[JRG1990]

The test results clearly show a audiable around 3db peak at 2khz (midrange), this can be percieved as more forward mids, more detailed mids not tighter bass or brighter treble where is all this coming from?.
 
Also the test isn't really that scientific, that microphone can pick up any background noise, heavy breathing, footsteps, noises outside, cars , dogs etc, also placement is really important if the mic or headphones were accidentally knocked it would also effect the results.
 
Also it's not really a test of what a difference silver has on sound, the cables in your amp are copper, the headphonejack and 3.5mm plug are brass or goldplated brass, then the silver headphone cable , then the headphones voice coil which is a good length of around 30awg+ copper , speakers have a good few metres of copper to make up there voice coil I don't know about headphones.
 
So the conclusion of this test is that the silver wire in the middle has some magic effect that isn't undone by copper or brass, If anything the results are probley caused by the resistance of the cable, but I doubt sennheiser would pick a cable thats too high in resistance, other reason could be a poorly designed amp that makes the resistance of the cable an important factor.
 
 

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Quote:

BECAUSE THEY ARE the Brightest wire in audio....
 
I use My EARS, and feel sorry for the ones that can't hear any difference.   I don't need test graphs......and since this isn't in the Sound Science Forum I'll just say IMO... ( I've been told in a Sound Science Forum)  you can't have an opinion....... Yea Right!................. Plus I'm not pushing anything!

 


Quote:

Cable believers believe all cables sound a little different, non believers say this is not so. Finding an extreme like what cable believers hear in copper vs silver makes sense as more sonic contrast to graph out. A better test would be to have cables made which are the same minus the conductors. We need to reduce the variables. The great part though is cable non believers believe that terminations have no influence either. Cable believers believe a sonic change can be created due to the construction of the RCAs. 


 

No, non believers say why do you hear a difference, when others do not? They have looked to see what the reason for that is and so far have found no consitently measurable or explainable cause inherant in the cable caused by the way it is made or what it is made of.

 

[jageur272]

Quote:

 
Because it is the driver/speaker that is reacting to the signal. Of course it is not rigorous, but it is a start. We have had what many consider proof of a k701 headphone sounding different after a break-in period tested in a way much like this. 

Well, what you're trying to measure is the differences that the cables make, correct?  So, you measure the HD650 with copper cable vs HD650 with silver cable.  Subtract all of the same components to minimize possible error when setting each individual component up.  You're left with simply the cables, right?  When you're testing things, you want to simplify what you're testing to maximize controls and instead have only one set of IV's.  By including the headphone -> mic setup, you have many more IV's depending on placement, surrounding noise, mic FR, preamp FR, etc.  Ideally, you'd want to measure just the cables.  The driver should react exactly the same as the signal that a scope would pick up.  Any other reactions are due to the internal wiring and driver deficiencies.

Quote:

 

Maybe because I can't listen to a scope?? ...and I also don't own one. 

 
 
I want to know what I'm hearing that is different with my HD650's, not a scope. Correlating FR to human perception is hard enough as it is, correlating readouts on a scope to sound quality?? I don't see what the point would be. The arguments using a scope would be that it's far more sensitive than my ear is, the "objective" crowd has an excuse for everything you know? ;-p

 
You also can't listen to a cable .  Human perception of sound is so dependent on so many other factors that using human judgement for objective measurements is always a terrible idea.  When I'm angry, I like my music louder and bassier.  When I chill out and get back into my car, I'm shocked as to why I was listening to my music that loudly.  Thus, sound quality is entirely on a subjective and individual basis.  Correlating differences that cables make regarding how they change the signal is not subjective.  It is easily measured and can easily be reproduced.   Don't fall prey to the simple stuff
 
Regardless, I'm really impressed with what you're striving for here, just trying to idealize the methodolgy.

 

[buddyboy1]

Very interesting results! 
 
What was the silver wire used? Or where did you buy it?

 

[cheapskateaudio]

 
Quote:

Very interesting results! 
 
What was the silver wire used? Or where did you buy it?

I bought the wire from an online jewelry supply store. If you buy it from one be sure to ask for it to be spooled, it helps A LOT. lol. Anyway, I got 99.9% pure fine silver wire, dead soft, .65mm dia for the first cable. I have another cable (that broke unfortunately and needs to be re-soldered) that was made with twisted .32mm 99.9% pure silver wire. Both sound different to my ear, and the twisted cable is 1-2 decibels louder across the entire frequency range. I need to fix that one to do more tests with it.
 
Bottom line at the very least, I think I have proof that cables are *different* based on materials and construction. It almost seemed like even that was being denied in my first thread.
 
The bigger question is, does silver have any innate advantages that can't be overcome with a better designed copper cable?
 

 

[Steve Eddy]

Quote:

The bigger question is, does silver have any innate advantages that can't be overcome with a better designed copper cable?
 

All you really have is the slight difference in conductivity between copper and silver. Which ultimately means that all else being equal, the silver cable will have just a bit less resistance.
 
se
 

 

[Prog Rock Man]

What you posted originally is evidence but not yet proof. In the same way one blind test is evidence, a whole series of blind tests becomes proof.
 
I do think that a volume difference across the whole FR will explain why some cables sound better than others. Slightly louder sounds better throughout much of the volume range. But you not need to get a cable to adjust volume, you can do that with the volume pot.

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

 

I bought the wire from an online jewelry supply store. If you buy it from one be sure to ask for it to be spooled, it helps A LOT. lol. Anyway, I got 99.9% pure fine silver wire, dead soft, .65mm dia for the first cable. I have another cable (that broke unfortunately and needs to be re-soldered) that was made with twisted .32mm 99.9% pure silver wire. Both sound different to my ear, and the twisted cable is 1-2 decibels louder across the entire frequency range. I need to fix that one to do more tests with it.
 
Bottom line at the very least, I think I have proof that cables are *different* based on materials and construction. It almost seemed like even that was being denied in my first thread.
 
The bigger question is, does silver have any innate advantages that can't be overcome with a better designed copper cable?
 

What is the magnitude of the voltages carried - line level cables carry about 2V (give or take) I would imagine most headphones require rather less, the only other verifiable success of a DBT on cables I have seen used an un-equ'ed phono output and again very small voltages thsi may be a factor in the differences ??
 
 

 

[jageur272]

Quote:

 
Bottom line at the very least, I think I have proof that cables are *different* based on materials and construction. It almost seemed like even that was being denied in my first thread.
 
The bigger question is, does silver have any innate advantages that can't be overcome with a better designed copper cable?
 

Of course they would be different.  If I were to take an incredibly high purity copper insulated wire with a relatively small AWG, braid dozens of these wires together and use premium solder, the materials mean nothing.  Instead, I would have a cable with incredible capacitance and highly susceptible to picking up radio noise.  This capacitance could be high enough to roll freqs in the upper level of the audible spectrum which some people may make the sound "smooth".  Instead, they are listening to a super-expensive cable with low resistance, premium parts, and an incredibly flawed design.  What should be tested are cables of the same design but with different materials (once again echoing the need to minimize variations between the two subjects being compared).
 
Also, I wouldn't call this proof.  What you have is material that suggests a slight difference.  At what level do these differences become significant is also important, statistical errors can be found everywhere with the testing so far  What you need are higher resolution measurements, repeated results, proper testing methods, and many many MANY more trials for this testing to even be considered as proof.
 
The real question is: does silver have any innate advantages that can't be overcome with a copper cable of the same design.  Within realistic bounds (short [<6m] cable length, reasonable overall AWG of conductors, changes must be audible), I vote that there will be no measured differences assuming proper data capture.

 

[Head Injury]

Quote:

What is the magnitude of the voltages carried - line level cables carry about 2V (give or take) I would imagine most headphones require rather less, the only other verifiable success of a DBT on cables I have seen used an un-equ'ed phono output and again very small voltages thsi may be a factor in the differences ??

That's an interesting point. cheapskateaudio did say that
 

further testing at higher volumes (deafening) indicates that the curves start to merge together as volume goes up.

 
If the differences only manifest themselves at low voltages, then low impedance, high sensitivity headphones would be most affected. That would be consistent with the large number of people who claim differences between IEM cables, but occasionally inconsistent with those who claim that high-end headphones reveal more differences (as most (but not all) high-end headphones are harder to drive).
 
This would be something worth looking into. I'd like to see a demonstration of repeatability for the first tests first though 

 

[Sganzerla]

 Good work man, I'd like to see someone try this with a stock dac/amp unit and another one with plenty of time.
I tried this once and the results were rather shocking (at least for my non believer friend).

 

[Wapiti]

 
Quote:

    . . . does silver have any innate advantages that can't be overcome with a copper cable of the same design.  Within realistic bounds (short [<6m] cable length, reasonable overall AWG of conductors, changes must be audible), I vote that there will be no measured differences assuming proper data capture.

 
This is indeed the relevant issue.  I agree there will be no difference between silver and copper, nor between cable geometries of reasonable design.
 
It is striking how in a hobby based on the creations of science, science is readily and routinely both ignored and held highly suspect.

 

[lee730]

Quote:

not sure if those small differences in FR can be noticeable by ear. I'd have to try it, but maybe a moth can.
given the benefit of doubt, I find hard to believe that silver cables ALWAYS changes the sound for good.

I can't disagree with you at all on this one james. Silver cable  can potentially ruin a pair of headphones/IEMs depending on synergy. If you found there to be enough treble as is then using silver cable is not a good idea as it increases treble quantity and presence.

 

[Head Injury]

Quote:

I can't disagree with you at all on this one james. Silver cable  can potentially ruin a pair of headphones/IEMs depending on synergy. If you found there to be enough treble as is then using silver cable is not a good idea as it increases treble quantity and presence.

Not according to the only graphs that show any differences at all.
 
It's so sad that there's finally the potential for some scientific analysis of real cable differences, but all the believers have to crap on it with more pseudoscience and subjective impressions. You're shooting yourself in the foot.

 

[lee730]

Quote:

That's an interesting point. cheapskateaudio did say that
 
 
If the differences only manifest themselves at low voltages, then low impedance, high sensitivity headphones would be most affected. That would be consistent with the large number of people who claim differences between IEM cables, but occasionally inconsistent with those who claim that high-end headphones reveal more differences (as most (but not all) high-end headphones are harder to drive).
 
This would be something worth looking into. I'd like to see a demonstration of repeatability for the first tests first though 

I gotta agree with you on this as well. I think the significance of the change in sound signature depends on how sensitive the IEM/headphones are. The silver cable affected my IE8s quite significantly and they are very prone to hiss as well. When I put on high gain on my UHA4 the IE8s hiss like no tomorrow.