Cable Burn In with regard to Audio Directionality.
Jun 12, 2015 at 3:49 PM Post #16 of 302
You would know better than I would, as I have little to no knowledge or understanding of this stuff.


And that's precisely what much of this industry relies on. An extremely naive consumer who can then be "educated" with a whole lot of impressive sounding technobabble and gibberish.


I purchased the cables for aesthetic reasons. Like I said, I "think", and I'm a huge believer in placebo effects.


And that puts you ahead of the game. Too many "audiophiles" are in complete denial of their own humanity. You seem to have a pretty good head on your shoulders.


Not looking to start a war, I'm just trying to learn a little more.


Oh don't be a sissy! Be a man and at least lob a grenade or two now and then. :p

se
 
Jun 12, 2015 at 4:27 PM Post #17 of 302
What about different cable types? Copper vs silver? I'm not a believer in cable burn in, to me it doesn't make sense, but I think I hear a difference between copper and silver. I purchase cables for aesthetic reasons, I didn't believe I'd hear a difference between copper and silver but I did. I don't know it it's in my mind though.

 
A copper wire has the same conductivity as a silver wire that is one wire size smaller, IOW one notch higher wire gauge.
 
So, a 24 gauge copper wire is electrically identical to a 25 gauge silver wire.
 
Other than that, no difference and in terms of real world audible effects, no difference.
 
Jun 12, 2015 at 6:27 PM Post #18 of 302
A copper wire has the same conductivity as a silver wire that is one wire size smaller, IOW one notch higher wire gauge.


That's incorrect.

They will have the same resistance. But they will not have the same conductivity. Silver and copper have different conductivities and that doesn't change with wire gauge. It's only resistance that changes with gauge.

se
 
Jun 12, 2015 at 8:37 PM Post #19 of 302
   
Thanks Joe for joining the debate, this could be more interesting than I thought.
 
Can you please give us any insight you may have to why OCC Copper and a Teflon dielectric make a difference to the sound.
 
I know Fiio dont make the cables and in the Fiio case, cables are very short compared to Home hi-fi set-ups etc. (inter connects and speaker cables)
 
 
Oldmate, I believe it is a bit early for either side to be claiming a victory and we have not even agreed the duration of the first half before we change sides and play Devil's advocate!
 
I also refuse to pay silly money for cables, I try to buy smart and cut through the BS but I do still believe they can make some difference but not in a big way.
 
I am heading to a classical music concert today and I always choose to sit in a seat fairly close to the orchestra so I dont have to listen to those dredded speakers and cables that some Audio Engineers think make no difference to the sound because they know no better. LOL
 
p.s. Oldmate, I am afraid it might be pushing it a bit too far to rely on mag editors on that list of yours that we are looking to for guidence in this debate of ours, as we all know who pays their wages, I suppose we should not tarnish them all either?

Hey @Light - Man - I'm not after a victory. Just the truth. We owe it to each other and all other headfiers. 
 
Jun 13, 2015 at 1:36 AM Post #20 of 302
How about this for a crock of bull **** from a cable manufacturer;
 
 
There are many factors that make cable break-in necessary and many reasons why the results vary. If you measure a new cable with a voltmeter you will see a standing voltage because good dielectrics make poor conductors. They hold a charge much like a rubbed cat’s fur on a dry day. It takes a while for this charge to equalize in the cable. Better cables often take longer to break-in. The best "air dielectric" techniques, such as PFA tube construction, have large non-conductive surfaces to hold charge, much like the cat on a dry day.
 
Cables that do not have time to settle, such as musical instrument and microphone cables, often use conductive dielectrics like rubber or carbonized cotton to get around the problem. This dramatically reduces microphonics and settling time, but the other dielectric characteristics of these insulators are poor and they do not qualify sonically for high-end cables. Developing non-destructive techniques for reducing and equalizing the charge in excellent dielectric is a challenge in high end cables.
 
The high input impedance necessary in audio equipment makes uneven dielectric charge a factor. One reason settling time takes so long is we are linking the charge with mechanical stress/strain relationships. The physical make up of a cable is changed slightly by the charge and visa versa. It is like electrically charging the cat. The physical make up of the cat is changed by the charge. It is "frizzed" and the charge makes it's hair stand on end. "PFA Cats", cables and their dielectric, take longer to loose this charge and reach physical homeostasis.
 
The better the dielectric's insulation, the longer it takes to settle. A charge can come from simply moving the cable (Piezoelectric effect and simple friction), high voltage testing during manufacture, etc.  Cable that has a standing charge is measurably more microphonic and an uneven distribution of the charge causes something akin to structural return loss in a rising impedance system. When I took steps to eliminate these problems, break-in time was reduced and the cable sounded generally better. I know Bill Low at Audioquest has also taken steps to minimize this problem.
Mechanical stress is the root of a lot of the break-in phenomenon and it is not just a factor with cables. As a rule, companies set up audition rooms at high end audio shows a couple of days ahead of time to let them break in. The first day the sound is usually bad and it is very stressful. The last day sounds great. Mechanical stress in speaker cables, speaker cabinets, even the walls of the room, must be relaxed in order for the system to sound its best. This is the same phenomenon we experience in musical instruments. They sound much better after they have been played. Many musicians leave their instruments in front of a stereo that is playing to get them to warm up. This is very effective with a new guitar. Pianos are a stress and strain nightmare. Any change, even in temperature or humidity, will degrade their sound. A precisely tuned stereo system is similar.
You never really get all the way there, you sort of keep halving the distance to zero. Some charge is always retained. It is generally in the MV range in a well settled cable. Triboelectric noise in a cable is a function of stress and retained charge, which a good cable will release with both time and use. How much time and use is dependent on the design of the cable, materials used, treatment of the conductors during manufacture, etc.
 
There are many small tricks and ways of dealing with the problem. Years ago, I began using PFA tube "air dielectric" construction and the charge on the surface of the tubes became a real issue. I developed a fluid that adds a very slight conductivity to the surface of the dielectric. Treated cables actually have a  better measured dissipation factor and the sound of the cables improved substantially. It had been observed in mid eighties that many cables could be improved by wiping them with a anti-static cloth. Getting something to stick to PFA was the real challenge. We now use an anti-static fluid in all our cables and anti-static additives in the final jacketing material. This attention to charge has reduced break-in time and in general made the cable sound substantially better. This is due to the reduction of overall charge in the cable and the equalization of the distributed charge on the surface of conductor jacket.
 
It seems there are many infinitesimal factors that add up. Overtime you find one leads down a path to another. In short, if a dielectric surface in a cable has a high or uneven charge which dissipates with time or use, triboelectric and other noise in the cable will also reduce with time and use. This is the essence of break-in
 
A note of caution. Moving a cable will, to some degree, traumatize it. The amount of disturbance is relative to the materials used, the cable's design and the amount of disturbance. Keeping a very low level signal in the cable at all times helps. At a show, where time is short, you never turn the system off. I also believe the use of degaussing sweeps, such as on the Cardas Frequency Sweep and Burn-In Record (side 1, cut 2a) helps.
A small amount of energy is retained in the stored mechanical stress of the cable. As the cable relaxes, a certain amount of the charge is released, like in an electroscope. This is the electromechanical connection.
Many factors relating to a cable's break-in are found in the sonic character or signature of a cable. If we look closely at dielectrics we find a similar situation. The dielectric actually changes slightly as it charges and its dissipation factor is linked to its hardness. In part these changes are evidenced in the standing charge of the cable. A new cable, out of the bag, will have a standing charge when uncoiled. It can have as much as several hundred millivolts. If the cable is left at rest it will soon drop to under one hundred, but it will takes days of use in the system to fall to the teens and it never quite reaches zero. These standing charges appear particularly significant in low level interconnects to preamps with high impedance inputs.
 
The interaction of mechanical and electrical stress/strain variables in a cable are integral with the break-in, as well as the resonance of the cable. Many of the variables are lumped into a general category called triboelectric noise. Noise is generated in a cable as a function of the variations between the components of the cable. If a cable is flexed, moved, charged, or changed in any way, it will be a while before it is relaxed again. The symmetry of the cable's construction is a big factor here. Very careful design and execution by the manufacturer helps a lot. Very straight forward designs can be greatly improved with the careful choice of materials and symmetrical construction. Audioquest has built a large and successful high-end cable company around these principals.
 
The basic rules for the interaction of mechanical and electrical stress/strain variables holds true, regardless of scale or medium. Cables, cats, pianos and rooms all need to relax in order to be at their best. Constant attention to physical and environmental conditions, frequent use and the degaussing of a system help it achieve and maintain a relaxed state.
 
A note on breaking in box speakers, a process which seems to take forever. When I want to speed up the break-in process, I place the speakers face to face, with one speaker wired out of phase and play a surf CD through them. After about a week, I place them in their normal listening position and continue the process for three more days. After that, I play a degaussing sweep a few times. Then it is just a matter of playing music and giving them time.
 
 
Cardas, we are onto you and therefore you are officially moved to the shame bin. How dare you insult us with this crap!!
 
Jun 13, 2015 at 5:13 AM Post #21 of 302
That's incorrect.

They will have the same resistance. But they will not have the same conductivity. Silver and copper have different conductivities and that doesn't change with wire gauge. It's only resistance that changes with gauge.

se

 
 
That's true but  that is all about the fine points of the use of language. I admit it, there are ton of non-native speakers of English that do a far better job with it than I do.
 
Resistivity and Conductivity are the inverse of each other, and resistance and conductance are the inverse of each other.
 
The important point is that if you want a copper wire that conducts electricity like a silver wire, make the copper wire one wire gauge larger than the silver wire. That is a trivial difference in just about any real world situation.
 
All this hullabaloo about silver wire is just more hype.
 
Jun 13, 2015 at 5:24 AM Post #22 of 302
Thanks Guys, keep the posts coming, whether you believe that cables can make a difference or not to the sound including burn-in etc. and any theory, logic or explanation you may have to explain or support your view would be nice.
 
Also any advice you may have from you own experience regarding speaker cables and audio interconnects would be welcome.
 
Oldmate, I had a quick read (will read later) of your last post and even someone with a very-very open mind would have difficulty accepting much of that pseudo Science BS mentioned by the cable manufacturer.
 
I will post more when I get a chance and perhaps the odd grenade or two into the works as "requested" (I love them also) LOL
 
Jun 13, 2015 at 5:32 AM Post #23 of 302
Well I'm waiting for any theory, logic or explanation of why cable burn in would happen. Has one been posted?
  Thanks Guys, keep the posts coming, whether you believe that cables can make a difference or not to the sound including burn-in etc. and any theory, logic or explanation you may have to explain your view would be nice.
 
Also any advice you may have from you own experience regarding speaker cables and audio interconnects would be welcome.
 
Oldmate, I had a quick read (will read later) of your last post and even someone with a very-very open mind would have difficulty accepting much of that pseudo Science BS mentioned by the cable manufacturer.
 
I will post more when I get a chance and perhaps the odd grenade or two into the works as "requested" (I love them also) LOL

 
Jun 13, 2015 at 5:41 AM Post #24 of 302
  Well I'm waiting for any theory, logic or explanation of why cable burn in would happen. Has one been posted?

 
Cable burn in gives dealers a tool for offering things like a 30 day free trial, and then having an excuse when the audiophile wants to bring the item back for the promised full refund.
 
Jun 13, 2015 at 6:23 AM Post #25 of 302
   
Cable burn in gives dealers a tool for offering things like a 30 day free trial, and then having an excuse when the audiophile wants to bring the item back for the promised full refund.

 
I wasn't being serious. Perhaps I should have put a "I won't hold my breath" at the end. :)
 
That verbose wall of text from Cardas is just about long enough to dissuade most people of a scientific/engineering bent from wasting their time explaining it's nonsense. Quite good marketing really.
 
Jun 13, 2015 at 10:43 AM Post #27 of 302
That's true but  that is all about the fine points of the use of language. I admit it, there are ton of non-native speakers of English that do a far better job with it than I do.


Fine points? You said you were an EE, didn't you?


Resistivity and Conductivity are the inverse of each other, and resistance and conductance are the inverse of each other.


Yes. Your point?


The important point is that if you want a copper wire that conducts electricity like a silver wire, make the copper wire one wire gauge larger than the silver wire.


Sure. But why confuse a novice by bringing conductivity/conductance into the discussion?


All this hullabaloo about silver wire is just more hype.


No argument from me.

se
 
Jun 13, 2015 at 2:18 PM Post #28 of 302
What about different cable types? Copper vs silver? I'm not a believer in cable burn in, to me it doesn't make sense, but I think I hear a difference between copper and silver. I purchase cables for aesthetic reasons, I didn't believe I'd hear a difference between copper and silver but I did. I don't know it it's in my mind though.

 
It is expectation bias.  Silver is rarer and more expensive than copper so you expect it to work "better."  A bias controlled comparison will clear that up for you.  Silver does conduct electricity somewhat better than copper so to have the same measured performance the copper wire would need to be slightly thicker.  But neither one has any effect on the sound.
 
Jun 13, 2015 at 2:33 PM Post #29 of 302
I honestly went I with no expectation bias. I'm not a believer in burn in, nor did I think I'd hear any difference between the cables. I openly admit I can not hear any difference between my AK240 and ak120ii, or my ak100ii. I'm brutally honest with myself.
 

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