Can a computer be a decent audiophile source? - The answer is yes.

[sejarzo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by amphead /img/forum/go_quote.gif My sincere apologies Steve, freudian slip! I also worked for Intel engineering at Fabs 3, 7, and 9.1.

Now that actually makes it even funnier, doesn't it?

 

[itsborken]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ahriman4891 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well I agree, but that's a factor that could be relevant for some users. I don't flatter myself by believing that I can hear a single-bit error, either I go with the computer largely due to convenience, even though the act of loading a CD into a tray does feel somewhat more "elevated", as Superpredator noted.

I think we are both on the same page. I get 'lazy' too and just let the laptop spool off tunes; always interesting to see what will pop up next when an album finishes.

When I work from home I'll grab 10 or so CDs though and pop them in one by one. I like glancing at the musicians/instruments, artwork, reading the lyrics (even though it's nowhere near as satisfying as the LPs were/are).

 

[ccotenj]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sejarzo /img/forum/go_quote.gif Are you referring to the particular type of interference and noise that looks at all the bits passing by, and decides to only eat the most tender audio bits?

well, audio bits DO taste better...

 

[ccotenj]

Quote:

Originally Posted by itsborken /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think we are both on the same page. I get 'lazy' too and just let the laptop spool off tunes; always interesting to see what will pop up next when an album finishes. When I work from home I'll grab 10 or so CDs though and pop them in one by one. I like glancing at the musicians/instruments, artwork, reading the lyrics (even though it's nowhere near as satisfying as the LPs were/are).

y'know, i can agree with that... i DO like reading the liner notes, looking at the pics, etc. that part of it is definitely lost by playing it directly from the computer... kinda like "lost youth"...

 

[amphead]

Steve, your article reminds me of leading and trailing edges for digital square waves, and the risetime dependence for a given semiconductors logic integrity.

 

[dmk005]

Quote:

Originally Posted by itsborken /img/forum/go_quote.gif When I work from home I'll grab 10 or so CDs though and pop them in one by one. I like glancing at the musicians/instruments, artwork, reading the lyrics (even though it's nowhere near as satisfying as the LPs were/are).

I love that part of the music experience as well. On my computer, I am only a few clicks from VOLUMES of information about each song, the album, the artist, the recording studio, the label and Paris Hilton too.

I have a dedicated Mac Mini playing lossless off it's internal hardrive and it sound quite amazing hooked to my Corda Opera via USB. My Mac mini is hooked up to it's own 24 inch wide screen monitor and I work on my company laptop which is hooked up to a 30 inch viewsonic monitor. I love listening and looking up at my Mac monitor and watching my widgets including a cool lyrics widget that shows lyrics of whatever song is playing on itunes at the time. Any CD player would be going backwards from here for me.

If anything, I would upgrade along the path above with maybe a separate DAC and Amp. I find the Opera DAC to be somewhat unstable.

 

[itsborken]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmk005 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I love that part of the music experience as well. On my computer, I am only a few clicks from VOLUMES of information about each song, the album, the artist, the recording studio, the label and Paris Hilton too.

That is always an option. Unless I'm on Head-Fi/working I normally keep the lights down low and panels off. I see plenty of computers as as sysadmin; after almost 30 years if I can get away from them for a little while, so much the better.

I have a dedicated Mac Mini playing lossless off it's internal hardrive. [/QUOTE]

Sounds like a nice setup; I'll have to give it a try (not sure my library will fit on the mini). The unstable Opera DAC doesn't sound good though; I haven't noticed a problem running my HP via USB to it. Then again, my laptop is 4x the cost of a mini so it better not.

 

[khbaur330162]

I thought optical->electrical conversion was a very large source of jitter to begin with? Wouldn't having to output the digital signal form your computer to an external DAC via optical cabling sort of defeat the purpose of using a computer? (Of course unless it was for convenience) From the article I got the impression that computers had the edge of being able to read and REREAD the data, therefore decreasing the chance of unread/misread bits of data, but if the system is actually creating jitter issues in the long-run, where does this inherent superior performance lie?

Also, I thought power supplies for PC's were horridly unclean due to -what looks to be fabled- interference from components within the PC... I mean, if I hook up a set of headphones to my headphone out on my home computer I can hear like a slight hum that is only present when the CAN is lit up, or en train of being repeatedly lit up, meaning some process is being run using up the computer's RAM, correct? What is that hum?


Finally, I would commend Steve Nugent for writing such an informative article, perhaps even praising him for how well he wrote it, but I'm sure it'd simply be a slap in the face to have some 18 year old acting like some sort of critic, nodding in approval of his essay. So I'll simply leave it at that article made me severely question my current medium of music, and that I'd definitely like to see articles delving, perhaps, further into the depths of PC audio. I don't know much about the subject, so these questions may be noobish, but I'd like to see some one write about PC audio playback dipping past simply redbook. Can PC's rip SACD's or DVD-A's? If so, can they send it to an external DAC w/o being encrypted? This, SACD support, is something that no current trasnport + external DAC solution has ever really touched, right?

 

[dmk005]

Quote:

Originally Posted by itsborken /img/forum/go_quote.gif That is always an option. Unless I'm on Head-Fi/working I normally keep the lights down low and panels off. I see plenty of computers as as sysadmin; after almost 30 years if I can get away from them for a little while, so much the better.

I get you on this. Of course a printer can help you achieve the same result.

Quote:

Originally Posted by itsborken /img/forum/go_quote.gif Sounds like a nice setup; I'll have to give it a try (not sure my library will fit on the mini). The unstable Opera DAC doesn't sound good though; I haven't noticed a problem running my HP via USB to it. Then again, my laptop is 4x the cost of a mini so it better not.

I have a 500GB lacie drive which I use as my primary back up storage. I figure I can always use it as the primary source for music if I desire. Since it is connected via firewire, I doubt I would hear a difference.

My first Opera lost it's working USB input within 5 days (pulsing dp and no sound). My replacement Opera has different symptoms (solid dp light but no sound) but the DAC still seems to have to be reset from time to time. I have been trying to make sure itunes or my Mac USB firmware isn't my cause. The mac is brand new so it is up to date on firmware.

 

[dmk005]

Quote:

Originally Posted by khbaur330162 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I thought optical->electrical conversion was a very large source of jitter to begin with? Wouldn't having to output the digital signal form your computer to an external DAC via optical cabling sort of defeat the purpose of using a computer? (Of course unless it was for convenience) From the article I got the impression that computers had the edge of being able to read and REREAD the data, therefore decreasing the chance of unread/misread bits of data, but if the system is actually creating jitter issues in the long-run, where does this inherent superior performance lie? Also, I thought power supplies for PC's were horridly unclean due to -what looks to be fabled- interference from components within the PC... I mean, if I hook up a set of headphones to my headphone out on my home computer I can hear like a slight hum that is only present when the CAN is lit up, or en train of being repeatedly lit up, meaning some process is being run using up the computer's RAM, correct? What is that hum? Finally, I would commend Steve Nugent for writing such an informative article, perhaps even praising him for how well he wrote it, but I'm sure it'd simply be a slap in the face to have some 18 year old acting like some sort of critic, nodding in approval of his essay. So I'll simply leave it at that article made me severely question my current medium of music, and that I'd definitely like to see articles delving, perhaps, further into the depths of PC audio. I don't know much about the subject, so these questions may be noobish, but I'd like to see some one write about PC audio playback dipping past simply redbook. Can PC's rip SACD's or DVD-A's? If so, can they send it to an external DAC w/o being encrypted? This, SACD support, is something that no current trasnport + external DAC solution has ever really touched, right?

I suggest you re-read Steve's article because much of what you wrote is in direct conflict with Steve's observations/opinions. Also, I have not heard anyone suggest listening to their PC/Mac directly via stock headphone out/sound card jacks.

 

[khbaur330162]

I think there's a level of misunderstanding. After I wrote that post I too thought some of my questions might have been answered within the article so I did reread it. What I thought might be "in conflict" with his article was the jitter issue caused by optical->electrical conversion which would set PC's a few steps back when considering it as a full blown source, at least in my eyes. Steve N. seems to somewhat agree saying optical isn't the best solution. (He says USB/Firewire is superior to any other current method of data transfer for this application) However, this doesn't stop many people from using external DAC's with their PC's via optical connection. I was simply asking if this jitter that could potentially be caused by the optical conversion process could undermine the exacting precision of bit perfect output by the PC, and if so, why so many people still used this method. Was this answered in the article? I may have to read it a 3rd time.

I'm interested because I plan on getting a Macbook for college and was trying to gather funds for a DAC with optical in. I don't want to shoot myself in the foot, you know?

I don't use my computer as source, and do not have an external DAC or audiophile-grade sound card. Therefore whenever I need to listen to music or watch a video off my computer I'm either plugging straight into the headphone out on the face of the computer, or outputting that to my stereo with in-built headphone amplifier. Both have this hum and I'm not exactly sure what the cause is. Does anyone here know what might be sourcing this hum? I'm thinking it's caused by a slightly underpowered sound card because it's only audible when the computer is "thinking."

I skimmed the article and couldn't find anything on SACD or Super Audio CD's or any combination of the wording. Are you sure he discussed this? I don't recall reading anything on it and can't seem to find mention of it.

Edit: An interesting experiment would be to compare the digital out of a mid-fi CDP to a source file ripped off a CD using EAC. If the argument that CDP's misread large amounts of data, or at least have the potential to, could we not test this? We could even let trucks drive by to see how they affect a CDP's performance.

 

[jenghanHsieh]

I always think

- the DAC as a symphony orchestra, playing a score in 16 bits per page.

- the 'transport' is like the boy/girl who flip the score for the musicians.

- the DA process is like the actual performing of the orchestra, every note should be played accurately and 'to the spec' for good quality.

as long as the score can reach the performer in time, without missing a single
note ( bit ), which must be simple for now, rest is up to the quality of the DA and analog circuit...

(correct me if I'm wrong.)

 

[sejarzo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by khbaur330162 /img/forum/go_quote.gif .......Therefore whenever I need to listen to music or watch a video off my computer I'm either plugging straight into the headphone out on the face of the computer, or outputting that to my stereo with in-built headphone amplifier. Both have this hum and I'm not exactly sure what the cause is. Does anyone here know what might be sourcing this hum? I'm thinking it's caused by a slightly underpowered sound card because it's only audible when the computer is "thinking."

Some internal soundcards seem to be much more susceptible to picking up various interferences inside the machine. My AV710 had a bit of that--with nothing playing, and the volume up high, there was a combination of continous slight hiss plus a low hum, and some intermittent, variable buzzy/"zippy"/squeaky noise.

My notebook's internal sound acts as if there is some sort of electrical connection to the hard drive.....it picks up a huge amount of noise that coincides exactly with flashes of the hard drive LED.

Some folks have great luck with some of the higher end E-MU, RME, etc. internal cards that apparently are designed to better reject interference.

 

[zirgated]

Quote:

Originally Posted by khbaur330162 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Can PC's rip SACD's or DVD-A's? If so, can they send it to an external DAC w/o being encrypted?

Yes, though it would be a very difficult process to rip an SACD, and it may not be possible to do it bit perfectly.

A DVD-A is very easy to rip; the hard part is decoding the data if it's encrypted or compressed with MLP (a proprietary lossless compression format made for DVD-A).

DVD-A's support decent encryption - however, that doesn't help if you have the keys for it.

There are some modifications for WinDVD that allow you to decrypt the data and uncompress MLP; there are also some easier (and faster) ways to unencrypt and/or decompress DVD-A's.

If the disc doesn't have a key that WinDVD is using, you won't be able to decrypt it by that method.

Thread that lead to much of this.

EDIT: Commercial hardware hack to add digital (SPDIF) outputs to SACD and DVD-A players; not bit perfect for SACD (PCM output, SACD is DSD)

 

[dmk005]

Quote:

Originally Posted by khbaur330162 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think there's a level of misunderstanding. After I wrote that post I too thought some of my questions might have been answered within the article so I did reread it. What I thought might be "in conflict" with his article was the jitter issue caused by optical->electrical conversion which would set PC's a few steps back when considering it as a full blown source, at least in my eyes. Steve N. seems to somewhat agree saying optical isn't the best solution. (He says USB/Firewire is superior to any other current method of data transfer for this application) However, this doesn't stop many people from using external DAC's with their PC's via optical connection. I was simply asking if this jitter that could potentially be caused by the optical conversion process could undermine the exacting precision of bit perfect output by the PC, and if so, why so many people still used this method. Was this answered in the article? I may have to read it a 3rd time. I'm interested because I plan on getting a Macbook for college and was trying to gather funds for a DAC with optical in. I don't want to shoot myself in the foot, you know? I don't use my computer as source, and do not have an external DAC or audiophile-grade sound card. Therefore whenever I need to listen to music or watch a video off my computer I'm either plugging straight into the headphone out on the face of the computer, or outputting that to my stereo with in-built headphone amplifier. Both have this hum and I'm not exactly sure what the cause is. Does anyone here know what might be sourcing this hum? I'm thinking it's caused by a slightly underpowered sound card because it's only audible when the computer is "thinking." I skimmed the article and couldn't find anything on SACD or Super Audio CD's or any combination of the wording. Are you sure he discussed this? I don't recall reading anything on it and can't seem to find mention of it. Edit: An interesting experiment would be to compare the digital out of a mid-fi CDP to a source file ripped off a CD using EAC. If the argument that CDP's misread large amounts of data, or at least have the potential to, could we not test this? We could even let trucks drive by to see how they affect a CDP's performance.

Didn't mean to be cold with my response to your questions. You are right, Steve's article didn't address all of your questions.
I think this thread (which I call a primer on DACs) may be more instructive for your questions:
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=225363