Cables.
Aug 19, 2018 at 7:21 PM Post #62 of 140
I find this tread to be laughable--some people must have tin ears! If your equipment is good enough, high quality audiophile cables matter. It is generally accepted by a large majority of audiophiles that a difference can be heard between cheap cables and high quality audiophile cables due to more signal losses, etc. in the cheap cables.

Everything in the signal chain matters!
 
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Aug 19, 2018 at 11:58 PM Post #63 of 140
I find this tread to be laughable--some people must have tin ears! If your equipment is good enough, high quality audiophile cables matter. It is generally accepted by a large majority of audiophiles that a difference can be heard between cheap cables and high quality audiophile cables due to more signal losses, etc. in the cheap cables.

Everything in the signal chain matters!


Congratulations! You’re batting 1.000 in regurgitating audiophile cable fallacies. “Tin ears”, “not having good enough equipment”, “generally accepted by audiophiles”, “signal loss in cheap cables”, “etc”. Wow, that’s quite a paragraph of misinformation. Not to mention necroing a decade old thread to make that post.

Unfortunately, in this subforum and this subforum alone, subjective opinions are insufficient unless backed up with objective evidence. Do yourself a favor and try taking a properly controlled blind test - you’ll save yourself enough money to buy better transducers or more music rather than investing in placebo.

If the difference is as large as you claim, with the assumption that the cables you test aren’t fundamentally flawed, you should have no trouble identifying the “audiophile cable” in a controlled test. The problem is, no one ever successfully identifies cables in these tests because building an audibly transparent cable is trivially easy.
 
Aug 20, 2018 at 8:49 AM Post #64 of 140
The old saw "Either your equipment sucks or you're deaf" is only surpassed in obliviousness by "Even my wife can hear the difference!"
 
Aug 20, 2018 at 9:07 AM Post #65 of 140
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I like cables, some more than others.
 
Aug 20, 2018 at 1:21 PM Post #66 of 140
Congratulations! You’re batting 1.000 in regurgitating audiophile cable fallacies. “Tin ears”, “not having good enough equipment”, “generally accepted by audiophiles”, “signal loss in cheap cables”, “etc”. Wow, that’s quite a paragraph of misinformation. Not to mention necroing a decade old thread to make that post.

Unfortunately, in this subforum and this subforum alone, subjective opinions are insufficient unless backed up with objective evidence. Do yourself a favor and try taking a properly controlled blind test - you’ll save yourself enough money to buy better transducers or more music rather than investing in placebo.

If the difference is as large as you claim, with the assumption that the cables you test aren’t fundamentally flawed, you should have no trouble identifying the “audiophile cable” in a controlled test. The problem is, no one ever successfully identifies cables in these tests because building an audibly transparent cable is trivially easy.

Reading your response it seems I have hit a nerve. Double blind tests can be flawed, and your arguments don't change my view about the best audiophile cables compared to cheap cables. I would suggest you research and listen to the better WireWorld cables. They have a design rooted in science. I base my view on clearly hearing the better natural timbre of acoustic instruments using Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC vs. a cheap cable. My musically trained ears (I have a BA in Music) tell me this is not an imaginary placebo effect.
 
Aug 20, 2018 at 2:29 PM Post #67 of 140
Reading your response it seems I have hit a nerve. Double blind tests can be flawed, and your arguments don't change my view about the best audiophile cables compared to cheap cables. I would suggest you research and listen to the better WireWorld cables. They have a design rooted in science. I base my view on clearly hearing the better natural timbre of acoustic instruments using Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC vs. a cheap cable. My musically trained ears (I have a BA in Music) tell me this is not an imaginary placebo effect.

You called this subforum and thread laughable and proceeded to spout the usual BS posted by cable aficionados who can't actually support their claims. What kind of reaction were you expecting after insulting the readers of this forum?

This is the Sound Science subforum - either post some sort of evidence that two properly constructed cables sound different (to humans, not whales, bats, or whalebats) or accept the reality that your subjective opinions are in no way based on the known science involved. Show some measurements that indicate the Wireworld (or any other cable) is audibly different to humans or take an ABX test and post the results. Spend your money how you like, but don't expect your "views" to change opinions here without supporting evidence. There is a Cables subsection in HF if you want to post subjective opinions. You should head there as the reality is, you can't back up your claims with objective evidence. Your BA in music and refusal to accept that as a human, you're susceptible to the placebo effect is no substitute for the engineering in play here. Ever wonder why none of the "audiophile" cable manufacturers participate in blind testing or show measurements indicating audible differences in their cables? Because if they could, they would literally corner the cable market.

This will go the same way it always goes with magic cable proponents in sound science - you'll argue without evidence, proclaim your golden ears trump science, state "science doesn't know everything", claim "we can't measure what you hear", get angry, then eventually depart as you realize you can't support your claims and that no amount of flowery language and marketing spiel is an acceptable substitute for actual evidence.
 
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Aug 20, 2018 at 3:39 PM Post #69 of 140
You sound a little angry already.

No, just being direct as I'm tired of repeating the same discussion with yet another magic cable proponent who leads with insults but can't support their claims. I don't go into the Cables subforum and throw around insults and would like the same courtesy to be extended here.

Do you have anything to add to the discussion,or is this just your usual trolling?
 
Aug 20, 2018 at 4:36 PM Post #70 of 140
Shoot, this is sound science? Well then sorry I mistakenly posted here....there should be a red graphic background, or some nuclear warning symbol so folks can know
 
Aug 20, 2018 at 10:21 PM Post #71 of 140
Double blind tests can be flawed, and your arguments don't change my view about the best audiophile cables compared to cheap cables.

Why did I know that he was going to jump to the "tests are flawed" trope next? I am quite confident that he won't change his mind, no matter what evidence he's presented with. This has nothing to do with facts.
 
Aug 20, 2018 at 11:32 PM Post #72 of 140
@gregorio or @bigshot I forgot who it was. It was one of you two that posted a long time ago that one of you worked at a big record studio. The cables connected to the singer and the band members was a cheap audio able you can buy for cheap, that costed a few bucks per foot.

How helpful are these expensive audio cables able to help the common audiophiles achieve audio Nirvana when the recorded source just uses a standard cable? (Except for the shielded cables to protect from noise).

Kind of like a salesman selling a solution to a problem he's presenting to a customer, but the solution doesn't really solve the issue that's given. The customer buys this cable and goes onto headfi and starts asking in numerous threads to compare audio cables.

Path 1 :pPeople start telling him he wasted his money because the more expensive cable allows more huger soundstage, accurate and detailed silky smooth mids and accurate treble that isn't heated or "razor sharp".
Customer regrets cable purchase and falls into an endless pit of buying and reading reviews and selling and buying in the endless hope of searching for audio Nirvana. Like running on a super fast treadmill in a desperate attempt to grab the chicken drumstick attached.

Path 2: Customer gets a pat on the back by his fellow cable friends. They each pat each other on the back with social validation that they spent thousands of dollars for a "ultra purity OCC Gold Plated Silver cable". They get drink tea together and get that validation that they have achieved audio Nirvana not knowing the very music they are listening was recorded in a record studio with just workhorse standard audio cables that cost a few bucks a foot attached to the microphones in a studio.
 
Aug 21, 2018 at 12:24 AM Post #73 of 140
Reading your response it seems I have hit a nerve. Double blind tests can be flawed, and your arguments don't change my view about the best audiophile cables compared to cheap cables. I would suggest you research and listen to the better WireWorld cables. They have a design rooted in science. I base my view on clearly hearing the better natural timbre of acoustic instruments using Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC vs. a cheap cable. My musically trained ears (I have a BA in Music) tell me this is not an imaginary placebo effect.
I already know what will happen soon.
A bunch of people and well known reviewers will be comparing that Wireworld Silver Eclipse cable pretty soon.
They will say "this cable punches above it's weight in gold. Compare to Wireworld Silver Eclipse. *Insert new company, new cable*, man there is a world of difference night and day! The timbre is excellent reproducing the very plucking of strings straight from the flamenco guitarist's fingers.

I can feel the acoustics bouncing off the guitar straight into my cables into my eardrums!!! Not only that! The soundstage is very much more airy and open compared to the congestion of the Silver Eclipse. It gives a nice fresh breath of air, not that I'm saying it's congested!!! Just compared to this cable the Eclipse sounds congested!! Are you sold on this??? Not just yet!! Hold on before you buy this cable... The mids punch above it's weight and are excellent compared to the Silver Eclipse. The male and female vocals of *insert artist here* are so lush and realistic and it feels like I'm actually there!!

If that doesn't convince you! The bass is incredibly well done, incredible quality with sufficient quantity. But not for bassheads, perfect for the common audiophiles like you and me! What are you doing reading this!? Sell your Silver Eclipse and buy this! It punches above it's weight and excels the silver Eclipse by a huge margin."

Watch everyone else follow along "man this cable is so much better. I definitely can hear a difference". Soon you too will upgrade and continuously buy new audio cables chasing Nirvana.
 
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Aug 21, 2018 at 2:50 AM Post #74 of 140
@gregorio or @bigshot I forgot who it was. It was one of you two that posted a long time ago that one of you worked at a big record studio. The cables connected to the singer and the band members was a cheap audio able you can buy for cheap, that costed a few bucks per foot.

Yeah, the chief engineer at the studio showed me a big spindle of monoprice cable that he used when he was wiring the place.
 
Aug 21, 2018 at 7:58 AM Post #75 of 140
Reading your response it seems I have hit a nerve. Double blind tests can be flawed, and your arguments don't change my view about the best audiophile cables compared to cheap cables. I would suggest you research and listen to the better WireWorld cables. They have a design rooted in science. I base my view on clearly hearing the better natural timbre of acoustic instruments using Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC vs. a cheap cable. My musically trained ears (I have a BA in Music) tell me this is not an imaginary placebo effect.
the issue here is that your argument is vaguely about objective reasons that you don't explain(based on what you said so far, @bfreedma most likely knows a lot more than you do about wires and electricity, so venture there at your own risks), and about a subjective anecdote which is not typically what convinces people about universal claims like yours. in the very best situation, once you have properly tested and demonstrated that 2 given cables sound different(something you haven't done here), you're still very far from having demonstrated that we benefit audibly from throwing big bucks at cables. which is your main opinion/claim.
also personally, when I see you discussing cables in general, and not specifying the specs of gears at both ends of the cable, my first thought tends to be "yup, he doesn't have a clue about what's going on in an electrical circuit". it can just be that you forgot to specify a few things, or that you're so very sure about being right that you talk matter of factly, but bad argumentation is rarely convincing.

next you argue that you know you've heard a difference. and also argue that blind tests can be flawed. true enough but then how do you confirm anything if not through a better blind test? you measure the improvement? if so we'd love it if you shared your data even if it's anecdotal it's still objective and hopeful correct data. but if your belief comes ultimately from misguided self confidence under sighted experiences, then to me and a core group of this section, your experience cannot and will not be significant. maybe you heard a difference, maybe not, I'll never believe you either way because you have no control to actually confirm any of your impressions as coming from sound and not from your fake test full of biases. it's a problem we absolutely need to address before going further. if we can't agree on a testing method, the rest is a waste of time for us all. we won't agree on the results, we won't agree on the interpretation of the results, it's all pointless.

I know that cables can have an audible impact for fairly typical reasons or usage conditions. I wouldn't use an IEM cable for my power line, I also wouldn't use a 50meter USB cable. they don't satisfy the standards for their respective use. engineers work hard to achieve stability and consistency, and that sometimes requires plugging a cable following a specific standard. other times the input and output of the gears have an order of magnitude or more between them in impedance and the signal is of such amplitude that RFI or other things like going from a 0.02ohm cable to a 1ohm cable would only barely register on a measurement rig, and completely fail to create an audible change. ultimately we're dealing with an electrical circuit and a cable is one more component in the circuit. a passive component aimed at having as little impact as possible, so most of the time, that's how much impact a cable will have. as little as possible. improving upon that, when we can, is obviously not going to make a big difference. at least so long as we don't try to mess up the specs on purpose.
and here is my issue, where is the law stating that more money gets me a cable closer to ideal specs? you seem convinced about that, but why? I've certainly seen anecdotes with cheap cables being crap that shouldn't be used. but I've also seen anecdotes of really expensive "audiophile" cables being way out of spec. and I've heard obvious differences on occasion from switching cables(in blind tests), but I also have many instances where I couldn't pass a blind test between 2 cables so long as they didn't create a noticeable volume change(or if I managed to volume match my little test). so I strongly disagree that anecdotal experience should be what we use to make our mind about cables in general. basically I disagree because it's a logical fallacy. I could come up with any conclusion I want about cables if all it takes is a random anecdote and some cherry picked correlation like price and "signal loss".
 

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