You don't seem to understand the difference between proof and evidence. What we have here is very strong evidence, but in no way is it proof. I'm not saying he has, and I honestly doubt it, but for all we know he fudged the results himself in order to make it seem more convincing than it is, or maybe the testing method was fundamentally flawed.
Now, I in no way mean to insult the OP, as it appears he has taken time and energy into making this happen, but it's simply the way science works - things need to be easily repeatable and have similar results in subsequent tests by different people. Once we have a big enough pool of evidence it can start to make its way towards being a so-called "fact." But a single test by a single person quite honestly is not enough to "prove" anything.
I would however be quite willing to accept the results no matter what they are. I'm simply being a skeptic, not a denier, so please don't misunderstand.
Yes, DaBomb77766
In an early post a page back and above, I question why this was never seen before now. I agree it does not prove a thing. I guess when I was in my days of playing with pure silver cables the sound was so different to my ears it seemed it could be recorded in real life like a bird recording in nature and shown clearly delineated on graph paper. I do understand the scientific process and realize that in relation to the past tests something big like this involves numerous testing by a group and findings put together before a result can be believed.
not sure if those small differences in FR can be noticeable by ear. I'd have to try it, but maybe a moth can.
given the benefit of doubt, I find hard to believe that silver cables ALWAYS changes the sound for good.
Opinions about the test and all the follow up post state some interesting comments, but, JamesMcProgger last sentence says it all and is the truth! A truth that we all should hear and know by now if we've been in audio for any length of time and have built or worked with builders who know that SILVER DOESN'T ALWAYS CHANGE THE SOUND FOR THE GOOD.. If you have a piece of audio gear or even headphones that have the reputation or graphs showing a "Tipped up Treble" any one with any sense wouldn't use silver wiring or cables.... That's just the facts and like I said above most of us should know this and be able to hear the difference...... What the OP shows in his test/graphs is true but like I said several of my audiophile friends (including my equipment builder Chris Ivan) have proved in blind test what cable was silver and what cable wasn't...... When Chris was building my custom tube phono stage I said I want the best silver wire used in this "Baby" his answer back to me was I'll use it where it's needed, period. I guess my ramblings don't have a lot to do with the OP but I thought for most of us (cables/wire makes a difference) believers JamesProgger last sentence hits the nail on the head....For those non cable believers you can just keep using your lamp cords
If you have a piece of audio gear or even headphones that have the reputation or graphs showing a "Tipped up Treble" any one with any sense wouldn't use silver wiring or cables.... That's just the facts
cheapskate's tests showed almost no difference between the cables above 4 kHz, and no difference above 5 kHz. Why are you continuing to push this "silver cables are trebly and bright" misnomer as fact?
Heck, the only evidence for any difference shows no difference in the treble!
cheapskate's tests showed almost no difference between the cables above 4 kHz, and no difference above 5 kHz. Why are you continuing to push this "silver cables are trebly and bright" misnomer as fact?
Heck, the only evidence for any difference shows no difference in the treble!
You're just looking at the fr's and not the rest of the data... The rest of the data is dang conclusive imo.. But only if it's repeatable..
Remember this is a garbage mic the op is using and not one for hi level recording (and/or remastering) However, as long as is it repeatable test, it should (theoretically) be there.
For all we know the other cable used in the test could be left and and the silver one right. In a stereo mix a different channel could give the end results like we see unknown to the tester. That is just another variable in putting a microphone in front of a headphone driver. I read that there is more information about this single test but somehow posted elsewhere in Head-Fi.
I have never done any of this testing with audio but I am finding it very interesting to read about. I feel that graphs like these will, if there is proof of cable differences, be the key. For me it really gets me involved just like the OP as I fully heard a reduction in bass with silver cables. In his system he is hearing it as a tuning of the bass and clean-up of the bass. With my system, the silver cables took most of the bass out. My system is very responsive in the treble area so I ended up using copper. When I ended up in Head-Fi to read that none of this has ever been proved and that two camps existed, it was amazing to me.
I do feel we will see an answer in our lifetimes. I will except it when it arrives.
What's the rest? And what does it have to do with treble? The sine waves look cool, but they're altered by a fraction of a decibel. There's no telling how audible that is. And they weren't measured in the treble.
<snip> we're all grateful for his efforts so far. It's a great start. But one test does not a theory make, and since cheapskate here seems to be the only believer willing to test his cables, we have to make demands of him. No one else will listen.
cheapskate's tests showed almost no difference between the cables above 4 kHz, and no difference above 5 kHz. Why are you continuing to push this "silver cables are trebly and bright" misnomer as fact?
Heck, the only evidence for any difference shows no difference in the treble!
I use My EARS, and feel sorry for the ones that can't hear any difference. I don't need test graphs......and since this isn't in the Sound Science Forum I'll just say IMO... ( I've been told in a Sound Science Forum) you can't have an opinion....... Yea Right!................. Plus I'm not pushing anything!
I use My EARS, and feel sorry for the ones that can't hear any difference. I don't need test graphs......and since this isn't in the Sound Science Forum I'll just say IMO... ( I've been told in a Sound Science Forum) you can't have an opinion....... Yea Right!................. Plus I'm not pushing anything!
My goal is 100% to determine what is really happening with the silver cables. This is all in the spirit of discovery, and an attempt to explain just why so many swear they can hear the difference.
I do agree that what silver cables do is not always 100% good, but one of the #1 things I hear is smoother reproduction of fine details. A snare drum which has some rattle and hiss to it with the copper cables just sounds smoother with the silver cables. It's hard to explain in words, it just sounds less ragged!
There is more to it than raw FR. There is increased control. This can produce subtle but noticeable differences. Again, part of it IS psychological. When the listener hears that the sound has moved ever so slightly towards being more "real", in a subjective sense the difference is night & day, while in an objective sense the difference is a tiny % value.
My main point in doing this first test wasn't to show the audibility, the rightness, or the rhyme or reason behind what is happening, it was simply to show that there is a repeatable, measurable, difference. For future tests I will attempt to answer one or two of those questions.
There is more to it than raw FR. There is increased control. This can produce subtle but noticeable differences. Again, part of it IS psychological. When the listener hears that the sound has moved ever so slightly towards being more "real", in a subjective sense the difference is night & day, while in an objective sense the difference is a tiny % value.
There's not enough evidence here to convince me of "increased control", at least not audibly. You have good data, but don't use it to jump to conclusions. Gather more data about the effects. Build on the sine wave measurements. Show they're repeatable and track down why they look like that and if it's audible.
The one thing I see as great with this test is that the OP used a driver at the other end of the cables. Even if there is undocumented changes in the signal in the cables, we maybe could see a result with the driver motor reacting one way with the stock cables and another way with the silver. The driver at the end of the chain is truly the only reality as in all of our tests at hearing silver vs copper we had a driver reproducing music weather it be in speakers or in small headphone speakers.
There is also this grand relationship between treble and bass. Less treble and more bass revealed, more bass and less treble revealed. Not to mention the mids and all the places they can be placed. With this factor in the graphs just less bass seems like more treble. I am also not the best graph reader but it would be cool to see the relationship between three cables with the same test equipment. One would have what the cable believer thought was more bass, one with more treble and one all all around performer just to get some reference.
Even if we are in the end able to test for cable metal components and construction I think that the whole sound stage response will be the very last thing to be verified. So even if we found ways to not only test cables and the character of amps and sources the sound stage character will be even more subtle.
My goal is 100% to determine what is really happening with the silver cables. This is all in the spirit of discovery, and an attempt to explain just why so many swear they can hear the difference.
I do agree that what silver cables do is not always 100% good, but one of the #1 things I hear is smoother reproduction of fine details. A snare drum which has some rattle and hiss to it with the copper cables just sounds smoother with the silver cables. It's hard to explain in words, it just sounds less ragged!
There is more to it than raw FR. There is increased control. This can produce subtle but noticeable differences. Again, part of it IS psychological. When the listener hears that the sound has moved ever so slightly towards being more "real", in a subjective sense the difference is night & day, while in an objective sense the difference is a tiny % value.
My main point in doing this first test wasn't to show the audibility, the rightness, or the rhyme or reason behind what is happening, it was simply to show that there is a repeatable, measurable, difference. For future tests I will attempt to answer one or two of those questions.
Appreciate the way you're approaching this (and truly giving it your best effort). I call what you described 'an increased frame rate' to the music. ~That is my god it's much more clear... (weather shielding or geometry type, or raw material quality or dielectric The thing that's silly is we all hear the same thing... without prior communication. I think fr does not explain it enough..
(shown in every graph plainly but your fr, because it can't be shown in fr. Fr is frequency response, not frequency refreshment. And CSD is a form of frequency speed/decay, not a direct form of frequency refreshment the headphone receives. (i.e current that tells the driver how many times to reflect a certain charge. (i.e note)
I think that to frame this as a copper vs. silver issue is rather misleading, because as far as I've been able to determine, you're not comparing two cables that are in every way identical except for the material used for the conductors.
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