[kingoftown1]

Props to the users who gave 25 solid posts where obectivists, subjectivists and anyone in between were all able to hold a discussion while being respectful of each others' beliefs and experiences.

 

[silversurfer616]

To hear it is rather difficult but I think that I can feel it in the way the music emotionally connects with me.
As example I didn’t like Topping D90( which I bought to try out MQA), PSAudio Perfect Wave or most of the Metrum Dacs as they were not engaging with me.
On the other hand, I am very happy with the TT2 at the moment. But couldn’t stand the Mscaler(yes, had the Wave cables) as it made everything hyper detailed and almost bleached. It made me nervous!
When I lose myself in the music, I know the dac works for me.

 

[Since1991]

I really thought I couldn’t hear the difference between DACs, but my ifi IDSD Pro Signature started making screeching noises so I took it back to the place where I bought it from for servicing. Once I got home, I plugged my RME DAC back in to use for the time being, and then I noticed a big difference in soundstage.

 

[gregorio]

From an honest manufacturer and even giving a sponsor perspective …
I would really appreciate your sincere opinion about this subject.

I doubt you’ll get a response. Sponsors/Advertisers aren’t protected in this subforum against refutation by science (or even just the facts) as they are in all the other subforums on head-fi, so extremely few ever venture here and if they do, it’s virtually always just to give or confirm some technical/engineering fact, not repeat their usual marketing or opinion.

So basically your saying there no difference in sound between different dac chips

For 20 years or more, the differences between DAC chips have been so small they often can’t even be converted into sound. IE. The differences are often below the resolution of speakers/HPs. So obviously, if those differences are not in the sound being reproduced there cannot be any question of them being audible. Some differences may very slightly affect the actual sound reproduced but at levels which are inaudible. In controlled listening tests, no one has been able to reliably identify differences between DAC chips, for more than 20 years or so.

There is again a possible exception. In the last few years it’s become fashionable to provide the user with different filter choices. Most are again inaudible but there are some exceptions.

and we just hearing the differences is how each source change the sound?

It’s obvious if you think about it. DSP processing is of course deliberately designed to be audible. What would be the point of say loudness normalisation that didn’t audibly change the loudness or of a tone control/EQ which didn’t audibly change the tone, etc? However, if you can defeat (switch off/bypass) all those variables, there’s no audible differences between sources either.

The first step of a controlled test, is to change nothing at all, except the device being tested, in this case the DAC. Even then many/most audiophiles believe they can hear differences. This has always been proven to be a false belief, a result of perception error as mentioned, assuming the other steps of a controlled test have been followed, such as volume matching, etc. The exception again though, is some pathological DACs, NOS DACs for example.

I never really considered that since always heard there was a different in sound signature between say a burr chip compared to ESS, AKM or R2R.

And that’s really what’s so shocking about the audiophile world. It’s not that there’s some misinformation, there’s commonly at least some misinformation about most consumer products. What’s shocking about the audiophile world is that misinformation is commonly the ONLY information available. You have to go out of your way, “off the beaten track”, to find the actual facts. Therefore:

Guess going have to read more on this subject since your offering a different view and one I haven’t considered in the past.

That’s the difficulty, where do you go to read more on this subject? There’s tons of science, going back almost a century (and actual DACs have been around since the early 1950’s) but much of the science is behind paywalls and is often difficult to comprehend without specific education in the field. If you try to “read more” using audiophile sources, it’s virtually guaranteed you’ll be misled.

G

 

[gregorio]

When I lose myself in the music, I know the dac works for me.

So that leads to the question: Does the “DAC work for you” because it’s actually audibly changing the sound in some way that you can hear or feel or does it work for you for some other reason? For example, is it some bias/biases that is only affecting your perception but not affecting what you are actually hearing?

I really thought I couldn’t hear the difference between DACs, but my ifi IDSD Pro Signature started making screeching noises so I took it back to the place where I bought it from for servicing. Once I got home, I plugged my RME DAC back in to use for the time being, and then I noticed a big difference in soundstage.

What you’ve described is near ideal conditions for a perceptual error to occur and terrible conditions under which to detect an actual difference! I’m not disputing what you “noticed” just the cause of it: That there was a “big difference” in your perception but actually no audible difference between the DACs.

When reliably tested; in every case, that big difference has turned out to be a perceptual error and these results are just further confirmation of the objective measurements which dictate that the differences are either non-existent or below audibility.

G

 

[silversurfer616]

So that leads to the question: Does the “DAC work for you” because it’s actually audibly changing the sound in some way that you can hear or feel or does it work for you for some other reason? For example, is it some bias/biases that is only affecting your perception but not affecting what you are actually hearing?

What you’ve described is near ideal conditions for a perceptual error to occur and terrible conditions under which to detect an actual difference! I’m not disputing what you “noticed” just the cause of it: That there was a “big difference” in your perception but actually no audible difference between the DACs.

When reliably tested; in every case, that big difference has turned out to be a perceptual error and these results are just further confirmation of the objective measurements which dictate that the differences are either non-existent or below audibility.

G

It’s changing the sound in a way that agrees with me. It’s audible and I try not to analyse it. Not very scientific, I know but I am human and do first and foremost feel…especially when it’s music.

 

[gregorio]

It’s changing the sound in a way that agrees with me. It’s audible and I try not to analyse it.

Unless you analyse it, how do you know it’s changing the sound at all or if it is, that it’s audible, rather than just a perceptual error/bias? Aren’t you effectively stating that: “It’s audible because I try not to find out if it’s actually audible”?

Not very scientific, I know but I am human and do first and foremost feel…especially when it’s music.

Exactly, but obviously a dac IS very scientific, is not human, does not feel anything at all and doesn’t even have any idea it’s reproducing music (as opposed to any other type of sound)! Doesn’t your statement just confirm that what you are experiencing is a result of your “feeling” human brain and not the result of any audio performance difference in the DAC?

G

 

[silversurfer616]

Unless you analyse it, how do you know it’s changing the sound at all or if it is, that it’s audible, rather than just a perceptual error/bias? Aren’t you effectively stating that: “It’s audible because I try not to find out if it’s actually audible”?

Exactly, but obviously a dac IS very scientific, is not human, does not feel anything at all and doesn’t even have any idea it’s reproducing music (as opposed to any other type of sound)! Doesn’t your statement just confirm that what you are experiencing is a result of your “feeling” human brain and not the result of any audio performance difference in the DAC?

G

You have to understand that it’s the hearing first and this information translates into what I am feeling. Whatever you want to prove or disprove…good luck!

 

[Merkurio]

You have to understand that it’s the hearing first and this information translates into what I am feeling. Whatever you want to prove or disprove…good luck!

What he's saying (not trying to prove, because it's a fact) is that your feelings and emotional stimulus doesn't change the way that things and reality works.

Does that mean that you're not allowed to enjoy your fancy gear in any way you want? Of course not, it's your well-earned money after all and it's up to you to believe in the flat Earth, unicorns flying around, astrology and DACs changing the sound, if that makes you happy.

What you can't do is be so arrogant/narcissistic to the point of believing that your way of emotionally perceiving things actually shapes the world in which all we live (and the scientific/objective principles that support it), when it only determine your own reality.

 

[silversurfer616]

What he's saying (not trying to prove, because it's a fact) is that your feelings and emotional stimulus doesn't change the way that things and reality works.

Does that mean that you're not allowed to enjoy your fancy gear in any way you want? Of course not, it's your well-earned money after all and it's up to you to believe in the flat Earth, unicorns flying around, astrology and DACs changing the sound, if that makes you happy.

What you can't do is be so arrogant/narcissistic to the point of believing that your way of emotionally perceiving things actually shapes the world in which all we live (and the scientific/objective principles that support it), when it only determine your own reality.

In fact I am that arrogant(not narcissistic, though)that I believe that the way I emotionally perceive things shapes MY world. I am not interested in your world and if you perceive the same things differently to me only adds to the multitude of human experiences.
To compare flat earthers to people who hear differences in dacs is rather ignorant but ultimately very sweet of you.
To finalise, we don’t share the same realities.

 

[TYATYA]

Depending on contents, our eyes can see difference of very high resolution displays.
If you think can not do it with 400 dpi, try again (and dont care 300dpi as limit of human eyes!).
But if contents are text at big and bold font, you may not.

Back to topic. You can not hear difference because device is not hi-res enough (not on paper, as like "384Khz", I meant quality!).
Dac filter modes are enough difference to point out, on a same dac.

 

[Merkurio]

In fact I am that arrogant(not narcissistic, though)that I believe that the way I emotionally perceive things shapes MY world. I am not interested in your world and if you perceive the same things differently to me only adds to the multitude of human experiences.
To compare flat earthers to people who hear differences in dacs is rather ignorant but ultimately very sweet of you.
To finalise, we don’t share the same realities.

Your arrogance and ignorance become evident when you're rejecting the existence of an objective truth which is completely independent of what do you and I think (or feel) about a certain topic.

The fact you're emotionally attached to your music based on your gear (and I don't) is indeed a matter of personal perception as you said, and both premises are perfectly valid as I stated before, but the invariable and plain truth is that you certainly are not going to be able to tell differences between DACs in a proper controlled blind test, because all your emotional and confirmation biases will fade when you don't know which one is playing, revealing that your cognitive biases are only in your head and do not determine reality whatsoever (not MY reality, but THE reality we all live into).

You can deny truth and being happy as I said before, but truth remains truth until you are able to prove otherwise with facts, not appealing dogmas or emotions.

 

[silversurfer616]

I am glad you are feeling better now having made your point and we can go on listening to music in our own personal reality.

 

[Merkurio]

I am glad you are feeling better now having made your point and we can go on listening to music in our own personal reality.

I'm not emotional attached to this subject other than trying to rationalize the level of conversation, so I'm not "feeling" better or worse at all.
But cheers for that, music enjoyment is why we are (or should we be) into this hobby, after all.

 

[chesebert]

Card carrying ASR member?