[TwelveTrains]

I'm just gonna chime in to say cables do not make a difference.

But I do think it's good that people talk about these things and test possibilities and such. If something makes a difference, how would it ever be discovered if people were not constantly testing things and exploring different ideas.

 

[arnyk]

   
It's simple really. They believe they hear a difference / improvement over time. No amount of technical explanation to the contrary will convince them otherwise. It's like trying to convince a believer that there is no god. Your scientific arguments will never trump their beliefs.

 
I suspect that many of them do hear an improvement over time  because that is how human preferences are known by science to work.  Listening pleasure is largely based on familiarity.
 
The illusion is usually that the added pleasure comes from the new cables. Many times they make no reliable difference at all, but listening pleasure keeps increasing  because that is how we work.

 

[StanD]

   
I suspect that many of them do hear an improvement over time  because that is how human preferences are known by science to work.  Listening pleasure is largely based on familiarity.
 
The illusion is usually that the added pleasure comes from the new cables. Many times they make no reliable difference at all, but listening pleasure keeps increasing  because that is how we work.

They believe it gets better and so it does. Isn't that what in psychology is called autosuggestion.

 

[arnyk]

  They believe it gets better and so it does. Isn't that what in psychology is called autosuggestion.

 
Right.
 
One point is that a suggestion that the music sounds better (at least to a point) just happens naturally, even in the absence of any suggestions.

 

[StanD]

   
Right.
 
One point is that a suggestion that the music sounds better (at least to a point) just happens naturally, even in the absence of any suggestions.

Autosuggestion is akin to self hypnosis, one convinces themself. Some people use this to quit smoking.

 

[xionc]

I would say cable burn in is real - but it's not the cables that are burning in. We're mentally accomodating to a new habitant of our hi-fi system. Sole new presence is enough to change our perception of sound. It takes time to enjoy music again with a peaceful mindset, albeit as always prone to disturbances and suspicion. But that's just the very core of audiophile way of living - based on sound perception and subjective feelings.

 

[StanD]

  I would say cable burn in is real - but it's not the cables that are burning in. We're mentally accomodating to a new habitant of our hi-fi system. Sole new presence is enough to change our perception of sound. It takes time to enjoy music again with a peaceful mindset, albeit as always prone to disturbances and suspicion. But that's just the very core of audiophile way of living - based on sound perception and subjective feelings.

It's not real for me.

 

[xionc]

I did not say it's real in every case.
 
P.K.Dick said "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
 
It's much too narrow to encompass my view of reality, because love isn't real in accordance with the above quote.

 

[dvw]

If cable burn in is real, then we are in a big mess of troubles. Audio is low frequency application and it is not critical.  But if cable burn in is real, that means the electrical characteristic changed somehow overtime with usage. Communication cables are specified for very specific applications; satellite, phone wire, server and even monitoring of patients in ICU. A variation as simple as impedance could cause these applications to fail.Do we go back to space to change the cable every few years? Lay down new cables every few years. This will be extremely expensive. If audio cables are the only ones that change, (even when the audio is encoded), I think the change is not due to cable burn in. If you are using wireless, does that mean the air needs to be burned in?

 

[sonitus mirus]

  If you are using wireless, does that mean the air needs to be burned in?

 
Certainly not, but perhaps an audiophile humidifier or ionizer could be used to improve the air and make the signal crisper, fuller, and more detailed.  Naturally this change would not happen immediately, but only after several weeks of continuous usage that allowed the walls, floor, and ceiling to become permeated with the improved atmospheric audio/wi-fi layers.

 

[castleofargh]

  If cable burn in is real, then we are in a big mess of troubles. Audio is low frequency application and it is not critical.  But if cable burn in is real, that means the electrical characteristic changed somehow overtime with usage. Communication cables are specified for very specific applications; satellite, phone wire, server and even monitoring of patients in ICU. A variation as simple as impedance could cause these applications to fail.Do we go back to space to change the cable every few years? Lay down new cables every few years. This will be extremely expensive. If audio cables are the only ones that change, (even when the audio is encoded), I think the change is not due to cable burn in. If you are using wireless, does that mean the air needs to be burned in?

but you're talking about all those stuff that are just electricity and electronic. you forget that sound is more than what can be measured and thus more than electricity. also audio cables aren't electrical cables. else why do they cost so much?
 
and of course, one of the most important fact. death and decay have been conquered, only burn-in remains. that effect of time when any and all audio stuff become better by the hour. if only my body was an audio product! "hey GF, you can't leave, I become good after 4000h of burn in, everybody knows that. I will become more natural, smoother and more pleasing. my soundstage will open up just like my chakras."

 

[jcx]

fun article to compare many "audiophile arguments" against: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gish_Gallop of course the rest of the site is good too

 

[arnyk]

  I would say cable burn in is real - but it's not the cables that are burning in. We're mentally accomodating to a new habitant of our hi-fi system. Sole new presence is enough to change our perception of sound. It takes time to enjoy music again with a peaceful mindset, albeit as always prone to disturbances and suspicion. But that's just the very core of audiophile way of living - based on sound perception and subjective feelings.

 
That is IME probably the best Scientific argument.
 
There's a book that lays this out in more detail and with more scientific support than many can stand or get, but if you follow the bouncing ball all the way through you have to give the author his due:
 
"This Is Your Brain On Music"  by Levitin. 

 

[dvw]

 
but you're talking about all those stuff that are just electricity and electronic. you forget that sound is more than what can be measured and thus more than electricity. also audio cables aren't electrical cables. else why do they cost so much?
 

 
Maybe the reason why they are so expensive is precisely they cannot be measured or verified. The QA process involved might be hiring someone to listen to the cable and measure the soundstage with a ruler from their head to make sure they meet the spec. Or maybe it's a rip off?