[voxr3m]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shunyata /img/forum/go_quote.gif Maybe the cable grounding is on one side?

If there was an explanation, that would probably be it.

 

[circularlogic]

Quote:

These are all great theories and they have some sort of magical logic, but rather than thinking of an explanation, you should be trying to figure out whether a signal can really be transmitted more accurately through braided metal one direction as opposed to another. I don't think you are going to find any evidence that it does.

Though the skepticism is welcome to a degree, to dismiss very well documented and verified models of physics as "magical logic" is a bit uncalled for. Dielectric effects aside, and simply looking at electron propagation through a conductor, simple things such as heat, and even mechanical vibration (both sort of the same thing) can effect electron transport properties. I am a student, and will make no claim to be able to effectively argue my point beyond what I'm saying now, however it is *clear* that rather subtle things effect how "accurately" a signal is propagated. All substances have a dielectric constant that will attenuate the signal. Treat this dielectric as a rather simple (to first order, and even then rather incomplete, I admit) model of dipoles and it should be plausible that they will tend to align themselves in the way minimizes the Lorentz forces on each of the dipoles while a current is flowing. Reverse the direction of current flow, and the obvious happens, the Lorentz forces are once again great, and the dipoles will try to minimize the energy through realignment.

I made no claim that these effects are large, and whether or not they are actually audible is most definitely questionable. HOWEVER, the OP made an observation and asked for any possible reason there may be a difference, since he observed one. You are welcome to believe that these things make no audible difference, however to claim that there can be NO difference on an absolute scale is simply a fallacy. I simply am putting forth, to the best of my knowledge, any reason that may exist for what the OP has observed - "magic" aside.

 

[SysteX]

Quote:

Originally Posted by circularlogic /img/forum/go_quote.gif I profess no knowledge nor expertise, but I believe (keyword here), that it may be primarily due to the dielectric properties. [snip] EDIT: Sorta like how some electrolytic capacitors are polar? Maybe?

Electrolytic capacitors are polarity-specific because the dielectric membrane will be destroyed by a redox reaction if it is used backwards. If this is the reason that cables have a directionality, it would mean that they too would be ruined if used "backwards".

Perhaps it has to do with the cable's shielding. If it's a properly shielded IC with the shield connected to ground only at one end of the cable, maybe it makes a difference which side is connected to the source and which side is connected to the amp.

 

[circularlogic]

Hmm, I'm pretty sure the redox reaction only applies to the dielectric used inside the electrolytic caps. Not all dipoles "destroy themselves" if they flip polarity.

What I meant (I think! hah) however was similar, even though the cap will distroy itself (make holes in the dielectric such that voltage can arc across the plates of a cap), the effect would be more subtle (less dramatic, certainly) when applied to a conductor.

However, all of this dielectric stuff aside, the grounding thing really does seem simpler (and more plausible to cause audible differences)!

 

[cotdt]

circularlogic, I can imagine your idea applying to DC, but would it also apply to the AC signal that is your music?

One possible reason might be the way the grounds and shields are handled. Some interconnects have the shields grounded on one end and this usually is the source. If you hooked the cable up the other way the load will supply the shield ground. The affect of shielding on the sound is definate, but hard to predict.

Edit: SysteX beat me to it...

 

[unclejr]

Ok, I asked a reputable audio cable manufacturer about some of these questions because I find this stuff highly amusing intellectually.

When asked about this directionality, I found it interesting to note explicitly that the company's representative believed that no cable mfg had a scientific measurement of directionality but that they must listen to a sample from each bundle of cable in order to ascertain its directionality. Thus this is a highly human process that is subject to plenty of error (arguably moreso than a more controllable process) and would affect entire stocks of cable manufactured at a particular time.

The company rep suspected that the directionality thus comes from the grain and crystal structure (sic) of the conductor material itself, and is a quality inherent in the conductor prior to burn-in.

So the natural question to follow is regarding burn-in. Of course he wouldn't be much of a rep if he denied burn-in, I suspect, and rightly so he believes that the interplay of energy loss from the conductor to the dielectric insulation and the subsequent either loss as heat or reflection back onto the conductor is the primary effect of burn-in. Over time this energy exchange and the subsequent delay of absorption and reflection settles down, to a perceivably audible level.

How much of this do I believe? And let me just state that this is a matter of belief in the sense that I don't take any of this stuff at face value, yet I thought it could contribute to the discussion. Well, I certainly think it's plausible.

My materials science is however admittedly rusty, and I'd love to hear some more knowledgeable positions on whether or not the idea of asymmetry regarding conductor grain sounds like a reasonable idea.

 

[circularlogic]

Yeah, I admitted before the grounding thing does sound more plausible.

However, don't most audio signals ride on some DC anyways? Although, now that I'm thinking about it, if the dipoles are "free-ish" then any difference this may cause would me nearly inconsequential anyways, since the effect would remedy itself rather quickly.

 

[circularlogic]

As far as conductor grain goes, all I can figure (again, speculation) is that while "growing" the copper/silver/whatever crystal imperfections were introduced, and the lattice could have been trapped in a pseudo-stable potential wells, resulting in a non-optimal alignment of the basis atoms. This would create a pseudo (again with that word!) bias of the atoms I suppose, resulting in the grain they're talking about.

I know stuff of this sort happens in the manufacturing process of semiconductors, (where care is taken to prevent it, silicon is grown a layer at a time I think) I suppose it'd happen with normal conductors as well. (I also think resolving that issue is why so many 'modders' tout the benefits of cryo-treatments).

 

[unclejr]

Quote:

Originally Posted by circularlogic /img/forum/go_quote.gif As far as conductor grain goes, all I can figure (again, speculation) is that while "growing" the copper/silver/whatever crystal imperfections were introduced, and the lattice could have been trapped in a pseudo-stable potential wells, resulting in a non-optimal alignment of the basis atoms. This would create a pseudo (again with that word!) bias of the atoms I suppose, resulting in the grain they're talking about. I know stuff of this sort happens in the manufacturing process of semiconductors, (where care is taken to prevent it, silicon is grown a layer at a time I think) I suppose it'd happen with normal conductors as well. (I also think resolving that issue is why so many 'modders' tout the benefits of cryo-treatments).

While I agree with this, I don't think that these imperfections can explain directionality. It could affect the rest of the lattice, but my spidey sense (I've never actually seen Spiderman) tells me that there might be something inherent in the alignment of the slight dipole moments during the rapid cooling process of the cables that might serve to give this thing directionality. At least one of several clear criticisms of such a "back of the envelope" claim is that why then would the directionality not be at a random angle with respect to the length axis of the cable, and the sophomoric answer to this is for me to point toward the sky and say, "Look!" as I run away in the other direction.

Oh yeah, "grain" here isn't a dirty word, it's simply meant as "strand of conductor material." Not like treble grain.

PS silicon needs those holes to work, right!

 

[NiceCans]

If you consider that rubbing a magnet along a piece of metal in the same direction repeatedly will in time can cause magnetization, which is polar . . .

Then couldn't it be possible that the flow of electrons in the same direction over a period of time could cause some alignment that would influence tha ability of electron flow in a polar fashion?

After all, there is a strong inter-relationship between electricity and magnetism as they can each be used to produce the other.

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pageman99 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Just hooked up some new (to me) Kimber Heroes in my system the other day. I was disappointed in the sound. A bit fuzzy and no soundstage to speak of. I checked the cables and there was no directional arrows, but I figured I had nothing to lose and I flipped them around. Voila! Instant clarity, excellent instrument placement, yadda, yadda. Now my background is in Physics and I see no reason at all for this. The RCA jacks appeared to be the same on either end, cable is cable from either direction. I flipped them around a couple times just to be sure. The difference in sound quality was obvious. Why?????

it is quite simple actually. Most brands use at the source end shielding/grounding and not at the amp end of the cable! That's why some cables have directional or colourcoded tags on the cables. of course no cable has any direction perse!

It's all in the shielding/grounding of the cable, most of the time that way the cable sounds best.

You can see it if you screw open your plugs. At one end 3 wires and at the other only 2!

 

[sejarzo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NiceCans /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you consider that rubbing a magnet along a piece of metal in the same direction repeatedly will in time can cause magnetization, which is polar . . . Then couldn't it be possible that the flow of electrons in the same direction over a period of time could cause some alignment that would influence tha ability of electron flow in a polar fashion? After all, there is a strong inter-relationship between electricity and magnetism as they can each be used to produce the other.

Sorry, but in AC (and no one can deny that audio signals are AC) the flow of electrons/current is as much "backward" to the source as it is "forward" to the amplifier. There can be no net "directionality" of current flow!

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NiceCans /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you consider that rubbing a magnet along a piece of metal in the same direction repeatedly will in time can cause magnetization, which is polar . . . Then couldn't it be possible that the flow of electrons in the same direction over a period of time could cause some alignment that would influence tha ability of electron flow in a polar fashion? After all, there is a strong inter-relationship between electricity and magnetism as they can each be used to produce the other.

Nicecans, i like your kitty!

Well, there is a tweak and it costs about 12 euro's and that is a demagnetizing cd. YES, you have to play it for 3 minutes and i produces all kinds of sounds. Afterwards the system sounds fresh and really nice. You suppose to do this every week. It really works and is recommended even by serious audio magazines.

It's calles the Densen demagic demagnetizing disc.

copyright: highfidelitydiscs

 

[circularlogic]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sejarzo /img/forum/go_quote.gif Sorry, but in AC (and no one can deny that audio signals are AC) the flow of electrons/current is as much "backward" to the source as it is "forward" to the amplifier. There can be no net "directionality" of current flow!

I thought that most music signals rode on some DC? Hence capacative coupling? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[tourmaline]

I experimented extensively with cables, shielding and grounding and i can ya tell ya guys that i don't like grounding and shielding on signal cables and powercables.