[Tidalizer]

Regarding DSPs, I wasn't referring to the computing power, I was referring to the mathematical calculations being required and timings, an engineer has had to code software for these calculations based on the settings made via your head unit, taking many different settings into account at the same time, (EQ, time alignment, db levels, sub out, channel balance, main volume, crossover, roll off, active crossovers possibly other settings I can't remember), all acting upon a stream of numbers coming in (digital audio), doing mathematical operations to them before passing the modified numbers and timings to the DAC. If any of these calculations are not bang on or have rounding errors on the settings or in the calculations or you have clock jitter then a critical listener such as myself will pick up on it, your average listener wont.

I'm sure there's good DSPs with excellent characteristics and accuracy and there's cheap DSPs as per any electronic equipment and products, it's a gamble and an expensive one when you're looking at a $500 DSP.

So - DSPs / time alignment / RTA for multi amps / multi channel, multi speakers positioned all over your car, separate mid speakers and tweeters - yes I get it 100%, basic but not necessarily low sound quality 2 speakers and a sub, nah.

Anyhow as I've said, regardless of how the time alignment is set I can hear minor distortions in the audio, so that isn't due to hearing 1 speaker over the other problem, but fair enough I'll try time alignment yet again on my 80 PRS and see if I feel there's any benefit to it. I don't see the need for a RTA or pro sound installer to dial my sound in, I have two full range front speakers (no separate tweeters) and 1 sub, there isn't much to dial in.

Overall I just don't get your argument really, you seem to be saying compressed bluetooth is ok, don't worry about it, I mean how do you feel about playing mp3's via your car audio ? personally no thanks, they sound horrid, even mp3's with higher bit rates, e.g. the difference in audio quality between Spotify and Tidal is seriously night and day, you'd have to be partially deaf not to hear a difference.

So that's what I'm after, the full Tidal experience and not a compressed experience, I don't see what's wrong with wanting that, taking compression out of the audio chain surely is a sensible thing to do if you're looking for better SQ ??? and yes a better amp and speakers applies to all audio systems.

What you all seem to be saying is play any old junk mp3's and as long as you have a DSP and time alignment they'll sound absolutely great, for me audio has moved on 16bit, 44Khz is CD / old, you all should be wanting 24bit / 96Khz uncompressed, all mp3's should just be deleted

As regards an amp if I'm going for a full sized amp install then I think this might be better, this is a class AB whereas the JBL amp is class D, just to drive the 2 front speakers.

https://www.amazon.com/JVC-KS-AX204...=JVC+KS-AX204&qid=1560792889&s=gateway&sr=8-1

Actually the Sony GS4 sounds really good and it's not that expensive, quote "The XM-GS4 4-channel amplifier is engineered to enhance every track – including High-Resolution Audio files, thanks to an ultra-wide frequency range that extends up to 100kHz." - see now someone is talking my language the eye of sauron is now focused on this amp - i want it

 

[Tidalizer]

I started looking at other options for amps and found the 'JBL GTO-1004e' this extends upto 100KHz, I can't find out what class it is so ok I thought I'll look for a youtube vid / review,

First video



Which I think sums things up in the car audio world, it's all about bass and sound pressure level, SQ eerm what's that.

 

[Tidalizer]

Jeez -_-

 

[Tidalizer]

Hmm this looks interesting, extends up to 70KHz, class AB, reasonably priced.

https://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-GM-A...neer+GM-A3702&qid=1560797186&s=gateway&sr=8-1

But as usual the reviews are all about how it performs driving a sub :/

 

[BusyBoxSt7]

Tidalizer,
1) 99% of music is mixed with all sorts of mathematical rounding errors too and the only way to ever hear it 100% how the band originally approved/intended it is to go listen to it in the actual room it was mixed in (or mastered... impossible in either case).
2) I'm not sure why all the stuff about bluetooth. I said to avoid using BT.
3) "Which I think sums things up in the car audio world, it's all about bass and sound pressure level, SQ eerm what's that." - You're seeing this sort of stuff because you're looking at popular consumer level brands (JBL). Not a lot of SQ guys these days running JBL stuff (not bashing it If it fits the budget....). By contrast, go to about 23:30 on this video (note this is ONLY one pair of drivers, the doors aren't wired in).

 

[BusyBoxSt7]

What KHz it extends to is a fairly minor detail. Note, a top notch DAC running at 16/44 is going to sound better than a crappy one at 24/192. Always.

I would sooner take 65 watts from Zapco than 95w of modern pioneer (the link you sent)..
https://www.zapco.com/st-2x-sq those are about $80 NEW.

 

[BusyBoxSt7]

That is, if you only need 2 channels and aren't going to run the front end "active" (meaning crossovers controlled by head unit or DSP) but are running is passive (passive physical crossovers for your tweeters vs. woofers (commonly referred to as tweeters and "mid-bass")), I'd do the Zapco over the pioneer any day. The higher channel count version of that Zapco are getting put in very expensive SQ installs. Not so much that pioneer. The pioneers looks more like it'd belong with some Kicker subs. Just my 2 cents.

 

[BusyBoxSt7]

Hmm this looks interesting, extends up to 70KHz, class AB, reasonably priced.

https://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-GM-A...neer+GM-A3702&qid=1560797186&s=gateway&sr=8-1

But as usual the reviews are all about how it performs driving a sub :/

Again, this is due to the brand you're looking at. Stuff they stock at Walmart / Best Buy... The 2xSQ is $70 on ebay. 4 channel (nonSQ) starts at $139 (new) and $220 for a new 4XSQ. I got a 6XSQ used for $275 so I can run tweeters, doors and my stock sub all off that (it's running 20-40 watts a channel now, so 100-150w, good watts, should be fine).

 

[Tidalizer]

I'm not concerned about the watts at all, I'm happy with the level of volume my head unit produces, so hopefully any amp will produce more volume than a head unit.

The upper frequency response of an amp as you say may not be a big deal, especially if the amp overall produces poor quality, but to be stamped with a hires audio badge the amp must extend to 40KHz I believe, of course no one can hear a 40KHz tone but I can believe an amp with extended upper response will produce the detail and fast transients that 24bit / 96K produces.



Excellent video about the dash level speakers but that requires major skill, time, patience and some level of guts to start hacking chunks out of your car. The chances of me even attempting something like that are about zero, but yeah I can imagine that would sound awesome which you can never tell from a youtube video.

So for a full sized amp requiring pain to install I have lots of choices - which is good, I think the pain of installing it will be worth it.

 

[BusyBoxSt7]

2X, 4X (zapco) and sony GS4 are all smaller amps.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Ok thanks, that's good gear, although that amp will require mounting, an extra high current wire from my battery, routing the low level inputs, speaker wire routing, painful.

That's why I'm wondering why you even want to mess with the car to begin with since even with your plan that doesn't involve the DSP you're still going to tear up the carpet and run wires under the dash and into the doors unless you just drill into the dash to run wires and then just leave the wires just on top of the carpet.

Also I'm not sure about that amp in terms of the internal electronics, apparently it has "variable electronic crossovers"...

If you don't use the crossovers you're going to have the sub bass frequencies coming out of the midwoofer and have vocals cwooommwwwiiiiinnng wwwwoooooowwwwwt owwwfff ddwaaaaa shhuuuuBWwwooffaaaa.

And they're variable because the settings depend on acoustics on each car and how you installed them. Still hear the sub too loud and clearly in the back? Cut the sub lower, even if you leave a gap, since a crossover "cut" isn't like you take a spectrum and then chop it with a knife straight down. You trim the frequencies going into either, gradually muting it more and more as you go farther from the selected "center" frequency.

....and can route the audio signal to ADAS accessories, it has a Ethernet style connection - eeh what is all that about ?

For more complicated cars since they're not just simple GPS running through the stereo anymore.

And you can get a crimping tool for not a lot of money. If you can strip a wire you can crimp a wire, as long as you have the tool and connectors.

I don't want my audio going via any analogue to digital conversion inside an amp and as usual you can't find out exactly what's going on electronically for this amp.

There's no point in them adding an ADC circuit without a DSP if such a DSP in an amp will only handle crossovers when an analogue crossover circuit isn't going to cost a lot.

I've got no problem with crossovers made from passive components - pure analogue.

Thn why do you want to use an amp and expect it to be simple?! Because they have analogue active crossovers. It's like the difference between a Schiit Sys which is a passive preamp and most other preamps.

If you want an amp with passive crossovers, prepare to whip out the breadboards and soldering irons, so you can manually swap the capacitors to tweak the crossover settings. And if you don't tweak the crossovers (and statistically speaking you won't get it right the first time), I predict you're going to come back here or any other forum because the system sounds muddy and you want a clearer system because clearly I have no idea what I'm talking about and recommended you the wrong speakers because car acoustics are a non-reality to you compared to 32 BIT 384 KHZ HIGH FIDELITY YEAH YEAH YEAH BABY 16/44 IS FOR LOSERS HELL YEAH!!!

I say I do know how to use the DSP on the 80 PRS, it's simple, it has speaker measurements, I set these, I've been through every option on the 80 PRS 100 times....I listen with simple settings, they sound best, if there was better settings I would have found them by now.

1. Properly angled tweeters (if not also midwoofers) are still the first step before T/A.

2. You don't just literally follow what the tape measure says since there are other bits like the window glass and the windshield and the dash and the steering wheel etc that are there. It's not a clear path like on a home audio system.

3. Did you even wire the midwoofers and tweeters separately direct to the 80PRS without the passive crossovers? Because if you hooked them up to the passive crossover and then set the 80PRS to active mode, chances are you've been sending only the signal meant for the midwoofer to both the tweeter and midwoofer, hence why it doesn't sound clear enough to you and why T/A doesn't seem to make a difference.

It's either you know how to maximize the DSP, or you screw it up even worse than normal settings with passive crossovers. There is no middle ground. If your system sounds worse in Active Mode than when using the passive crossovers, then obviously the settings were the problem and not the DSP nor the BT.

I have no complaints with the 80 PRS audio quality I just dislike having to use a compressed bluetooth connection...

Except GIGO isn't the main problem in a car but hey I already lost count of how many times I said that just in this thread.

I mean you know what, just look for an EMMA event near you, and use BT on their cars. Then ask them to disable the T/A and see how screwed up the sound gets. And even if you still don't use DSP at the very least you can go there and find a pro that can do the kind of installation in your car that will be done properly for whatever limits you set (like, never use sacrilegious DSPs) and you never have to bother with the pain of disassembling your car to run wires.

When you say DAP, what is that ? my DAP is my phone and the DAC in my phone would be junk, my DAP is simply my phone over USB to an external DAC with line outs, same as the 80 PRS really but the DAC is better than the DAC in the 80 PRS and there's no bluetooth in the way.

I'm saying DAP because it doesn't matter whether you get a DAC for your phone or you use a Hi-Fi DAP, anything that runs off USB powerbanks will likely deliver less than 2Volts, lower than what the 80PRS can do, and you'll just complain that the output is lower. Or you can avoid that by installing a DC to AC inverter so you can use a desktop DAC or you can get a desktop DAC that uses an AC to DC power brick so you just design a custom 12VDC to whatever voltage DC that DAC needs to work with the car's power supply.

It sounds like you're saying what I've been saying and that is to use the line out from my DAC direct to an amp.

That's what some are doing and

1) Using a tablet as a digital server in the dash is doable but takes waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more work that you will only find more "painful" if you want a clean install

2) If you run any sort of processing on the 80PRS, even just the EQ, you will end up running that signal through an ADC so that it can use its DSP to run that processing, so honestly I'm totally confused as to why somebody so obsessed with signal purity that a standalone DSP working off an analogue signal from a stock receiver on most cars would just hook up a DAC to a 1DIN HU with a DSP.

Oh and chances are it probably controls the output at the digial level, so yeah, it needs to run its ADC so you can use digital volume control on it, so you might as well run the DAC or a DAP or just your phone direct into the amp so you won't have any of that DSP ADC hogwash.

And to...ya know...just wait until you get home and use a DSP-free system in an environment that doesn't need it and so products tend to never have it other than for home theater.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Regarding DSPs, I wasn't referring to the computing power, I was referring to the mathematical calculations being required and timings, an engineer has had to code software for these calculations based on the settings made via your head unit, taking many different settings into account at the same time, (EQ, time alignment, db levels, sub out, channel balance, main volume, crossover, roll off, active crossovers possibly other settings I can't remember), all acting upon a stream of numbers coming in (digital audio), doing mathematical operations to them before passing the modified numbers and timings to the DAC. If any of these calculations are not bang on or have rounding errors on the settings or in the calculations or you have clock jitter then a critical listener such as myself will pick up on it, your average listener wont.

That's why you have to tweak it and use an RTA if you can.

I'm sure there's good DSPs with excellent characteristics and accuracy and there's cheap DSPs as per any electronic equipment and products, it's a gamble and an expensive one when you're looking at a $500 DSP.

Let me see...

$500 for tools that can address a problem or $150 for a tool that does not address any of the problems.

Gee whiz let me get a mathematician on the line to figure this out.

Anyhow as I've said, regardless of how the time alignment is set I can hear minor distortions in the audio, so that isn't due to hearing 1 speaker over the other problem, but fair enough I'll try time alignment yet again on my 80 PRS and see if I feel there's any benefit to it.

That's from power. And you still have asymmetrical path lengths to the driver side FR driver vs the passenger side FR driver.

I don't see the need for a RTA or pro sound installer to dial my sound in

A few examples that parallel that are:

1. A lot of people thought they didn't need a doctor and it was just the cold. Orange juice would make it go away. Coughing? Nah, more orange juice. Coughing blood? What the heck is this rash? OK maybe let's go see a doctor....why do you need to know my sexual history...

2. Honey are you sure you don't just want to call the plumber?....OHMYGODTHEWHOLEHOUSEISFLOODEDCALLTHEPLUMBERNOWWW!!!

I have two full range front speakers (no separate tweeters) and 1 sub, there isn't much to dial in.

So you're using crap speakers. OK, so a speaker upgrade and amp upgrade will help. So we're clear...you set it on active mode with only a single fullrange driver? No wonder the sound isn't clear, you trimmed the frequencies going into already crappy drivers. I mean we clearly don't need to see the doctor or call the plumber, you can clearly handle this one on your own.

Or well no. That doesn't change the last part of one of my replies. You can get better speakers, you can get some clarity over your muddy sounding system, but then the treble is sooooooooooooooooooo clear it pierces your eardrums and the low end is still kinda muddy because...ya know...pathlength variances and all that.

Overall I just don't get your argument really, you seem to be saying compressed bluetooth is ok, don't worry about it, I mean how do you feel about playing mp3's via your car audio ? personally no thanks, they sound horrid, even mp3's with higher bit rates, e.g. the difference in audio quality between Spotify and Tidal is seriously night and day, you'd have to be partially deaf not to hear a difference

So that's what I'm after, the full Tidal experience and not a compressed experience, I don't see what's wrong with wanting that, taking compression out of the audio chain surely is a sensible thing to do if you're looking for better SQ ??? and yes a better amp and speakers applies to all audio systems.

Well how about you actually try to get what we're saying by doing what I am freaking telling you to do at home.

i. Put your home system on the patio, one speaker against the wall, one speaker against open space. Play a track using the most expensive CDP or DAC you can get your hands on. Then go back inside and play the same tracks but via BT from your phone in your proper listening room.

2. Put speakers up against a glass door. Take them off the stand and put them on the floor next to the stand. Disassemble the tweeters and wire them using longer runs, then tape them to the platform on the stands. Now take your chair and move it next to the right channel. Play a track. Go use the same expensive CDP or DAC, I don't care. Now try fixing the sound without DSP. What's that? You rearranged the room to its default position? Good luck doing that in the car.

GIGO isn't your problem in a car. Your crap speakers and upgrading to good speakers where you will have more severe pathlength variances are.

What you all seem to be saying is play any old junk mp3's and as long as you have a DSP and time alignment they'll sound absolutely great, for me audio has moved on 16bit, 44Khz is CD / old, you all should be wanting 24bit / 96Khz uncompressed, all mp3's should just be deleted

I drew up the comparison between home audio and car audio in MS Paint, which is practically like drawing a diagram in crayon to a child, and even that wasn't understood in any sense at all, because just in this reply alone I'm going to have to say it again; GIGO IS NOT THE MAIN PROBLEM IN A CAR, BUT THE CABIN ITSELF, EVEN WORSE IF YOU WANT IT TO SOUND IN ANY WAY CLOSE TO YOUR HOME SYSTEM.

As regards an amp if I'm going for a full sized amp install then I think this might be better, this is a class AB whereas the JBL amp is class D, just to drive the 2 front speakers.

https://www.amazon.com/JVC-KS-AX204...=JVC+KS-AX204&qid=1560792889&s=gateway&sr=8-1

Class D amps for fullrange applications now are more like Bel Canto Class D amplifiers and TriPath T-amps than whatever is sticking out of your home subwoofer's box with black fins on it.

Actually the Sony GS4 sounds really good and it's not that expensive, quote "The XM-GS4 4-channel amplifier is engineered to enhance every track – including High-Resolution Audio files, thanks to an ultra-wide frequency range that extends up to 100kHz." - see now someone is talking my language the eye of sauron is now focused on this amp - i want it

Yes and any actual engineer or any other audio professional - none of which we need to call in, according to you - would actually state that "high resolution" stickers on amplifiers is marketing fluff. An amplifier that is just a pure amplifier does not give a rat's arse whether the incoming input signal is high res or not, so that high res badge means nothing on a Sony product compared to, say, something like a Nelson Pass First Watt amplifier that has 0.0001% THD+N which turns out to be a quarter of what the Sony spits out with the signal even if they were both at 15watts output.

 

[Tidalizer]

ok this thread is getting crazy, I can't reply to all the comments, so here's where I'm at.

1. I have no problem with my current 80 PRS in terms of general clarity and sound level, it's clear and loud enough audio, all the lows, mids and highs are there, there is no massive problem to solve in terms of the sound. Comparing to my home hifi and expensive headphones the sound quality I have in my car isn't bad, it's not muddy or lacking in any major way over the entire audio spectrum. So there's no point in talking about DSPs, time alignment, tuning, RTA and so on because I'm already satisfied. I'm not saying my setup is comparable to a £5000 pro installed and tuned system but I'm reasonably ok with it, not everyone has the same expectations, wants or even how they hear music. Some people are happy listening to music over crappy standard mobile phone ear buds.

2. I know if I insert a speaker up my rear end and one down the toilet it isn't going to sound good, I have two ears, I only need 2 speakers, why on earth cars are fitted with 4 speakers in such a small space I'll never know, 4 speakers in my opinion makes car audio SQ worse.My speakers are in my doors, I'm not changing the location of the speakers because there's no where else to put them, it's a small car.

3. As stated more expensive amps and speakers will generally improve the sound clarity up to a point, I don't want to spend silly money to get the last 0.0001 % of sound quality. I will upgrade my speakers at some point and probably go for a 2 way with a separate tweeter.

4. I say audio SQ is as only as good as the weakest link in the chain, so all parts of the chain need addressing, I can start at either end i.e. from the speakers or from the source, I'm choosing to start at the audio source and work my way to the speakers later.

5. The thread isn't "pro car audio installation and I've got a limitless budget' it's about getting 24 bit 96Khz sound in a car at a sensible price, clearly car audio manufacturers are not capable to doing this (at a sensible price), I say I can do it using a desktop DAC direct to an amp.and an andriod phone.

6. My plan is to mount a full sized amp in the passenger foot well, where I've got easy access to all the speaker connections,and audio inputs, all I'll need is some high current wires, no I've not checked on the details but that's the plan.

7. Enabled time alignment on for my 80 PRs this morning, the audio image changed in terms of location and there was some depth if that's the right phrase, was I blown away and able to hear things in the tracks I'd never head before ? was the audio more revealing or detailed ? was there better instrument separation, nope not at all. I'll listen some more later but I'm still not sold on time alignment.

8. Seeing as we're using analogies, lets put it like this, some people like food stuffed with E numbers / artificial additives, sugar and fat, other people like natural healthy food like fruit and veg, this food might not taste as good but people still eat this food out of personal preference. So I want my audio untouched and natural, not messed with by a DSP, this might not sound as good but at least I know it's natural and not compressed, boosted, out of phase etc. that's what I want even it sounds worse.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

1. I have no problem with my current 80 PRS in terms of general clarity and sound level, it's clear and loud enough audio, all the lows, mids and highs are there, there is no massive problem to solve in terms of the sound.

Well I'm just as confused now, because if there's no problem, what's there to fix.

Well OK there could be tiny problems...but why fix it in ways that were otherwise described as either "painful" or "expensive."

Comparing to my home hifi and expensive headphones the sound quality I have in my car isn't bad, it's not muddy or lacking in any major way over the entire audio spectrum.

Gettng even more confused because there was an adamant need to use high res to get more clarity...which we've been saying is a non-solution. But maybe it's just that that point really isn't getting through and we've been driving in circles.

So there's no point in talking about DSPs, time alignment, tuning, RTA and so on because I'm already satisfied.

Even more confused...if satisfied, why the need to upgrade or add anything?

It's like "I'm happily married but banging my hot secretary can't possibly hurt."

I'm not saying my setup is comparable to a £5000 pro installed and tuned system but I'm reasonably ok with it, not everyone has the same expectations, wants or even how they hear music. Some people are happy listening to music over crappy standard mobile phone ear buds.

And I already lost count of how many times I said "manage expectations, so alright I'll suggest a non-solution but don't say I didn't warn you that it can cause more problems than what it solves."

2. I know if I insert a speaker up my rear end and one down the toilet it isn't going to sound good, I have two ears, I only need 2 speakers...

Why would Dynaudio put six drivers on the Contour S5.4?

Why would Ultimate Ears put six BA drivers in each tiny earpiece?

Because by "Four speakers" I do NOT mean "four channels" in the same sense as in home audio. It's still two channels as in stereo, except that Dynaudio and that UE IEM uses passive crossovers since they don't need to have separate DSP channels to control them, because
1. Those crossovers can be made specific to that speaker cabinet and that IEM
2. Which can be done because those drivers are all smack against each other, and mirrored stacked on the Dynaudio to minimize the tendency of the bass notes getting pulled downward depending on your chair height and distance, as well as how those balanced armature drivers are positioned in the shell firing into a tuned bore that kind of works like how you design the headers and X-Pipe on a freaking car so they fit, have the same primary tube lengths, and then merge after the headers so you hear a little bit less of "Brap......brap........brap........brap........brap........brap........brap........brap" and more "brapbrapbrapbrapbrapbrapbrapbrap" at idle and more "vrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrroooooooooooom" when you stomp on the gas.

why on earth cars are fitted with 4 speakers in such a small space I'll never know, 4 speakers in my opinion makes car audio SQ worse.My speakers are in my doors, I'm not changing the location of the speakers because there's no where else to put them, it's a small car.

1. Because manufacturers assume you have passengers in the rear who don't want to listen to music that has to pass through two bodies and two seats.

2. Serious car audio installs actually ditch those rear speakers, if not repurpose them for subwoofer mounting. You know, kind of like why the diagram I posted previously has one tweeter and one midwoofer on the left and one tweeter and one midwoofer on the right side, with only the subwoofer in the rear...

...which, ya know, is kinda like this.

Nobody is telling you to put another set of speakers in the rear because you don't sit in the middle of a stage in a concert for you to hear more sound behind you, unless you're listening to a concert BluRay that puts the audience screaming on the rear channels if you play it on an HT system. Also, applying Time Alignment is specific to the driver's seat (unless you save another profile for the passenger seat), so really that's basically aftermarket audio telling stock audio to take a hike.

3. As stated more expensive amps and speakers will generally improve the sound clarity up to a point, I don't want to spend silly money to get the last 0.0001 % of sound quality. I will upgrade my speakers at some point and probably go for a 2 way with a separate tweeter.

And then you hear them at different pathlengths and tell us we're trying to poke your eardrums to death and all the EQ you do can't fix it because the problem lies in hearing the two tweeters and two midwoofers all out of sync with each other.

But anyway just go ahead. If it works, good. But if it doesn't at least don't have the gall to say we didn't warn you about the potential for creating new problems for which the solutions are "painful expensive hogwash" (sic).

4. I say audio SQ is as only as good as the weakest link in the chain, so all parts of the chain need addressing, I can start at either end i.e. from the speakers or from the source, I'm choosing to start at the audio source and work my way to the speakers later.

We're not saying that the weakest part of the chain can't bring down the whole system.

We've been saying your understanding for what counts as the weakest part of the chain is extremely ignorant about the realities of a car cabin.

5. The thread isn't "pro car audio installation and I've got a limitless budget' it's about getting 24 bit 96Khz sound in a car at a sensible price, clearly car audio manufacturers are not capable to doing this (at a sensible price), I say I can do it using a desktop DAC direct to an amp.and an andriod phone.

Your desktop DAC is made to operate in a desktop environment where the two headphone drivers are right next to your head, you don't pull one farther out; or speakers where your seat is equidistant to both, not for a car where not only are you sitting off-center, the tweeter and midwoofer on each side are not smack next to each other as on a home audio speaker or on a multi-driver IEM where the BA drivers are firing into a tuned bore that merges their output like how a header and X-Pipe or H-Pipe stops the sound of a V-engine from sounding like two long-stroke four cylinder engines or two even more imbalanced 3cyl engines.

And for the record I have long lost count of how many times I explained that.

8. Seeing as we're using analogies, lets put it like this, some people like food stuffed with E numbers / artificial additives, sugar and fat, other people like natural healthy food like fruit and veg, this food might not taste as good but people still eat this food out of personal preference. So I want my audio untouched and natural, not messed with by a DSP, this might not sound as good but at least I know it's natural and not compressed, boosted, out of phase etc. that's what I want even it sounds worse.

Except the car is not the same environment as a kitchen or dining room and the more apt way of using such an analogy is that "Processed food" includes dry aging and smoking. That means DSP, properly and judiciously applied, is less "Spam" and more "concentrated flavor and sears easily because it has been dried out, but still retains the juices inside since you can get the Maillard reaction to happen without the juices spilling out and steaming the meat grey" or "BACON." Or in other cases, "lettuce and cabbage: lame raw, better fermented," because surprise, kimchi and sauerkraut count for processed food. They last all winter, but eat too much and the sodium content will catch up with Spam.

Yes, it might surprise you, but there are people who understand that the finer things in life aren't always "best DAC circuit" but "what works best in this particular situation." It's kind of like how I use Japanese knives, but that doesn't mean I'd use them like how people use and hone German knives (well, I wouldn't use a honing rod on a Wusthoff either anyway) or that a knife called a "gyuto" which literally means "beef blade" only gets to cut dry aged A5 Matsusaka beef like how the key to good audio is always highest res through a nice DAC in a situation where that is so far down the rank of issues that you have to deal with.

 

[BusyBoxSt7]

Protege, I might suggest for your heart health (meaning literally and metaphorically) to just let him do what he wants. He wants to experiment, maybe he needs to hear it for himself. And if all he hears is numbers then let him put an RS9 in there if he wants (we’re just wasting our time if he’s just hearing what he sees). Until he goes and hears well set up cars in the “stock” category or near (low budget), these realities probably won’t sink in. He’s most likely not time aligning stuff very well, isn’t willing to check his tuning with an RTA before and after he does it by ear to make sure he at least didn’t crank some freq or create a huge hole (beyond that, it is true that you can have a flattish RTA response that sounds ringy at a certain freq if it was necessary to spike the EQ too much at one point to get it to flatten the RTA). Point being though he’s going to do this so at best I think the only thing that’s going to help him at all is remind him to go to an SQ comp and perhaps steer him toward slightly better amps (since for some weird reason he’s looking at top end sample rates, esoteric by most people’s definitions, but pretty bottom of the barrel amplifiers which are a bad idea by MOST people’s opinions - thus my offering some still pretty cheap solutions for him to get an amp that’s good enough that it won’t be the weak link in his chain for a good decade at the rate we’re going here). Will it sound as good as if time aligned or EQ’d properly. No - period. But if he’s unwilling, why keep sending the same diagrams over and over. He doesn’t want to believe what he doesn’t want to believe. It’s like flat earth. You’ll go insane repeating this over and over.
OR, perhaps the solution is for him not to hear an amateur car, but an expert one (or maybe an am one with an RS9 basically) and to have that person both show and tell him that not using DSP screws up their whole system (that he just fell in love with - this is assuming he has ears and not just eyes for numbers - granted, an assumption we try to make with anyone online, especially in a place like headfi, no offense it’s just par for the course here because in headphones, everything’s a controlled environment so each change gives a very predictable outcome - completely unlike anything in a room or car). I personally don’t believe he’s nuts for not wanting to be on Bluetooth, or not wanting to listen to MP3. When we jump to 24 bit I start going “your cars probably not clear enough to hear that”. And when we get to 96 or definitely by 192 I’m seriously questioning if your home rig (speakers not headphones) is even capable of reliably showing you anything beyond a very minor diminishing return. I’m not saying it’s not there, I’m saying few people probably actually have a listening room very well set up. Those are all my guesses, just personal opinions. It is worth noting that extremely few engineers are even recording music at 192 and 96 is the “standard” but still tons of records are done at 44 or 48.

Btw, for those who don’t know, the reason 96 is standard and not 88 is not due to the math to get back to 44. It’s because up until recently (and still in most units) the crystals for the clocks are tuned for 48/96, not 44/88 so the clocking is more stable at 96. Recently some companies have gotten into putting in dual crystals finally. One for 44 and one for 48. Finally (finally as in there’s no reason to track at 96 or 48 on those units, the tiny bit more info vs 44/88 is not going to make any difference).