[Whitigir]

a more delicate implementation will add a line driver or a buffer to make sure the impedance and output level can reach the de facto level (2V single-ended, 4V or 4.4V balanced). ​

Thanks Andy, and that is why the MAX line out sound so good with the C9.

I meant I test line out from all DAPs, but somehow the MAX really stands out, and it depends on the Amplifier, the better the Amp, the better it stands out.
Also, thanks for the confirmation that the C9 doesn’t do anything special in Pre Mode. It explains why the soundstage got deformed and imaging got confused.....double amplifications (LOL)!!! No wonder why the theory is good, but the performances were not....then it turned out this has no additional circuitry!
Anyways, that is why I always trust my ears first
Here is the Max 4.4 line out voltage 4.4!!!

 

[Andykong]

Thanks Andy, and that is why the MAX line out sound so good with the C9.

I meant I test line out from all DAPs, but somehow the MAX really stands out, and it depends on the Amplifier, the better the Amp, the better it stands out.
Also, thanks for the confirmation that the C9 doesn’t do anything special in Pre Mode. It explains why the soundstage got deformed and imaging got confused.....double amplifications (LOL)!!! No wonder why the theory is good, but the performances were not....then it turned out this has no additional circuitry!
Anyways, that is why I always trust my ears first
Here is the Max 4.4 line out voltage 4.4!!!

I try to summarized the scenarios as follows:

1. Line output from DAP or desktop DAC: use LINE input mode of C9, this is the default setting to use C9;
2. Pre-amp output from DAP, DAC and Pre-amplifier: use PRE-amp input mode of C9; this is an alternative setting to use C9;
3. Phone output if your DAP don't have line out option: use PRE-amp input mode of C9. It might or might not work, depends on the level of current gain, but worth trying because you don't have other options;
4. Pseudo Line out or Line out mode: try both line out mode to C9 LINE input and phone out to C9 PRE-amp input;
5. Variable Line Out: use LINE input mode of C9 with digital volume set to maximum or maintain at a higher level.
6. Pseudo Pre-amp Output or Pre-amp mode: similar to (4), try both line out to C9 LINE input and Pre-amp mode to C9 PRE-amp input, theoretically, LINE out option is the default C9 setting and it should be superior

It is important to understand the definition of Line output and Pre-amp output correctly. There are DAP that offers Line Out "mode" but the signal will go through the headphone amplifier circuit. Both (1) and (2) are the official design application of Cayin C9, (3) to (6) are expanded scenario, it is not surprised that these scenario will be inferior to (1) and (2), but the point is, in reality, a lot of users were stuck with (3) or (4), they don't have a choice, and some users are confused by (5) and (6)

In your case, you are comparing (1) and (3), and option (1) performs better then option (3), naturally. When I suggest someone compare phone out vs line out, it belongs to option (4), when there is no information to confirm whether the line out is a clean, unamplified line out or its merely a fixed level output from headphone output.

I have edited my previous Dual Input mode explanation to include this summary, and added another paragraph to accommodate option (6). Hopefully this will clarify various scenarios of dual input modes of C9.

 

[Andykong]

Sorry, I was misunderstood the context. Ignore what i said previously.



Settings:
SE > BAL (Line Out 1.05V/3V), Low Gain, timbre SS + Class A and Spotify

Disclaimer: i don't have golden ears, take my finding as from noob

- LO 1.05V/3V, sound brickwalled (thanks I learn something new), vocal seems louder than usual, there is distortion? at some point around 2:59-3:04
- Without LO, vocal loudness more balance than LO, distortion? at 2:59-3:04, less noticeable

It's already midnight here, I will try again with song that i familiar in the next morning

Sorry, can you clarify your setting for me? both "LO 1.05V/3V" and "Without LO" scenario is connected to C9 in Line input mode? when you set SP2000 to "without LO", that is actually the phone output of the DAP? So you have two volume control in place? Did you adjust two volume freely? or you fixed the volume control of SP2000 to a particular setting and use the volume control of C9 exclusively?

 

[LabelH]

Sorry, can you clarify your setting for me? both "LO 1.05V/3V" and "Without LO" scenario is connected to C9 in Line input mode? when you set SP2000 to "without LO", that is actually the phone output of the DAP? So you have two volume control in place? Did you adjust two volume freely? or you fixed the volume control of SP2000 to a particular setting and use the volume control of C9 exclusively?

LO 1.05V/3V means i tried Line Output at 1.05V (lowest) and 3V (highest) to C9 Line input mode, both are sound the same, volume control pure from C9 here.
Without LO, i turn off Line Output in DAP and connect to C9 Line input mode, I have 2 volume control from DAP + C9 here.

During the playing, I need to adjust the volume level to relatively match the loudness.
The "distortion" i heard, i think it's come from the song itself, i'm not sure about it, that's why i put (?) in my impression
For my taste, LO in SP2000 sound aggressive compare to normal line input C9 or PRE mode.

 

[LabelH]

How does it sound if you use the wm1a with the c9 as an amp? Im curious

@lumdicks I actually also curious LP P6 Pro pairing with C9. Could you share some comment?

 

[lumdicks]

@lumdicks I actually also curious LP P6 Pro pairing with C9. Could you share some comment?

P6 Pro is having variable LO and I have tried to connect to C9 via both Line in (option 5 as per @Andykong) and Preamp in (option 6). Both options further improve the power and imaging while preserving the tonality of P6 Pro, but I prefer option 5 as the background is darker and I can have better control on volume by using the C9.

The difference with standalone P6 Pro is even more obvious in driving CAN such as my Mr. Speakers Ether Flow Open.

 

[LabelH]

P6 Pro is having variable LO and I have tried to connect to C9 via both Line in (option 5 as per @Andykong) and Preamp in (option 6). Both options further improve the power and imaging while preserving the tonality of P6 Pro, but I prefer option 5 as the background is darker and I can have better control on volume by using the C9.

The difference with standalone P6 Pro is even more obvious in driving CAN such as my Mr. Speakers Ether Flow Open.

Thanks for sharing. I really tempted to purchase another DAP and headphone now.

 

[Andykong]

P6 Pro is having variable LO and I have tried to connect to C9 via both Line in (option 5 as per @Andykong) and Preamp in (option 6). Both options further improve the power and imaging while preserving the tonality of P6 Pro, but I prefer option 5 as the background is darker and I can have better control on volume by using the C9.

The difference with standalone P6 Pro is even more obvious in driving CAN such as my Mr. Speakers Ether Flow Open.

Just to recap:
5. Variable Line Out: use LINE input mode of C9 with digital volume set to maximum or maintain at a higher level.
6. Pseudo Pre-amp Output or Pre-amp mode: similar to (4), try both line out to C9 LINE input and Pre-amp mode to C9 PRE-amp input, theoretically, LINE out option is the default C9 setting and it should be superior

Glad to know your impression is in line with my "prediction".

You have raised one interesting point: preserving the tonality of P6 Pro, is there any different between the two input modes along this line?

 

[lumdicks]

Just to recap:
5. Variable Line Out: use LINE input mode of C9 with digital volume set to maximum or maintain at a higher level.
6. Pseudo Pre-amp Output or Pre-amp mode: similar to (4), try both line out to C9 LINE input and Pre-amp mode to C9 PRE-amp input, theoretically, LINE out option is the default C9 setting and it should be superior

Glad to know your impression is in line with my "prediction".

You have raised one interesting point: preserving the tonality of P6 Pro, is there any different between the two input modes along this line?

Let me try both options again after working today and share more on this later.

 

[runssical]

My thoughts on the WA11 + Diana V2 pairing.

Basically it's not a transparent amp. It introduces low frequency distortions in the signal in a way that sounds bad.

I have an actual portable tube amp - Oriolus BA300s mkii and the way it distorts the midrange actually sounds good whereas WA11 distortions are louder/more audible and sounds bad.

They were probably trying to emulate tube sound in a SS amp and it ended up sounding like trash.

Have you noticed that both ALO and Oriolus have pulled out of the portable amp market? FiiO also discontinued their A5 amp and iBasso has stopped making dedicated amps. Cayin also discontinued their portable amps. With the Cayin C9 they're coming back to the market but only with a pricey boutique product that is sure to see extremely low sales volume. It's a shame that to see such nice device relegated to the status of prestiege product. I think this isattributed to declining demand for dedicated amps whcih may be the result of Apple and Samsung eliminating audio jacks from their smartphones. People are shifting to either AIO devices, DAC/AMP combo devices, or Bluetooth headphones. Otherwise I'm sure we would see more amazing products like the Cayin C9 and at much lower prices.

I hope other companies quickly reverse engineer the Cayin C9 and offer some alternatives at lower price points. Utilizing the ubiquitous18650 cells is a brilliant idea and ensures the amp will never go obsolete. This should be standard with portables.

 

[seamon]

Have you noticed that both ALO and Oriolus have pulled out of the portable amp market? FiiO also discontinued their A5 amp and iBasso has stopped making dedicated amps. Cayin also discontinued their portable amps. With the Cayin C9 they're coming back to the market but only with a pricey boutique product that is sure to see extremely low sales volume. It's a shame that to see such nice device relegated to the status of prestiege product. I think this isattributed to declining demand for dedicated amps whcih may be the result of Apple and Samsung eliminating audio jacks from their smartphones. People are shifting to either AIO devices, DAC/AMP combo devices, or Bluetooth headphones. Otherwise I'm sure we would see more amazing products like the Cayin C9 and at much lower prices.

I hope other companies quickly reverse engineer the Cayin C9 and offer some alternatives at lower price points. Utilizing the ubiquitous18650 cells is a brilliant idea and ensures the amp will never go obsolete. This should be standard with portables.

Lol no. Oriolus just released a portable stack - BD20 DAC, BA20 Amp and BA300s mkii Tube amp. ALO is concentrating more on IEMs I think.

 

[Andykong]

Have you noticed that both ALO and Oriolus have pulled out of the portable amp market? FiiO also discontinued their A5 amp and iBasso has stopped making dedicated amps. Cayin also discontinued their portable amps. With the Cayin C9 they're coming back to the market but only with a pricey boutique product that is sure to see extremely low sales volume. It's a shame that to see such nice device relegated to the status of prestiege product. I think this isattributed to declining demand for dedicated amps whcih may be the result of Apple and Samsung eliminating audio jacks from their smartphones. People are shifting to either AIO devices, DAC/AMP combo devices, or Bluetooth headphones. Otherwise I'm sure we would see more amazing products like the Cayin C9 and at much lower prices.

I hope other companies quickly reverse engineer the Cayin C9 and offer some alternatives at lower price points. Utilizing the ubiquitous18650 cells is a brilliant idea and ensures the amp will never go obsolete. This should be standard with portables.

Apple and Samsung eliminating audio jacks from their smartphones has very little implication with portable headphone amplifier market because mobile phone users tends to look for DAC/Amp as their upgrade option with they want to use their mobile phone as source. To start with, no mobile phone offers line out, audiophile are alway skeptical with double amping, and the quality of DAC function will become the inevitable bottleneck of the audio chain. DAC/Amp approach should relief the bottleneck conveniently.

Having said that, while Samsung and iphone rarely contributed to this market, LG and Vivo has frequently market their mobile phones as "HiFi quality". The Quad DAC of LG mobile phone has frequently quoted by some users as high quality phone output and comparable to a lot of DAPs. Selected Vivo mobile phones has "HiFi mode", and they were the reason why ESS developed the famous ES9018K2M chipset that benefited a lot of DAP. I am interested to find out whether these HiFi quality mobile phone can be benefited by something like C9.

By the way, Cayin always prepared to share our expertise. Check out the specification table and functional diagram of our DAP and C9 headphone amplifier, and the detail explanation of different features, including how we install the vacuum tubes into our portable devices. We have provided a lot of detail information that you won't find in other brands. I doubt you need to go through another round of reverse engineering if you are an well-trained electronic engineer with decent experience in related product R&D.

 

[Whitigir]

I have tried all of Andy list to try from 1-6, and IMO I can clearly hear which one has a better line out implemented. I kept saying that the Max somehow stood out with just Balanced Line out into C9 Line in (4). The biggest differences is that it has a much more precise imaging, localization, definitive of staging and resolutions and cleaner backgrounds. Then I read Andy post again and realized the Max has 4.4V line out, and also can confirm it has a true line out rather than Pseudo one.

Now, I think many other will be curious of this since N8 also offer a true line out, and I only know @twister6 to sport all of these. What do you prefer between Max and N8 to C9 ?

I listen and test different line out from different DAP from time to time , realizing the differences but never had a clear understanding of their line out implementations. Thanks @Andykong, I now can tell both the differences and the How. In my opinion, the ability to reveal the source quality from the C9 is breathes taking from the open box experiences, and that is why I kept on saying that the C9 is worth every penny, and the proof of it being a sophisticated High End dedicated amp

 

[runssical]

I have tried all of Andy list to try from 1-6, and IMO I can clearly hear which one has a better line out implemented. I kept saying that the Max somehow stood out with just Balanced Line out into C9 Line in (4). The biggest differences is that it has a much more precise imaging, localization, definitive of staging and resolutions and cleaner backgrounds. Then I read Andy post again and realized the Max has 4.4V line out, and also can confirm it has a true line out rather than Pseudo one.

Now, I think many other will be curious of this since N8 also offer a true line out, and I only know @twister6 to sport all of these. What do you prefer between Max and N8 to C9 ?

I listen and test different line out from different DAP from time to time , realizing the differences but never had a clear understanding of their line out implementations. Thanks @Andykong, I now can tell both the differences and the How. In my opinion, the ability to reveal the source quality from the C9 is breathes taking from the open box experiences, and that is why I kept on saying that the C9 is worth every penny, and the proof of it being a sophisticated High End dedicated amp

Are you the same guy who came up with the popular Z7 micropore tape and rewiring mods several years ago? Your username looks familiar.

 

[Whitigir]

Are you the same guy who came up with the popular Z7 micropore tape and rewiring mods several years ago? Your username looks familiar.

I have been around for a while, and published a few DIY threads