moving onward what is it about the N3 and B&W 5/7 combo that you like?

I appreciated how the N3 pair'd with my ES10 really brought a few of my quieter jazz tracks to life! Listening with the HM 601 is more technically correct, but it's a little more relaxed. The N3's overall better dynamics and top end clarity really brought some EXCITEMENT to Mile's Davis So What

The discussion that resulted after my impressions was not one focused around sharing your opinion of your B&W P7/P5 with the N3, but rather a progression of the idea that my impressions of the N3 are limited by my using cheaper quality headphones, that idea or thought isn't needed here or any where. My cheap little HD 668B doesn't change how the N3 sounds, when I moved from my HD668B to my ES 10

Spoiler: Cost Breakdown of a Modded Headphone VS Stock

The ES 10 in terms of cost probably runs some where around $330 stock, then there's the wood cups on mine, so let's add another $150, and the full driver to 3.5mm re-cable that's another $100, and the... 2 years spent modding it [it measure's really beautifully and sounds the same] let's just chalk in another $100 so right around $680... oh wait I forget the pads were changed to leather, from what ever the stock was... throw in another $20 for a pad swap and were at $700

I really low balled those prices based on the costs I've had modding my Denons, Lawtons Audios level 1 pack is $125, Ear Pads and Internal Modding... wood cups add another $350 and a real price for a hard re-cable is upwards of $125 ish, Pads can be as cheap as $10 to almost $125,My W1000X had ATH L3000 pads were imported for $115 when they were available, Audeze Vegan pads run around $70 but typically a nice leather pad sits around $50, and given that the ES 10 is so small let's assume the Leather Pads are half the price of a full sized pair

So since were on the topic, let's look at the ES 10 Measurements vs a B&W P5 and a P7

Spoiler: FrQ and Distortion Audio Technica ES 10

Spoiler: B&W7

Spoiler: B&W5

So looking at all the data, what do we see? Well the B&W 7 is certainly eclipsed by me ES 10 in therms of clarity, it's quite dark up top and the THD has some nasty spikes in addition to that upward slope, vs the downward slope of the ES 10 I had, Both have a downward slop from the lows, but I've got less distortion in the mid to high range, also note the bass not peaking over the mids, notice the humps at both 80hrz and 1-2k pair that with a brighter top end, and the ES 10 gains the edge in total clarity and imaging, less distortion and a more even frequency response make for a sharper stereo image, Interestingly though the B&W P5 measures amazingly well! It's got BETTER clarity in the bass, but like the P7 has those nasty spikes and upward sloping from the midrange upwards, an honestly that's alright! I'm not putting down or discrediting either of them, From what I can see, I'd imagine the B&W 5 and B&W 7 are amazing in production headphones, something that EVERY one can own and enjoy. I'd love to hear them both, as I imagine they'll give something like the Oppo PM 3 a real run for it's money

Though a modded headphone... is a bit of a unicorn. Only 1 Exists and nothing else sounds like it does... I keep it as a point of reference, for what's possible with a mid range closed back. I own it because it's rather dark but also has amazing clarity, an it's very reflective of what your plugging it into and is a completely different sound signature form the HD 668B, my point is that when I changed from the Superlux HD 668B to the modded ES10... the N3 didn't SUDDENLY become something it wasn't. My impression of the N3 remained the same. It vs my HM601 had better clarity, better micro detail [so little noises... like a page turn during a classical track, or the sound of some one taking a breath in the mic before they sing, or what ever weird noises were captured during a recording] and better macro dynamics [literal upward and downward shifts of an instrument of vocalist in dB] are more clear with the N3, on the other hand the HM601 with both my $50 headphone and what might as well be a $700 headphone, had better timbre, more precise imaging [or placement of sound within the sound stage both in terms of depth and width] and better macro details or transients. No matter what headphone I listen with, the strengths and weakness of the N3 do not change.

A cheap $50 headphones has not held back the N3 in my experience, moving onward what is it about the N3 and B&W 5/7 combo that you like?

I appreciated how the N3 pair'd with my ES10 really brought a few of my quieter jazz tracks to life! Listening with the HM 601 is more technically correct, but it's a little more relaxed. The N3's overall better dynamics and top end clarity really brought some EXCITEMENT to Mile's Davis So What

 

[Makiah S]

@fish1050 um you just quoted me twice... there's nothing else written there

 

[fish1050]

Again, not meant as a personal attack on you but a personal opinion based on years of experience selling and using audio gear. As I pointed out my portable setup is not super expensive so I am not attacking your choice of headphones or specifically how much you paid. Merely my experience that spending more of your budget on the headphone portion of a portable setup will typically yield better sound quality than an expensive DAP with lower quality headphones price not with standing. There are certainly much more expensive headphones than my P5S2's but for me the sound quality to price ratio is outstanding not to mention they are incredibly well built. There are literally hundreds of headphones and iem's out there and I personally have not heard yours so why would I comment on their quality and as far as I can tell I didn't. My choice of headphones currently is the P5S2 so that is my headphone of reference for my posts

If you want my personal assessment on the P5's here it is. These are the most detailed sounding headphones I have listened to under $300.00. The sound is very clear, the sound stage is very good for over ear headphones. The bass is nice and tight, and it has a nice sweet sound without ever sounding sibilant or harsh. I have a large head and large ears so it is hard to find comfortable headphones and these are very comfortable for me to wear for long periods. The clear detailed sound of the N3 meshes very well with the sound characteristics of my P5's. Power wise the N3 drives the P5's quite well as they are fairly efficient headphones. I have auditioned the N3 a couple of times now and I like the DAP quite a bit but there are a couple of other DAP's on the horizon that I might wait for before pulling the trigger on my next DAP.

 

[fish1050]

@fish1050 um you just quoted me twice... there's nothing else written there

Yeah sorry about that, having problems with my internet , it froze a couple of times while I was posting my reply.

 

[Makiah S]

If you want my personal assessment on the P5's here it is. These are the most detailed sounding headphones I have listened to under $300.00. The sound is very clear, the sound stage is very good for over ear headphones. The bass is nice and tight, and it has a nice sweet sound without ever sounding sibilant or harsh. I have a large head and large ears so it is hard to find comfortable headphones and these are very comfortable for me to wear for long periods. The clear detailed sound of the N3 meshes very well with the sound characteristics of my P5's. Power wise the N3 drives the P5's quite well as they are fairly efficient headphones. I have auditioned the N3 a couple of times now and I like the DAP quite a bit but there are a couple of other DAP's on the horizon that I might wait for before pulling the trigger on my next DAP.

No your fine, I never felt attacked, best of all after looking over the hard data for the B&W P5 and hearing your impressions I'm certainly interested in having a listen to it! That price is really nice as well, closed backs are a tricky market around the $100 range. I'm using an HD 25-1 ii my self, but it's certainly not perfect. An I wasn't super impressed with the Meze 99 Neo either,

What tracks in particular are you really enjoying?

 

[fish1050]

No your fine, I never felt attacked, best of all after looking over the hard data for the B&W P5 and hearing your impressions I'm certainly interested in having a listen to it! That price is really nice as well, closed backs are a tricky market around the $100 range. I'm using an HD 25-1 ii my self, but it's certainly not perfect. An I wasn't super impressed with the Meze 99 Neo either,

What tracks in particular are you really enjoying?

Glad to hear we are all good!

My musical tastes are quite diverse actually, and another reason I like the P5's as they handle lots of genre's really well. I am in my 50's so I go back to stuff like classic rock from the 60's all the way up to Train, Adele, and Imagine Dragons which is currently my favorite band. I've been known to listen to some blues and country from time to time. I am really digging the Rolling Stones CD Blue & Lonesome, and Eric Clapton's new one I Still Do. The series Roadies got me turned on to the band Lucius and the singer Halsey. Funny but now that I am older I am find my tastes have broadened even more

 

[Makiah S]

Glad to hear we are all good!

My musical tastes are quite diverse actually, and another reason I like the P5's as they handle lots of genre's really well. I am in my 50's so I go back to stuff like classic rock from the 60's all the way up to Train, Adele, and Imagine Dragons which is currently my favorite band. I've been known to listen to some blues and country from time to time. I am really digging the Rolling Stones CD Blue & Lonesome, and Eric Clapton's new one I Still Do. The series Roadies got me turned on to the band Lucius and the singer Halsey. Funny but now that I am older I am find my tastes have broadened even more

I'm not looking forward to aging... I already like a lot if different genres. Today alone I've switched from Miles Davis, to Blue Grass with the Goat Rodeo Sessions to Heavy Metal with Metallica, and now I think I'm going to listen to some Frank Zappa... not to mention I'll wind up playing some DnB today as well.

I'm still goofing around with getting the N3 to pair up with my LG V20 via Blutooth, I'm curious to see if I can get my Napster Streaming routed through the N3s dac/amp. If so that'd be great! Keep my phone in my hand, and my cans in my pocket without any cords running out of my phone, I can't stand having to work around a headphone cable running out of my cell, phone's already difficult enough to handle....

 

[Andykong]

Do the firmware updates bring any difference to the native sound quality of N3?

No, firmware update won't change the sound of our product, unless we are working on something that will involve the audio algorithm or manipulate the power management service.

 

[fish1050]

I'm not looking forward to aging... I already like a lot if different genres. Today alone I've switched from Miles Davis, to Blue Grass with the Goat Rodeo Sessions to Heavy Metal with Metallica, and now I think I'm going to listen to some Frank Zappa... not to mention I'll wind up playing some DnB today as well.

I'm still goofing around with getting the N3 to pair up with my LG V20 via Blutooth, I'm curious to see if I can get my Napster Streaming routed through the N3s dac/amp. If so that'd be great! Keep my phone in my hand, and my cans in my pocket without any cords running out of my phone, I can't stand having to work around a headphone cable running out of my cell, phone's already difficult enough to handle....

Yeah getting old sucks for sure,

Wow I thought I had diverse tastes you are all over the map dude! is it still cool to say dude these days

I went through a bit of a heavy metal phase in junior high but kind of lost my taste for it over time. I rocked a little Frank Zappa in college and living in St Louis for 10 years allowed me to acquire a limited appreciation of country music (but not western, songs about farm equipment is just weird). I tried getting into jazz but that is kind of hit and miss for me. I can't say I have heard much if any blue grass.

Not a big fan of the whole streaming music thing. I am really picky about what I like and prefer to have all the music I like on my DAP. I do stream from my A17 to my Sony receiver when at home and LDAC does sound really good. Now that Sony is putting AptX back on the new A40 I might actually wait until I can check it out before I make my next DAP purchase. Having both AptX and LDAC would be great for flexibility. Though I keep coming back to the N3 so it could be a tough decision in the end. Who knows as fast as Cayin is releasing DAP's there could be something to add to my list.

 

[Makiah S]

No, firmware update won't change the sound of our product, unless we are working on something that will involve the audio algorithm or manipulate the power management service.

But guys so that your aware, Cayin and other manufacturers will often push an update for the firmware out that does improve the quality of the audio, while the hardware in different daps may be different, their firmware is unique to each and does change how that hardware operates, not to mention the quality of everything else.

Yeah getting old sucks for sure,

Wow I thought I had diverse tastes you are all over the map dude! is it still cool to say dude these days

I went through a bit of a heavy metal phase in junior high but kind of lost my taste for it over time. I rocked a little Frank Zappa in college and living in St Louis for 10 years allowed me to acquire a limited appreciation of country music (but not western, songs about farm equipment is just weird). I tried getting into jazz but that is kind of hit and miss for me. I can't say I have heard much if any blue grass.

Not a big fan of the whole streaming music thing. I am really picky about what I like and prefer to have all the music I like on my DAP. I do stream from my A17 to my Sony receiver when at home and LDAC does sound really good. Now that Sony is putting AptX back on the new A40 I might actually wait until I can check it out before I make my next DAP purchase. Having both AptX and LDAC would be great for flexibility. Though I keep coming back to the N3 so it could be a tough decision in the end. Who knows as fast as Cayin is releasing DAP's there could be something to add to my list.

Oh boy, yea songs about farm equipment... I like that description of country music! Although... I once knew a girl... she really did think my tractor was sexy! I also prefer local playback to streaming as well, but streaming is helpful for when I'm driving. The output on both of my DAPs is too much for my Car's Stero. I literally have no volume control, and I prefer not to double amp, so CD's and Napster streaming are worth while. That and some streaming is nice when the wife and I are cleaning around the house. I've only got Blutooth speakers atm

Yea... musical diversity was a gift from my child hood. My actual father was a musician alongside his brother, they enjoyed a lot of classic rock. Though as I kid there was a Record shop I would hang out in while my mother finished her shift at work, so I'd get to listen to a lot of different stuff with the owner of said shop. I only remember Jazz, but knowing him he introduced me to a few other genres. An my grandfather like'd bluegrass... so go figure

An mhm, I saw Sony's launch of the LDAC as a dongle for one of their IEMs it appears to have MMC connectors and will source/amp anything that accepts an MMC connection, which is really exciting

 

[Slater]

I went through a bit of a heavy metal phase in junior high but kind of lost my taste for it over time. I rocked a little Frank Zappa in college and living in St Louis for 10 years allowed me to acquire a limited appreciation of country music (but not western, songs about farm equipment is just weird). I tried getting into jazz but that is kind of hit and miss for me. I can't say I have heard much if any blue grass.

"What kind of music do you usually have here?"
"Oh we got both kinds here. We got Country and Western."

 

[groucho69]

Back in the days when we went to a store to by music (yes CDs and even vinyl) I used to get some strange looks when I went to check out and pay. One day a cashier yelled, hey Marty, we got a freak." Then he went on to say that it was a compliment to my wide range of purchases, Iggy Pop, Robert Johnson, Kraftwerk, Coltrane, John Prine, Bowie, Pink Floyd (4th copy of Dark Side), Tragically Hip, Clash, Teenage Head, Louis Armstrong, as much as I can remember. It was a 3 for $10 sale. I'll never forget that moment and the pride I felt.

 

[Will_i_ams]

Evening all. Long time lurker of the forum but brand new member. Signed up as after doing a lot of reading, I'm still unclear on something.

With regard to the HiBy Link app for android, specifically the ability to create playlists, will these playlists remain permanently on the N3 for use independently of the phone? The ability to create and edit playlists is very important to me but i don't feel confident in my ability to write the correct pathways and change file type etc. All my current playlists are locked away in itunes, I'm more than willing to step away from apple but i really do need my playlists haha!

 

[Andykong]

Evening all. Long time lurker of the forum but brand new member. Signed up as after doing a lot of reading, I'm still unclear on something.

With regard to the HiBy Link app for android, specifically the ability to create playlists, will these playlists remain permanently on the N3 for use independently of the phone? The ability to create and edit playlists is very important to me but i don't feel confident in my ability to write the correct pathways and change file type etc. All my current playlists are locked away in itunes, I'm more than willing to step away from apple but i really do need my playlists haha!

Playlists created on the smartphone while HiByLink is on are stored on the N3, so you can use the playlist independently of the phone after you created the playlist.

I'll skip your PM as you are asking the same question. The N3 community on HeadFi is extremely friendly and helpful, you can fire your questions here, I might not be able to respond to PM promptly but a lot of N3 experts are willing to help anytime.