[fiascogarcia]

 
It won't work unless everything is balanced including every plug along the way, this is something I have had to unfortunately learn the hard way, I'm using the AK 100ll balanced to the balanced amp ALO MK3B+ and plenty of interconnects along the way, when you get it right you will know.  
I am currently using the HD650 in my office so portable is the only way to go.
 
A balanced cable and on the HD600 will sound great!

What would your "plenty of interconnects"  be other than the IC cable from DAP to MK3 and the headphone cable?

 

[threephi]

   
So, if I ask the cabling guy to terminate it in a 4 pole 2.5mm stereo plug as I want a balanced cable, he should know what to do, right?  Or should I specifically mention the cable (that attaches to the headphones) needs to be also balanced?  Will an unbalanced cable that terminates in a 4 pole 2.5mm stereo plug that's plugged into the AK units balanced input damage it?
 

Balanced cabling needs two wires for each can or monitor... left gets two wires straight from the plug, and right gets two different wires straight from the plug.  So just changing the connector on an un-balanced cable won't work, since that has only three wires.  The cable guy should definitely know what to do, just tell him exactly what equipment it is meant for.  There's a diagram in the manual for the pin assignments actually, so at least they seem to have gotten that right

 

[dpastern]

  Balanced cabling needs two wires for each can or monitor... left gets two wires straight from the plug, and right gets two different wires straight from the plug.  So just changing the connector on an un-balanced cable won't work, since that has only three wires.  The cable guy should definitely know what to do, just tell him exactly what equipment it is meant for.  There's a diagram in the manual for the pin assignments actually, so at least they seem to have gotten that right

 
Thanks.  I think that makes sense.  So, in an unbalanced cable, left only gets 1 wire and right only gets one wire, correct?  I presume ground is involved too?  I just checked the AK120 II user guide, yep it has a pint out.  I'll screen shot that and send it to him, to be absolutely sure it's done right.  So, balanced cabling will double the cable cost, correct, since it has 2 runs.  
 
I've read that 2.5mm adaptors are very flimsy and soldering them and keeping a solid, reliable join is not easy.  I can't solder to save my life and don't really want to learn, do you think this would be an ongoing reliability issue, especially since it'd be used on the go for public transport commutes and the headphones would be going into a soft pouch when my commute is finished etc.  I'm generally careful, and gentle, but delicate things can break with the most careful hands...
 
Now thinking is it really worth it...I've never used balanced before and I have no idea what to expect and if it's really an improvement, or a worthwhile improvement...
 
I did originally specify a right angled 4 pole 2.5mm adaptor but it seems that they're not very common at all.  I guess if I could solder to save my life, this would probably be a dead easy job...*sigh*

 

[MadGTI]

   
I wonder how much better balanced mode really is...
 
 
I don't believe EQ operates in optical out mode.
 
 
See above - I really wonder how much better it is.  I've just lashed out on a pair of Sennheiser HD600 headphones to use with my AK 120 II when travelling to work etc.  Since the stock cable is 3M long, I'm getting a 1.2M cable made up for me and I've asked the cabling guy to terminate the cable into a 2.5mm 4 pole stereo adaptor.  I presume that that will allow the HD600 to operate in balanced mode, and that I can then use the 2.5mm input?  Correct?
 
Dave

In 2.5 balanced out, vocal is more forward and real. Sound stage is wider and reflecting the real recording studio size. Instrument separation and location is more or less same as 3.5 PO, but only a little bit more from left to right. Better sound resonance and more air. Overall the sound is very clear and  not so warm as 3.5 PO.

 

[dpastern]

  In 2.5 balanced out, vocal is more forward and real. Sound stage is wider and reflecting the real recording studio size. Instrument separation and location is more or less same as 3.5 PO, but only a little bit more from left to right. Better sound resonance and more air. Overall the sound is very clear and  not so warm as 3.5 PO.

 
well that sounds like what I want to achieve.  I do find the v1.11 firmware took away a fair bit of the AK 120's "air" to be honest and I'm not a fan of the new sonic signature.

 

[Dopaminer]

   
That's handy to know, thanks.  I was thinking of just plugging in the AK unit via a 3.5mm ==> 2 RCA Y cable to a RCA input on my preamp.  That should work as far as I understand, correct me if I'm wrong.

That will work; I do it also, with a 3.5mm > XLR cable.  In this case, you will be listening to the dac in your AK.  
With optical out (also from the 3.5mm port) you will not be listening to the AK`s dac.   
 

   
So, if I ask the cabling guy to terminate it in a 4 pole 2.5mm stereo plug as I want a balanced cable, he should know what to do, right?  Or should I specifically mention the cable (that attaches to the headphones) needs to be also balanced?  Will an unbalanced cable that terminates in a 4 pole 2.5mm stereo plug that's plugged into the AK units balanced input damage it?

 
There are a thousand explanations on this issue, many by people much more knowledgable than me. Some of them are too technical for me and/or make no sense.   You seem to be at the same stage I was at recently, so I will share my understanding.  Two things: 
1.
 For a headphone cable to `be balanced`, there must be 4 wires all the way to the termination.  Some `phones combine the wires at some point in the cable, usually at the Y-split or, or at the cups if the cable is 1-sided.  Compare these two iem pics: First, my JVC workout specials, the FXZ2000.  Notice how there are 2 cables entering the Y-split but only one coming out? One wire from each of the cables have been fused, meaning after the Y-split the cable only contains 3 wires and therefore cannot be `balanced`.  A balanced connector can be attached, but this would only be done for connectivity, not to modify SQ.  

 
This is my CKR9 : 

You can see the two cables from the drivers, each with 2 wires, continue all the way to the 3.5mm plug. The cable housings are simply linked together by the Y-split; the internal wires are not affected This cable can be re-terminated to `real` balanced, with iimpact on the SQ.  (Whether or not you can hear that impact is of course a never-ending debate).  
 
You just need to confirm if your `phone cable has 4 wires all the way to the plug, or not.  
 
2.
The second point I learned is that the 2.5 TRRS plug is not uncommon in other areas of electronics, however AK`s wiring pattern apparently is uncommon.  So, you really have to confirm that the cable guy knows the correct wiring scheme.  You could damage the AK if the wiring is wrong, I think.   This: 
 

 
 
Good luck.  
d

 

[Samuel777]

 
I'm assuming your HP cable will need to be balanced as well

How do we know if a cable is balanced ? I'm a bit confused now.
When you have a cable with a balanced 4 PIN XLS termination is that cable balanced, could you confirm that ?
thx

 

[Dopaminer]

 
How do we know if a cable is balanced ? I'm a bit confused now.
When you have a cable with a balanced 4 PIN XLS termination is that cable balanced, could you confirm that ?
thx

Please see my explanation above.   A cable can have an XLR4 termination and still not `be balanced`.  Similarly, some amps have XLR4 or 2x XLR3 output, but are not balanced.  Phones and amps will sometimes have these connectors only for the sake of convenience. 

 

[fiascogarcia]

 
How do we know if a cable is balanced ? I'm a bit confused now.
When you have a cable with a balanced 4 PIN XLS termination is that cable balanced, could you confirm that ?
thx

 
 

  Please see my explanation above.   A cable can have an XLR4 termination and still not `be balanced`.  Similarly, some amps have XLR4 or 2x XLR3 output, but are not balanced.  Phones and amps will sometimes have these connectors only for the sake of convenience. 

If you buy a headphone cable, and it's terminated in something other than a TRS jack, chances will be pretty damn good that it's a balanced headphone cable. I might understand a DIY job with a 4 pin connector that might not be properly wired, but otherwise, for headphone cables, a 4 pin jack, or RSA, or TRRS is going to be for a balanced connection, especially in the portable world.

 

[Dopaminer]

   
 

If you buy a headphone cable, and it's terminated in something other than a TRS jack, chances will be pretty damn good that it's a balanced headphone cable. I might understand a DIY job with a 4 pin connector that might not be properly wired, but otherwise, for headphone cables, a 4 pin jack, or RSA, or TRRS is going to be for a balanced connection, especially in the portable world.

Yes, I totally agree.  

 

[dpastern]

  Please see my explanation above.   A cable can have an XLR4 termination and still not `be balanced`.  Similarly, some amps have XLR4 or 2x XLR3 output, but are not balanced.  Phones and amps will sometimes have these connectors only for the sake of convenience. 

 
I was thinking the exact same thing.

 

[dpastern]

  That will work; I do it also, with a 3.5mm > XLR cable.  In this case, you will be listening to the dac in your AK.  
With optical out (also from the 3.5mm port) you will not be listening to the AK`s dac.   
 
 
There are a thousand explanations on this issue, many by people much more knowledgable than me. Some of them are too technical for me and/or make no sense.   You seem to be at the same stage I was at recently, so I will share my understanding.  Two things: 
1.
 For a headphone cable to `be balanced`, there must be 4 wires all the way to the termination.  Some `phones combine the wires at some point in the cable, usually at the Y-split or, or at the cups if the cable is 1-sided.  Compare these two iem pics: First, my JVC workout specials, the FXZ2000.  Notice how there are 2 cables entering the Y-split but only one coming out? One wire from each of the cables have been fused, meaning after the Y-split the cable only contains 3 wires and therefore cannot be `balanced`.  A balanced connector can be attached, but this would only be done for connectivity, not to modify SQ.  

 
This is my CKR9 : 

You can see the two cables from the drivers, each with 2 wires, continue all the way to the 3.5mm plug. The cable housings are simply linked together by the Y-split; the internal wires are not affected This cable can be re-terminated to `real` balanced, with iimpact on the SQ.  (Whether or not you can hear that impact is of course a never-ending debate).  
 
You just need to confirm if your `phone cable has 4 wires all the way to the plug, or not.  
 
2.
The second point I learned is that the 2.5 TRRS plug is not uncommon in other areas of electronics, however AK`s wiring pattern apparently is uncommon.  So, you really have to confirm that the cable guy knows the correct wiring scheme.  You could damage the AK if the wiring is wrong, I think.   This: 
 

 
 
Good luck.  
d

 
Thank you!  I'm feeling more and more nervous about balanced.  A question - the 2.5mm plugs - are there different types?  You mention TRRS, is it possible to get a stereo 4 pole 2.5mm cable that's not TRRS?  So, should I tell the cabling guy that the 2.5mm adaptor needs to be TRRS?  I presume that as long as a get a TRRS 2.5mm stereo plug, he can wire it as per the AK wiring diagram above, correct?  
 
My next question is where the cable plugs into the Sennheiser drive sections - the pins on those connectors are only 2 pin.  There is no provision for 4 pin from what I can see.  So, if I'm understanding correctly, I could never have a balanced connection for these headphones...

 

[dpastern]

This is interesting reading, especially the quotes in post #2:
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/576339/balanced-vs-single-ended-poll
 
Dave

 

[fiascogarcia]

   
Thank you!  I'm feeling more and more nervous about balanced.  A question - the 2.5mm plugs - are there different types?  You mention TRRS, is it possible to get a stereo 4 pole 2.5mm cable that's not TRRS?  So, should I tell the cabling guy that the 2.5mm adaptor needs to be TRRS?  I presume that as long as a get a TRRS 2.5mm stereo plug, he can wire it as per the AK wiring diagram above, correct?  
 
My next question is where the cable plugs into the Sennheiser drive sections - the pins on those connectors are only 2 pin.  There is no provision for 4 pin from what I can see.  So, if I'm understanding correctly, I could never have a balanced connection for these headphones...

You can get a 2.5 mm plug that is not a TRRS (tip,ring,ring,sleeve), usually they're TRS(tip,ring,sleeve).  Looking at the post, the TRS has 3 sections created by the thin grooves around the post, and the TRRS has 4. I believe the 4 pole and TRRS are the same thing, they have 2 positives and 2 grounds (balanced), as opposed to 2 positives and a shared ground/negative (unbalanced).  And yes, a TRRS plug can be configured for an AK balanced connection per Dopaminer's diagram.  The connectors to the headphone drivers only requires one positive and 1 negative per side (2 pins), it's the same for balanced or unbalanced.  You can have a balanced cable for your Senns.

 

[dpastern]

 
I believe it's the same thing, they have 2 positives and 2 grounds (balanced), as opposed to 2 positives and a shared ground/negative (unbalanced).  And yes, a TRRS plug can be configured for an AK balanced connection.  The connector to the headphones only requires one positive and 1 negative per side (2 pins), it's the same for balanced or unbalanced.  You can have a balanced cable for your Senns.

 
Thanks.  I'm still not getting why it has to be essentially 4 cables/pins at one end, but 2 pins at where it connects to the driver assembly on the headphones only has to be 2.  That doesn't make sense to this old Dinosaur!!!