Cable direction makes a difference. Why?
Aug 1, 2007 at 8:59 PM Post #31 of 61
Quote:

Originally Posted by circularlogic /img/forum/go_quote.gif
frown.gif
I thought that most music signals rode on some DC? Hence capacative coupling? Please correct me if I'm wrong.
confused.gif



Remember that we are not talking about dead-end streets here......for currents to flow there must be a return path, correct? No matter how much voltage you apply to one lead of a light bulb, you need to connect the other one back to the other side of the battery or AC source before it lights up.

Keep that in mind.........

Let's assume that we have a source driving a power amplifier, and that source does indeed have a DC offset at its output. That would not be a good thing, because the amp would multiply that offset by its gain, and pass that as a much higher DC current through the speakers/cans, heating up the voice coils, all sorts of bad effects.

How does one prevent that? With a blocking cap on the input of the power amp, in series with the signal. A cap will not pass DC, only AC.

If DC current can't flow past the input cap, it cannot flow out of the source, can it? Where would it "go", because its path to ground is blocked by the input cap? It cannot build up in the cable, right?

If the DC current cannot flow forward through the signal lead to the amp, no DC current can flow back through the ground side to the source. Meaning.......there is no net DC current flow through the loop with an input cap present.

The input cap cannot eliminate the voltage offset, but it can block the DC current flow.......sort of like turning off a faucet stops the water flow, but it doesn't make the static pressure in the supply pipe go to zero. The potential for flow is not eliminated, it's just blocked.

DC offset of a source output thus means only that there is a potential for a DC current to flow, if the balance of the circuit allows that.....and that cap prevents the flow.

There are DC servo designs that prevent that offset, too, so that an input coupling cap is not always needed.

Also, let's presume that a device does have a 30 mV DC offset (about ten times what many actually have). Let's first assume that means the signal lead at idle is 0.03V positive with respect to ground. The output stage of the device is works on a differential basis. A typical 2.0 Vrms full scale output means that the max voltages, if "centered" on true ground, would run from +2.85V to -2.85V. If there is an offset, that would mean the output voltage would vary from +2.88V to -2.82V......and that would allow a small "forward" current to exist. But what if the offset was still 30 mV but negative with respect to ground? The output signal would vary from +2.82V to -2.88V. The same offset would be said to exist, but the potential DC current flow would be in the opposite direction.

I'm not an expert on circuit design, but posts on various audio forums show that offsets are not necessarily just positive or negative with respect to ground, so the direction of any potential DC current flow would be a crap shoot. If that would be responsible for directionality of cables, then wouldn't you have to know that.....and attach the cable in the direction that was right for that particular case? Never heard of a manufacturer recommending that!
 
Aug 1, 2007 at 9:01 PM Post #32 of 61
Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I experimented extensively with cables, shielding and grounding and i can ya tell ya guys that i don't like grounding and shielding on signal cables and powercables.


You do mean "grounding the shield", correct?

Someone in another thread thought he was going to eliminate some problems by connecting only the signal lead between the pins on his RCA's and not connecting anything to the "ground" side of the RCA on one end...neither the shield nor the signal ground!

Sure would eliminate all hum or noise, along with all of the signal.......
 
Aug 1, 2007 at 9:36 PM Post #33 of 61
Quote:

I'm not an expert on circuit design, but posts on various audio forums show that offsets are not necessarily just positive or negative with respect to ground, so the direction of any potential DC current flow would be a crap shoot. If that would be responsible for directionality of cables, then wouldn't you have to know that.....and attach the cable in the direction that was right for that particular case? Never heard of a manufacturer recommending that!


Ah, thanks! That does make sense, but as far as capacative coupling goes, I was always under the impression that the dc needed a path to ground via a resistor so that it could flow (doesn't there have to be some dc current flowing?). However, your justification makes perfect sense, and the bias either positive or negative, and would be a terrible reason for why there may be directionality in cables. I appreciate your reply
smily_headphones1.gif
.
 
Aug 1, 2007 at 10:16 PM Post #34 of 61
if i do remember correctly, back in the day i had a pair of 15,000 rpm 16 gig scsi hard drives, (scsi ultra 160)

when i upgraded cases, from a mini-atx tower to a full size server tower, i had to get new cables, so i pulled some cables out of an old rackmount server, and although the cable was bi-terminated meaning one connection per end, it simply did not recognise the fact that i had hard drives connected until i took the cable out, and put it in the right way ( scsi cables of this age plugged in both ways)

by the way, the cables were in this other server for about 4 years, and it ran 24/7 in a business environment wich accessed the drives just about 24/7

i think maybe this is somewhat related.

simple anser to me is "break in of polarity"

<-- is not a physicist
 
Aug 1, 2007 at 11:05 PM Post #35 of 61
Quote:

Originally Posted by sejarzo /img/forum/go_quote.gif
You do mean "grounding the shield", correct?

Someone in another thread thought he was going to eliminate some problems by connecting only the signal lead between the pins on his RCA's and not connecting anything to the "ground" side of the RCA on one end...neither the shield nor the signal ground!

Sure would eliminate all hum or noise, along with all of the signal.......



Yes, no shielding or grounding for powercables and signal cables gives much better defined sound.
 
Aug 1, 2007 at 11:42 PM Post #36 of 61
Hah, lots of possibilities. I'll have to think about this, though I suspect it's a matter of grounding/bias or combination thereof.

Hmm... thinking cap rustles softly as op adjusts it slightly.
 
Aug 2, 2007 at 3:54 PM Post #38 of 61
Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I experimented extensively with cables, shielding and grounding and i can ya tell ya guys that i don't like grounding and shielding on signal cables and powercables.


Did you experiment with spacing the shield off the conductors?
 
Aug 2, 2007 at 4:16 PM Post #39 of 61
Quote:

Originally Posted by threEchelon /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Did you experiment with spacing the shield off the conductors?


You would need very thick cables for that and is virtually impossible! patrick experimented extensively with spacing ers paper and it needs alot space to work. This would yield tremendous thick cables, wich are unworkable. So, in that respect, no shielding is best. In time, i might try out some ers paper though.
 
Aug 2, 2007 at 6:13 PM Post #40 of 61
I think you have a bad cable especially from the symptom of no soundstage. There might be a kink in the cable/connector that cause a crosstalk between the two channels. The way the connector is plugged in caused the crosstalk to go on and off. Essentially it turns the stereo sound into mono with a resistive path.

I had this problem before. It was intermittent until I found the kink in the cable near the connector (too much bending).

Try measure the resistance between the two connectors. It should read infinite and not a value. Try also bending and moving the cable and see if there is any difference.
 
Aug 2, 2007 at 7:56 PM Post #41 of 61
Interesting discussion, though much of the science is a bit beyond me.
redface.gif


I'm one of those people who apparently have a tin ear but WANTS to believe in the sound differences between cables, power cords, etc. I never paid any attention to the direction of my cables, now I need to check them and see if direction makes a difference to the sound. Of course, if burn-in actually determines what direction the cables need to be hooked up, it may be too late, but perhaps it is a worth a try.
blink.gif


Holly
 
Aug 2, 2007 at 8:01 PM Post #42 of 61
Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif
it is quite simple actually. Most brands use at the source end shielding/grounding and not at the amp end of the cable! That's why some cables have directional or colourcoded tags on the cables. of course no cable has any direction perse!

It's all in the shielding/grounding of the cable, most of the time that way the cable sounds best.

You can see it if you screw open your plugs. At one end 3 wires and at the other only 2!



Bingo!
 
Aug 2, 2007 at 8:14 PM Post #43 of 61
Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif
it is quite simple actually. Most brands use at the source end shielding/grounding and not at the amp end of the cable! That's why some cables have directional or colourcoded tags on the cables. of course no cable has any direction perse!

It's all in the shielding/grounding of the cable, most of the time that way the cable sounds best.

You can see it if you screw open your plugs. At one end 3 wires and at the other only 2!



For twisted pair, shielded audio cables, that is indeed the case, or how it should be.

OTOH, the digital cable that connects my DVD player to my HT receiver, marketed by one of the major snake oil cable firms (purchased before I wised up) is a standard coax cable........braided shield over a single center conductor......and, you guessed it.......it has arrows on the cable showing how it should be connected between the source and receiver.

It was more expensive than the lesser one without the arrows, too.
blink.gif
frown.gif
rolleyes.gif
 
Aug 2, 2007 at 8:28 PM Post #44 of 61
Quote:

Originally Posted by sejarzo /img/forum/go_quote.gif
It was more expensive than the lesser one without the arrows, too.
blink.gif
frown.gif
rolleyes.gif



hey, I'd pay a good buck for a decent set of arrows on my cables . . . . maybe I can mod them
tongue.gif
 
Aug 2, 2007 at 9:42 PM Post #45 of 61
Lots of thoughtful answers. Thanks.

Anybody out there get overwhelmed by curiosity, yet? Pulled those wires apart?

Remember physicists ain't engineers. We just need to know the theory. You who are experimenters can prove or disprove.

Not me. Oh no. I'm just going to listen to the music and bask in the warm glow of knowing I'm not nuts. Never mind, that's the single malt...
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top