[ChicaneBT]

Quote:

 
OT:  Okay, just wondering if Locking Down was subsequently released online as a legal (purchaseable) download somewhere.  Thanks!

OT: If you can't find it with Google I don't think it's out there. You can always ask this question at the http://forums.chicanemusic.com/ .

 

[ChicaneBT]

Why don't people perform some tests on their own if they want to prove ODAC's designer wrong. The critics are very passive all in all at least speaking in reproducible objective measurements. I think it's only good to raise questions about this product, some rightfully so other maybe just to muddle the discussion, but to prove your point you need those objective measurements. Without that it only proves what the designer of ODAC says is correct. Most audiophiles are too subjective.

 

[MrGreen]

Quote:

 Some audiophiles are too subjective.

 
Sorry. Feel free to look at my older posts telling LCD-2 owners to shove it because their headphone has a measurablypoor response curve, as well as many other posts I have made in the sound science forum.
 
 
 
Quote:

Why don't people perform some tests on their own if they want to prove ODAC's designer wrong.

 
 By purchasing a piece of equipment I have no desire in owning because my dac is objectively better in every respect? You know, MEASURABLY better?
 
Is it not nwavguys idea that the manufacturers should be performing detailed tests- to levels that are not available to ordinary consumers? Or they should, at least be accountable for their own products objective performance?

So where are his measurements that I have mentioned, or the 16bit measurement he promised a long time ago now? Or the reactive load measurements he promised even further ago? Better yet, why not just some information on the types of loads he used for the measurement (loopback, resistive, whatever?)


I don't wish to prove anyone wrong. I haven't said anything nwavguy has said is wrong. I have said he is selective about the truth, and also does not follow his own supposed ethics. I have also called into question his motives and character, particularly when he argues against people producing items. These are truths, by the way, which he says he expects from all manufacturers, but has not personally provided. Feel free to see my other post.
 
My favourite part about this whole "objectivist" ordeal is that it aims to stamp out the placebo effect. Which by the way has been demosntrably shown to imrpove health, perceptions (including audio) in an almost innumerable number of studies. The power which - when you incorporate valves - which CAN be transparent - can be great. Consider, for example that two sugar pills are demonstrably a better a placebo than one, and a saline injection is even better than that.
 
What he is doing is, in essence, pandering to the misinformed (That's you, by the way. No offense).

 

[TMRaven]

Quote:

 
I have a MS2 now and will be getting the ODAC next week. I look to compare them. but I honestly don't expect major revelations and I doubt I will be writing a lot of flowery prose about the differences I may hear. But I will be coming back to this thread once I do have the two in house.

 
Thank you.  I do not expect a drastic difference either, and by all means if you don't find much difference, then tell it like it is.  The last thing I-- or a lot of other honest head-fi'ers would want, would be exaggerated statements.

 

[Girls Generation]

Reading the many argumentative posts here, I'd like to just mention a couple things:
 
1. If you haven't heard it (higher end stuff) don't think you can go claiming your gear is better, just on the basis of data measurements taken by someone you have never met or talked to.
    1b. If you HAVE heard it, SAY it, instead of whining that just because you haven't claimed to have heard higher end DACs doesn't mean you have not actually heard them. We're not oracles.
       1b2. Don't you think you can go defending other people that you don't know that just because they haven't claimed to have heard higher end DACs doesn't mean they haven't actually heard them. Again, we're not oracles.
 
2. For you guys who are defending higher end DACs, sure you have good merit to be defending the higher end DACs' sound based off the fact that many of these guys are challenging claiming that the ODAC sounds better without either claiming to have heard said higher end DAC, or without hearing for themselves. However,
    2b. do realize that this DAC costs $150... There is really no need to be actually comparing $1000-$7000 DACs in such a serious manner, because the fact is that this is $150 and if it sounds even close to such high end DACs, EVEN if it still lacks "40%" of an difference that could not be represented by data (which actually matters here in the audiophile world, gentlemen) then, in my opinion, the argument has reached a total stalemate.
 
If Brat has heard both, and says the ODAC is missing around 40% (though his DAC is $7000 by going on what someone else said, and assuming he has accurately dB matched, and eliminated any other source of bias), then that's probably what it is, because there are such things called "brief comparisons" and "impressions" that are essential to this hobby, and we all should be appreciating his honest opinion.
 
 
tl;dr - You guys are arguing when there is no argument to be arguing about.

 

[Girls Generation]

Well, perfect neutral, flat response curve doesn't mean it's the best. If you like it, it's probably the best for you, but some of us like to enjoy the music and get lost in it. What i'm interpreting from this post is, anything that doesn't have a perfectly neutral response curve is garbage. No offense, but this, your, opinion is, ironically, in my opinion, garbage. No hate intended; just blatantly stating my opinion of your opinion.
 
Of course, I'm assuming your saying that a measurably poor response curve means not flat/neutral. (Correct use of "your")
Quote:

 
Sorry. Feel free to look at my older posts telling LCD-2 owners to shove it because their headphone has a measurablypoor response curve, as well as many other posts I have made in the sound science forum.
 

 

[MrGreen]

Hello.
 
I don't particularly wish to go into detail about the nature of neutral/flat for headphones in a thread about dacs. Suffice it to say, that although I PREFER neutral/flat, there are so many variations for it that it begins to lose meaning. However, if people do prefer a particular sound, I think it should be added at the final end of the chain. This includes recording.
Clean in -> However you want out.
Clean dac -> Clean amp -> However you want for the speakers/headphones
 
What I am trying to discuss here is that I have taken the measurement path for a long time, in a fairly agressive manner. This is something that those who praise nwavguy - who frankly has produced an ordinary dac which provides near meaningless benefits over other cheaper dacs, including pre-existing dacs, and refuses to publish useful information about the measurements he touts as all-important for amps and dacs (which I personally agree with), preach repeatedly. Something that many headfiers have done for a long time.
 
The LCD-2 is not a bad headphone. It is not to my taste. (It is also not neutral)
 
Thank you for your post
 
Quote:

Well, perfect neutral, flat response curve doesn't mean it's the best. If you like it, it's probably the best for you, but some of us like to enjoy the music and get lost in it. What i'm interpreting from this post is, anything that doesn't have a perfectly neutral response curve is garbage. No offense, but this, your, opinion is, ironically, in my opinion, garbage. No hate intended; just blatantly stating my opinion of your opinion.
 
Of course, I'm assuming your saying that a measurably poor response curve means not flat/neutral. (Correct use of "your")

 

[ChicaneBT]

I don't know how to unquote it doesn't seem to work with BBcode.
 
Quote:

Sorry. Feel free to look at my older posts telling LCD-2 owners to shove it because their headphone has a measurablypoor response curve, as well as many other posts I have made in the sound science forum.
 
Quote:

Why don't people perform some tests on their own if they want to prove ODAC's designer wrong.

 
By purchasing a piece of equipment I have no desire in owning because my dac is objectively better in every respect? You know, MEASURABLY better?

 
You don't have to get mad by shouting. It's a sign of weakness in the discussion. If the DAC you own is really better please put the results here so everyone can form their opinion. Maybe this DAC sounds very well to your ears

.
 
Is it not nwavguys idea that the manufacturers should be performing detailed tests- to levels that are not available to ordinary consumers? Or they should, at least be accountable for their own products objective performance? So where are his measurements that I have mentioned, or the 16bit measurement he promised a long time ago now? Or the reactive load measurements he promised even further ago? Better yet, why not just some information on the types of loads he used for the measurement (loopback, resistive, whatever?)
 
Why aren't you happy with the measurements he has done? Are they wrong? Prove it. Are they misleading? Prove it. Would your measurements prove weakness in the design? Perform your tests to prove there is indeed a weakness in the design. Please do tell me as I'm the misinformed. What can these 16bit measurements show, or better even all the measurements you miss?
 
I don't wish to prove anyone wrong. I haven't said anything nwavguy has said is wrong. I have said he is selective about the truth, and also does not follow his own supposed ethics. I have also called into question his motives and character, particularly when he argues against people producing items. These are truths, by the way, which he says he expects from all manufacturers, but has not personally provided. Feel free to see my other post.
 
I don't think it's prohibited to argue with others in the business or about their products especially when costumers are unhappy with that product. I see you call a lot of things in question which I actually think is a good thing in the discussion. But only calling things into question is not enough to take a stand towards a product which is maybe perfectly great, you do need some valid arguments to be able to draw a conclusion.
 
 
My favourite part about this whole "objectivist" ordeal is that it aims to stamp out the placebo effect. Which by the way has been demosntrably shown to imrpove health, perceptions (including audio) in an almost innumerable number of studies. The power which - when you incorporate valves - which CAN be transparent - can be great. Consider, for example that two sugar pills are demonstrably a better a placebo than one, and a saline injection is even better than that.
 
It would get to tiresome to get in all your objections about the designer (and his philosophy). Please do take it up with him.
 
What he is doing is, in essence, pandering to the misinformed (That's you, by the way. No offense).
 
No offense taken.  But let's keep it civil.
[/quote]

 

[Girls Generation]

Thank you for the response. I won't comment on nwavguy or anything measurement since I'm not really a measurements person and don't really care as long as it sounds good to me. Ironically, I haven't found the gear that really sounds perfect to my ears yet, meaning the ODAC/O2 doesn't deliver enough. 
 
However, your previous post said LCD-2 owners should "shove it" because of its measurably poor frequency response. Your second post contradicts this by saying any color should be added to the final end of the chain which, you even stated, could be headphones, in this case the LCD-2. I'm a bit confused, assuming your first post was not meant to be sarcastic.
Quote:

...I think it should be added at the final end of the chain. This includes recording.
Clean in -> However you want out.
Clean dac -> Clean amp -> However you want for the speakers/headphones

 

[TMRaven]

What happened to the O2 impressions? 

 

[Girls Generation]

MrGreen has mentioned several times that Nwavguy's measurements are not wrong, but he's selective about what measurements to post, which, in a sense, is lying as well, since he's wanting it to be misleading.
 
Just gargling up what MrGreen has said to clear up a point. I have no interest in this measurements argument; I like my ODAC... it saved me $$$.
Quote:

Why aren't you happy with the measurements he has done? Are they wrong? Prove it. Are they misleading? Prove it. Would your measurements prove weakness in the design? Perform your tests to prove there is indeed a weakness in the design. Please do tell me as I'm the misinformed. What can these 16bit measurements show, or better even all the measurements you miss?
 

 

[MrGreen]

1. I've already posted RMAA and several other types of measurements for the DAC I use on head-fi. I will not post them here because I do not wish to clutter the thread. The measurements are higher across the board. Granted it is a $500 DAC, however it includes 12 balanced ins and 12 balanced outs.
2. He has omitted basic, but essential/important detail. I have already described why in previous posts in this thread. For the sake of clarity, I will not repost them a third time.
3. I do not have to prove anything for his measurements. I do not wish to say that they are wrong, nor have I ever implied that. Please use your head and understanding of language to understand the simple premise I have repeated consistently: nwavguy has not posted information that are essential to truly understanding the REAL WORLD performance of an amplifier. Some of which (eg. reactive load for all headphones) are unreasonable to expect. Others which are not (eg. 16 bit performance, example reactive load performance, what load type he was using).
4. 16 bit performance will show how the dac performs taking 16 bit performance (without padding etc), outputting a 16 bit conversion. Which I presume (having not looked specifically at the devices architecture in detail), many are doing.
5. I am not arguing against the product produced. I am arguing against the method in which it has been produced (potential plagiarism of the coffee, and so on).

 

[MrGreen]

Quote:

MrGreen has mentioned several times that Nwavguy's measurements are not wrong, but he's selective about what measurements to post, which, in a sense, is lying as well, since he's wanting it to be misleading.
 
Just gargling up what MrGreen has said to clear up a point. I have no interest in this measurements argument; I like my ODAC... it saved me $$$.

 
Excellent. The worth of a dac for playback of something as simple as CD playback is often hyper-inflated in places like this.

Particularly when compared to the difference a headphone will make.

It always gives me a headache when people consider an outboard dac and amp (even a soundcard) for headphones that are the problem. It's happening with the ODAC no doubt as well. I'm sure there are people out there rocking HD201s or HD558s, who can't wait to get their hands on the odac and o2.
 
 
FWIW; the "LCD2 owners should shove it" replies I made years ago (approximately around launch) was actually due to LCD-2 owners calling it "the most neutral headphone", etc. Which is strictly not true.

 

[Parall3l]

Wow, just found this thread. Interesting topics being discussed here. So the ODAC is not exactly as legit as it seems? I heard similar things about the O2 as well.

@MrGreen it's a shame I didn't meet you and the others at the Perth meet.

 

[MrGreen]

Quote:

Wow, just found this thread. Interesting topics being discussed here. So the ODAC is not exactly as legit as it seems? I heard similar things about the O2 as well.

@MrGreen it's a shame I didn't meet you and the others at the Perth meet.

As per my post in the thread (I missed the event due to absence from head-fi), you can PM me if you're interested in hearing my setup.

I'm sure the ODAC is exactly what it appears to be, and everyone should feel the same - presuming they trust the measurements posted. I personally have no reason to doubt the measurements. The problem is that nwavguy does not practice what he preaches to an adequate level (considering some of the things I ask require 0 work from nwavguy, or are easier to find than things he has already provided). I'm also sure it's a relatively cheap dac (though I am almost certain it could be cheaper), that handles CD audio pretty competently, whether 24bit with DSPs of some sort, or actual 16bit.
 
In my eyes, not providing load information or reactive load measurements is almost as bad as that guy from SuperSize Me refusing to publish his food logs. Both suspicious (though I would consider the SuperSize Me guy a flatout liar, and I am sure NWAVGUY is just busy with whatever).